Unf*cking Work for Women with Michelle Minnikin

In the captivating Episode 19 of "The Elephant in the Org," titled "Unf*cking Work for Women with Michelle Minnikin," hosts Danny Gluch, Cacha Dora, and Marion Anderson delve into the pervasive challenges women face in the workplace. Joined by guest Michelle Minnikin, an acclaimed author, organizational psychologist, and workplace culture expert, this episode explores how societal conditioning and coercive control mechanisms contribute to the systemic barriers hindering women's professional advancement.

Michelle shares insights from her latest book, "Good Girl Deprogramming," discussing the detrimental effects of societal expectations on women from a young age and how these effects permeate professional environments. The conversation also ventures into the realm of "work piracy," a concept introduced by Minnikin as a strategy for challenging and navigating through inefficient and unjust workplace practices.

Key discussion points include the "Goldilocks zone" of behavior for women in the workplace, the systemic challenges to professional advancement, and practical strategies for empowering change within organizations to foster a more inclusive and supportive work culture for women.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in understanding and addressing the deep-rooted issues women face professionally. Michelle's perspectives offer a roadmap for individuals and organizations seeking to make work less burdensome and more equitable for women.

Tune in to this enlightening discussion on The Elephant in the Org's website or your favorite podcast platform. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review to share your thoughts on this critical conversation.

Connect with Michelle Minnikin on LinkedIn for more insights, and check out her book for a deeper dive into unf*cking work for women.

Stay tuned for future episodes covering diverse aspects of corporate culture, employee engagement, and innovative HR strategies. Follow The Fearless PX on LinkedIn and visit our website for more content and updates. Reach out to the hosts at elephant@thefearlesspx.com with your feedback and suggestions for future episodes.

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Music Credits:
Opening and closing theme by The Toros.

Production Credits:
Produced by The Fearless PX, Edited by Marion Anderson.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect any a...

Transcript

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Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the elephant in the org, everyone. I'm Danny Glut. I'm joined by my Co. Host, Kashia, Dora, and Mary Anderson.

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Aye.

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Danny Gluch: we have our amazing guests today. Michelle Minnikin and

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Danny Gluch: our elephant in the org is about women in the workplace, the current challenges and envisioning a future where work is less shit for women.

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Danny Gluch: and it's the the best guest we could possibly have on. She just published a book.

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Danny Gluch: good girl d programming, which I just do I love that title. Michelle? If you could give us

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Danny Gluch: the dust jacket! Best version of of what this book is about, and and what motivated you to write it. Just let us and all the listeners know what they're in for, and why they need to buy it.

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Michelle Minnikin: Oh, I could probably talk about this for about 3 weeks. So first of all, thank you ever so much for having me on.

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Danny Gluch: and we do have a a about a 40, 45 min, not a 3 week, timeline just just dropping that one in there.

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So yes.

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Michelle Minnikin: the very, very short version. So the book is effectively how society keep women and girls behaving  and the

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Michelle Minnikin: through a series of unfortunate or fortunate events depending on what side of the table you're stood at, and I kind of figured out that

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Michelle Minnikin: coercive control was the tools. Were the tools used to keep women and girls behaving so.

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Michelle Minnikin: and after an Adhd diagnosis and a

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Michelle Minnikin: a a lot of anger about how useful this information would have been. You know, 2030 years ago, in terms of my life I had

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Michelle Minnikin: had lots of counselling and therapy. I was invited on A

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Michelle Minnikin: and a learning and development conference to co-create something that would be very empowering for women, and we were talking about this concept of this good girl conditioning. So how society

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Michelle Minnikin: trains women or girls from birth to be nice, to be kind, to share, to put people, everybody in the whole wide body world in front of themselves

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Michelle Minnikin: and

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Michelle Minnikin: and me. As a psychologist or professional Nosey Parker. I was wondering like, How does this happen? And interestingly, literally, on day one of university we found out about classical conditioning. So the whole kind of Pavlov's dogs thing, and

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Michelle Minnikin: and I, in my research, came across a a chap called Albert Biden, who is a well, was a Us. Social scientist who was asked by the military to figure out if the Chinese had a magical, brainwashing machine

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Michelle Minnikin: turns out they didn't

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Michelle Minnikin: sadly cause that would be fun to use, wouldn't it? I mean you. You have me at the word magic, you know. If they just were like, like, you know, magical brainwashing, it's not like it's gonna be a launderette? No

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Marion: today and look for one. So

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Michelle Minnikin: so yeah, so it's just all about how I kind of looked at all of the coercive control elements. And

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Michelle Minnikin: immediately. So this stuff is like use in torture, amnesty, international domestic violence, all use it as a background of sort of coercive control. And then I kind of took

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Michelle Minnikin: this chart printed off within 30 min. I was like.

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Michelle Minnikin: this is how women and girls are kept behaving. It's how we're trained

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Michelle Minnikin: various tools of coercion, and there are big consequences. If we don't follow these rules.

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Danny Gluch: Yeah, then I wrote a book because it just wouldn't go away.

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Danny Gluch:  so yeah. And then I'm here with you guys, yeah. And obviously, that translates into the workplace as well. And what's expected. And

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Danny Gluch: I,

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Danny Gluch: the idea that there is this like this sweet spot, this Goldilocks zone of you can't be too much this or too little that, and still be still like. Maintain your womanhood, but also maintain your like workplace standing, and that's

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Danny Gluch: I'm very grateful that I haven't had to encounter this, but it it just it makes sense, and I've seen it in in my experience, growing up and and from women that that I've I've talked to.

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Danny Gluch: and how just

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Danny Gluch: damaging it is, how, how challenging it is to navigate, because it's it's almost as if

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Danny Gluch: it doesn't matter who you are, how self-confident you are! You're almost gauging every meeting and every room you step into. how much do I get to be myself, or how much do I have to dial it in to find that sort of like, sweet spot? So

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Cacha Dora: yeah, it changes as well.

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Danny Gluch: It does right? As a yeah, it's it changes based on on on who's in there? Right?

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Cacha Dora: It does changes based on who's who's in the room, what your climate is like. I mean, I've worked places where everyone referred to management as the Boys club right like, and that was just the reference that people made without any kind of prompting. Right like this is very diverse group of people, and then you have the other end of things when it comes to that Goldilocks thing, I think, especially in the workplace, where

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Cacha Dora: sometimes it's also the dangling the carrot, right? The same standard that fits for for the the gentlemen that you work with might not be the same standard to get you a promotion and you gotta work double or triple is harder, and it's

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Cacha Dora:  you know. Well, II know Michelle talks about it beautifully, but you know it's systemic ultimately, in that and that end of things, how the Goldilocksing occurs.

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Marion: and I and I think a lot of the time.

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Marion:  we don't realize

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Marion: sometimes is is women. We don't realize, firstly, just how deep that runs. And I think men also don't realize that quite often, though, there'll be micro regulations coming out, and they don't. It's

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Marion: so deep in there that they don't even see. And these are not bad people. These are lovely co-workers and great people and people that we really enjoy. But it's it's so deep ingrained in our Psyche

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Marion: that we're not doing the best job of actually trying to. You know.

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Danny Gluch: Umhm, yeah, Michelle, what do you think some of those those microaggressions. And for for those who are

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Danny Gluch: uninitiated into the the voc languages of microaggressions. Now these these are not like overt people, being mean and and squashing down women and not allowing women to to be themselves. These are like again, it's it's those programmings. Men are programmed. Other women are programmed in the same expectations, and it comes off in very nuanced languages, or how things are positioned.

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Danny Gluch: One thing I used to like to do at least once a semester to when I was teaching courses at the university was

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Danny Gluch: to, instead of, you know, high students, or, you know, looking to the class Hi, girls.

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Danny Gluch: and and just see responses, because it's totally common for me to say, Oh, hey, guys, how are you doing in this group where I am the only guy. Little things like that are it? It sets a tone it creates sort of a hierarchy of of what

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Danny Gluch: what's expected. But what are some of these attributes. Traits that women are are either labeled as, or are

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Danny Gluch: very conscious about trying to avoid Michelle, that that you think are the microaggressions are really based around.

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Michelle Minnikin: Oh, there's there's just so much it's it could be as little as an eyebrow raised. You know that a woman dares to speak up about something, or, you know, blaming.

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Michelle Minnikin: blaming a woman. You know, this thing happened. That was bad. But obviously the the woman was asking for it. And that's like in every every sphere of life. And

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Michelle Minnikin: and I saw I got sent actually by one of my friends an interesting meme the other day, and I'm sure you've all seen it.

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It was a case of what's the difference between aggression

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Michelle Minnikin: and being assertive.

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Michelle Minnikin: been aggressive and being assertive, and the the sort of the punch line was your gender?

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Danny Gluch: Oh, that burns that burns. Oh, man!

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Michelle Minnikin: Yup.

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Danny Gluch: yeah, that's a true thing.

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Danny Gluch: And it's it's little things like that right? So it's the same actions, right? Right? The same actions that would be considered.

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Danny Gluch: you know, just being assertive, taking proactive all these like positive languages, you know, proactively doing something versus aggressively doing something. And it's the same actions. The difference is the gender of of the actor. Yeah, but it's the same as the same as like asking for things like, you know.

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Michelle Minnikin: A man wouldn't think anything of asking things but for something, and then a woman comes along, and she's either too needy. Or who does she think she is? The Queen of Sheba?

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Michelle Minnikin: The Queen of Sheba is actually awesome, by the way, you know and finding out what she did. Amazing, I'd love to be the Queen of Sheba. Turns out.

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Danny Gluch: I'm gonna have to Youtube, some videos on that one history, not my strength. So

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Danny Gluch: I think that begs the question. And it's one of your favorite questions. This is not like great podcast on my part, it's great planning on Marion's part is one of your favorite questions is.

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Danny Gluch: what would a mediocre man do? What would Danny do? Right? Is is

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Danny Gluch: woman allowed to get away with those comments, with that behavior. And and I think that's a really good framework for

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Danny Gluch: moving forward. Actually out of this is, you know, are we judging women? If you know with me? If just the regular man would do this, would we label them that way? No. And and II really think that's such a helpful question. But what what started you looking at?

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Danny Gluch: Work and actions and women and work

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Danny Gluch: through that framework?

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Michelle Minnikin: Well, I think it's it's mostly because I was a woman in work.

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Michelle Minnikin: and I saw what happened to

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Michelle Minnikin: the you know, the different, the different genders and

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Michelle Minnikin: and work was not built for women, you know, when work, you know, the modern day work was invented, you know. The man went out in a very heteronormative relationship. The man went out going, you know, make making bacon going out all day. Swanning off, focusing on his career, came back.

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Michelle Minnikin: and the woman had the house all lovely, thinner pipe slippers, you know all of that crap. And and then, when women had to go into the workplace, the workplace didn't change to accommodate us.

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Michelle Minnikin:  So we ended up with like 2 and a half jobs, you know. Even if you're not married with children, you'll have

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Michelle Minnikin: friends to take care of, or parents to take care of, or neighbours to take care of, because we're just assumed to be the caretakers, givers the caregivers

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Michelle Minnikin: because we're women, and we always end up doing 2 and a half jobs instead of a man. Bless him! Lucky, lucky! So that he is, he can just, you know, go into work, and just think about work and do his work, whereas

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Michelle Minnikin: our brains don't work that way.

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Cacha Dora: I think that's really interesting, Michelle, especially because there have been so many reports with the conversation of return to office, return to work remote hybrid, all of that, and a lot of the statistics that people are starting to measure and starting to release their reporting on it. I thought.

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Cacha Dora: wish I could remember what what they, what the numbers were.

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Cacha Dora: But it basically said that this whole mandate that's coming. The people who it's impacting the most is women mandate. You seen that?

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Cacha Dora: Oh, my God! Oh, I feel like my brains like vibrating. Not the coffee. It was that statement. But I mean, the the numbers are are. We're really heavily skewed towards the impact of women in the workplace, because

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Cacha Dora: all everything you just detailed doesn't stop because you have a career

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Cacha Dora: right? And and you have to adjust around it in order to maintain that 96, 8 to 5, whatever it is, and that remote and or hybrid work experience for women has made it infinitely

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Cacha Dora: impactful in a way that, like women want to fight for in a way that potentially their male counterparts don't.

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Marion: Yeah.

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Danny Gluch: I mean as a a male who's very involved in caretaking of children. I also want to say that remote work is great for us. For those who care. But again, it's more of that that. It's an option for me. Right? It's it's not the social expectations that I do. So. The thing that interests me. What Kasha just brought up brought up

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Danny Gluch: is the other population that has benefited so greatly for from work, work from home.

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Danny Gluch: which population I see. Kaja nodding. I think she knows

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Cacha Dora: it's exactly. Yeah. It's it's anyone anyone who needs support outside of

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Danny Gluch: your standard, your standard.

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Danny Gluch: it II think it says a lot that that being a woman and having those sorts of social expectations

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Danny Gluch: is akin to right, not like a disability, but just it's like an added, a built like an added burden that is needed, and that flexibility

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Danny Gluch: helped that.

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Danny Gluch: So of course, that that's a population that was really helped by it is because you needed the flexibility because there is an extra burden.

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Danny Gluch: and that's.

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Marion: I think, as well. There's that

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Marion: poisony, toxicy emotion of shame

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Marion: that comes along with all of this as well again, particularly if you're a woman. If you're a woman

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Marion: with a disability

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Marion: and you feel that you require that additional support

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Marion: to be able to be in the workplace. I'm really honest. I've talked about this before at Ptsd.

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Marion: and it's been something that's been quite new for me to understand. If it explains decades of old behaviors.

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Marion: and I work better at home because I'm more productive. If I'm stressed I can get down and play with the dogs, you know, reset myself.

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Marion: Energy people. Officer role is no picnic, right? It's a really emotional taxing role.

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Marion: But we feel a sense of shame quite often. And I think also, for more early than our careers. We haven't quite developed that that toughness yet to

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Marion: see what we need.

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Marion:  and

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Marion: III couldn't equate this, but I would wonder if you had a me and a male counterpart side by side, if the same level of shame would be fail by both part. We were in a similar shaking her head.

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Michelle Minnikin: Well, my, my one of my questions I'm really curious about is, why do we hear about girls in school and universities with imposter syndrome.

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Marion: Umhm.

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Marion: Why is it all of a sudden? You know we

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Michelle Minnikin: girls do better now. The studies show that girls do better at school and in in

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Michelle Minnikin: and

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Michelle Minnikin: literally the week between school and work. Something must happen to that woman, because clearly, you know, it's our fault. that then all of a sudden, we we lack confidence. We have, you know, self doubt, imposter, syndrome, and

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Michelle Minnikin: like what

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Danny Gluch: it's the, you know. Clearly, it's not the bloody women. It's the environment.

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Marion: Yeah, it's true, that's true. And

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Marion: you have such a slim margin where we feel that we can

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Marion: feel and make mistakes. And this that links really into the whole premise of the work that we do it feel safety and psychologically safe workspace as much as we want. But until we're able to really kind of understand and resolve the imbalance and dynamics between

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Marion: not even just genders, genders, capabilities. you know, culture, colour, all of that until we can actually find a way to really level that out.

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Marion: Technological safety is gonna be a whole deal. Because, you know, you can't do one without the other.

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Danny Gluch: Yeah, II wonder if one of those differences between school and and women, succeeding and and excelling and being, you know, generally ranked across all fields of studies, is like the top percentage

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Danny Gluch: in school versus like again, that next week, or sometimes even overlapping, feeling impostors, of being a top performer at at work. One of the the parts of school, especially in Americas. It's very, very individualistic.

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Danny Gluch: It's very like just on your merit. How good are you like? You're not really expected to to carry things. Or there. There aren't a lot of social expectations of care taking, because everyone's grade is just their grade. You pass, or who you fail based on you doing the test.

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Danny Gluch: So there's there's less of those social expectations of the women to to come in and support and caretak and make sure everyone comes along.

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Danny Gluch: And then all of a sudden, they step into the workplace, and it's like, Oh, wait! Why didn't we get this? You know person's birthday party are all organized. Who who dropped the ball on that one

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Danny Gluch: clearly know. The men dropped the ball.

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Danny Gluch: Extra caretaker and leader is not so much that

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Danny Gluch: it's imposter syndrome. It's it's they're they're like, I can't be 2 people at once. It's exhausting. Yeah. I don't get it. That sounds impossible.

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Marion: Yeah. And I've been in that position where I had

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Marion: a leadership role. And I was also caring for my dad, who had dementia. And he was at the later stages of his life.

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Marion: and I was crumbling.

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Marion: I was falling apart and I got that held against me and told me that my performance was a par.

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Marion: you know, and and it was

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Marion: such a shocking thing to me, because

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Marion: wait. I was was meant to be a place where we were respected, and you know our greatest resource, our soul, all this stuff right. But here was me in a moment of my life where I'm trying to be a professional, and I'm trying to be a carer and a daughter.

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Marion: and I'm dying on my feet. And we, you know, where was the support there. So you know, we we

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Marion: we talk a good game.

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Marion: but we don't really actually know how to do this and how to support people properly.

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Marion: in my opinion.

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Cacha Dora: Well, and I think what what you just highlighted, Marian, is the inconsistency in what happens when you experience human events

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Cacha Dora: in in your life. Professionally right. I've

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Cacha Dora: I've had experiences of coming back to work after a period of time for a medical leave, and I was expected to know things that

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Cacha Dora: if other people had been away for the like. A vacate long vacation, leave versus medical leave, the same expectation wasn't placed upon them right? So the the balance and scale moves depending on who's recip

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Cacha Dora: on the receiving end? Because I think there is a lot of that that social normativity. Whether we like it or not. Unfortunately, that's there. I mean, you even go back to the the tenants of what makes leaders.

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Cacha Dora: and it was masculine versus feminine at the very beginning, right where where people started formulating what this was. It truly came down to your leadership. Skill was masculine versus feminine

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Cacha Dora:  and

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Danny Gluch: I could go on a whole soap box and be like. But we started for patriarchal societies. But I'm not gonna go. The French philosopher Fou, has has the idea of the so back in England in the old days there was this idea of the perfect prison called the Panopticon. If anyone who's seen guardians of the galaxy like there's the big Central Guard station, and it they have a view into every room. There's no privacy. Everything is watched.

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Danny Gluch: Basically his ideas that we've internalized that for our social rules, right? We've we have all of these social rules, and it's not necessarily other people who are enforcing it.

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Danny Gluch: We start to enforce it in ourselves, and I think that's where Marion was bringing up that shame bit of. We have our own. We are our own guards, and it is a scary thing.

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Danny Gluch: and one of the things that I love about Michelle is you have this concept of being a work pirate, of breaking these outdated rules.

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Danny Gluch: causing some trouble, but for a good thing, right for a bad thing but and and being bold and brave, and and taking some risks, so that we have

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Danny Gluch: a direction away from that.

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Danny Gluch: How does that work at work?

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Danny Gluch: It's II would love to hear just some wins or some

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Danny Gluch: just some ideas of of being this work pirate that that breaks out of this panopticon

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Michelle Minnikin: so funnily enough, the I talk about the panopticon effect in the book.

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Michelle Minnikin: and how there's the ultimate. The ultimate and coercive control is that we co control ourselves based on all of these societal judgments. So we're expected to live up to. So in terms of the work piracy, I was doing it entirely in my career. So I grew up with undiagnosed Adhd, and very recently found out autism as well, which is, you know, an extra fun part of that puzzle. And I

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Michelle Minnikin: just I literally couldn't cope with all of the the processes and procedures in in organizations big, you know, behemoth organizations with stupid rules and stupid processes. I just didn't understand. I'm like, why would we do it this way when I could just phone this useful person

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Michelle Minnikin: and get it done. You know what I mean. It's like it doesn't make any sense. So I kinda did it, because

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Michelle Minnikin: I think you know, I had to.

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Michelle Minnikin: in order in order to get some stuff done. But my my boss would ring me and say, we've got this, you know. We've got this engineer that needs to be on site on Monday. There's no way of going through the proper processes to get him a car to be delivered at his house, you know, Friday afternoon. So I just ring. I just ring up the guy in Fleet. I knew that was pretty helpful, and said, Could you just sort this guy out with a hire car? And then we'll we'll sort him out with a sort him out with a car to be delivered to his house.

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Michelle Minnikin:  on Tuesday, you know. And

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Michelle Minnikin: I yeah. So it's it's all about.

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Michelle Minnikin: And I keep saying kept saying to him, my ways like it's quicker, it's cheaper. It involves less paperwork, less people, less process. But apparently organizations don't love that, but it's all about

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Michelle Minnikin: doing things and asking

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Michelle Minnikin: or forgiveness, rather than seeking permission

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Michelle Minnikin: and finding your helpful people.

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Michelle Minnikin: So you know, in all of these studies on culture there was loads of like weird anomalies, and they found out it was the, you know, in the olden days, when smoking was bit more like socially acceptable. The smokers have this like bush telegram thing, and they'd all find out, and they'd all like know how to collaborate and who the usual people were. So I didn't smoke, but I didn't. I almost did that. And when I left

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Michelle Minnikin: the biggest company I worked for, I left my my person who was

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Michelle Minnikin: he was taking my role a list of a hundred helpful people. If you need this, call this person, if you need that, call up person. Sure I was a nightmare to manage. And I I'm 100% unemployable now. But

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Michelle Minnikin: it's all yeah. It's all about dancing around at the edges, and what you can get away with without getting sacked. which is only once for me. So yeah.

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Marion: bravo! That's that's good achievement.

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Marion: you know. All I hear is just one of we have this. This thing that we really believe is

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Marion: the core solution to any problem in an organization and in life. And it's foresees common sense being the first one, which is exactly what you just talked about. You know compassion, courage, and communication again, all of those things that you just highlighted in there, and we don't have enough of that. We don't have enough common sense.

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Marion: and that's because we don't give people enough autonomy to use their content.

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Marion: And so you know it. It. It can be a a thing that. Yeah, it's like any muscle. If you're not using it. It just starts to weather me and die, you know.

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Cacha Dora: and

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Marion: we have this constant battle of controlling organization. You know just exactly what you highlighted. Well, we've always done it that way. So that's how we do it.

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Marion: And someone comes along with.

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Marion: yeah, but that makes absolutely no sense like, why would you do that when you could do this?

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Marion: What do you mean right? And I mean, that's certainly not a gender

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Marion: specific thing.

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Marion: But I can think of plenty examples of my career when I've been the one that's come along and well, I wouldn't do that would do this.

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Marion: and it's been a new counterpart, and it's been like we'll push back, push back. So and I probably more just in my experience, more situations like that with men and with them. And unfortunately, so

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Marion: it's very interesting that these are things that

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Marion: we're starting my career 25 years ago, and guess what still happened.

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Danny Gluch: Well, they're not gonna fix themselves, Marian.

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Marion: No, we need pirates to fix them.

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Michelle Minnikin: We just need a little. A few acts of piracy never hurt anybody.

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Marion: And let me throw this out there, based on that based on that whole thing we just talked about. What do we think? How do we think that's gonna shift with the the shift in the the change of balance of our generational workforce.

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Marion: because I

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Marion: done a lot of work, and what study and to generations, and might research, but not in this particular India. So I would be curious. I don't know if any any of you guys, Michelle, any of you guys have looked at that and thought about how well that

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Marion: autonomy that need for autonomy, that ability to use common sense, will that shift? And if so, how will it shift as we become more millennial led? And then Gen. Z.

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Marion: And Nope Michelle. Thoughts

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Michelle Minnikin: II don't. I haven't done the research, but I would imagine

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Michelle Minnikin: you know we had to. We had to sort of go to a bookstore when we were

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Marion: when we were little, and you think about it, these processes were put in place by ye boomers.

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Michelle Minnikin: So.

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Michelle Minnikin: and we, you know, we had to learn patience, which was something that my my 14 year old child has in 0 of, because everything is immediate. So

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Michelle Minnikin: I can only imagine that processes will have to

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Michelle Minnikin: be flexible for this generation of people, because, you know, they're not going to want to, you know. Send an email to to Tracy, and then wait for.

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Danny Gluch: never eat, to do something, and then, you know, wait for Trevor to do his bit before they get something take it upon themselves, right like. And II think that, Marian, I think your question of the difference in the generations that we see in the workplace workplace. I think it comes down to the word we were just all talking about, which is autonomy.

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Cacha Dora: I think that there is a a resourcefulness that people naturally bring to the workplace, and a sense of you know, Michelle, you were talking about the work piracy and the W. The word that kept coming to my mind is, I hate company bureaucratic bullshit, and that

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Cacha Dora: that's really what that is right. That's saying. Like, I see your levels and all of your red tape, and I can just walk through the tape like, you know, like, but I think that's what it is right. It's seeing like, I just gotta walk through. Why do I gotta wait? And I think that's exactly it. Right? Like the answer to that question is kind of like touching on all of those things and combining it because

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Cacha Dora: we we see these trends that we're starting to see whether you're looking at

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Cacha Dora: generational voting trends and people vote with their employment, right like, and where they choose to work and how they choose to work. It's not just necessarily someone in participating in a democratic election or any kind of election. It's like people vote with their decisions. And those decisions that we see

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Cacha Dora: we're we're seeing. With all of this return to work conversation. I know II brought it back a couple of times, but there's such a huge impact for women specifically and and being vocal right now, which you know. Luckily, thank God for things like Linkedin. You're starting to see a lot of people who are just being vocal. And the community that's building around that vocality is.

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Cacha Dora: It reminds you you're not the only one who's experienced this.

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Danny Gluch: Yeah. And kasha that just brings up the the personal is political

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Danny Gluch: like that was like the big rallying cry of second wave feminism. And when you are making the decisions or acting in this way, or or sharing your experience on Linkedin. Those are political things of like this is allowable. This is what I approve of. This is what I don't approve of. And oh, boy, one of those things. The autonomy

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Danny Gluch: business is not great at giving autonomy or trust right? And and it's who is allowed like, what? What is the sort of like? Is it politically allowed, who is politically allowed to be bold and push that and still maintain their social standing?

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Danny Gluch: And, boy, I'm going to tell you that I would

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Danny Gluch: have an easier chance of maintaining my social standard back to that mediocre white male thing. And it's and it's hard, right, like I don't

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Danny Gluch: appreciate that. I think everyone ought to be able to be bold and just call Jimmy because Jimmy knows how to do this. I don't care about your red tape.

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Danny Gluch: And there's gonna be a large group of the younger generation

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Danny Gluch: who.

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Danny Gluch: especially Americans, kids, don't get a lot of autonomy and trust. It's one of the reasons why we have such a hard time transitioning to adulthood with things like alcohol, because we've never been trusted with handling it properly. It's always been a like a a cops and robbers. Things of like all the adults are the cops, and we're just trying to get away with as much as we can. And like, that's that's that's a horrible thing. But it's very much a part of American culture.

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Danny Gluch: And to then step in and like, How do you push rules and fight, for, you know, efficiencies and autonomy

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Danny Gluch: when that's what you've been raised with. And it's you're you're trying to break them in an appropriate way and holy smokes like it's there's gonna be a lot of people who lag, and it's it sucks that we're asking them to break rules instead of just like looking at the processes and rules and saying, Hey, maybe

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Danny Gluch: maybe we can adjust these for the younger generation like Marion was suggesting.

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Danny Gluch: They're not going to, though they love some red tape.

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Michelle Minnikin: It's interesting, though, isn't it. that it? And it's all about finding your

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Michelle Minnikin: finding your little gang of rebels, your gang of pirates.

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Michelle Minnikin: And

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Michelle Minnikin: you know, with

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Michelle Minnikin: what? With with more people talking and doing. you know, that's how you change things. It's not just somebody with a loud voice. You can do it quietly. You can do it mischievously around the edges.

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Danny Gluch: And

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Michelle Minnikin: yeah, you don't have to. It doesn't have to be big and bold. And, Danny, stop saying that you're mediocre.

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Michelle Minnikin: I'm sure you're awesome. III have fairly average

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Michelle Minnikin: background. I mean, yeah, it's

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Danny Gluch: well, I think one of the the awesome things about this next generation, and and the sort of like doing it quietly, and not having to. Whatever is the access to information

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Danny Gluch: right. Just like the linkedin exists. Youtube exists podcasts like this one. And and you have a podcast tell, tell us a little bit about your podcast and and I know that a big part of what you're doing on your part podcast is creating a community trying to get people to come together,

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Danny Gluch: to live differently, to act differently, to just, I mean, even be a support in trying to handle the hardships that specifically, women have in the workplace. Tell us a little bit about that work, and how

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Danny Gluch: how you see that as a function of this change, or you could do. I want to hear Danny tell us the name of the podcast.

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Danny Gluch: Oh, I. How do you read an asterisk?

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Danny Gluch: Okay? So it's it's unfocking work. But there is no. You.

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Danny Gluch: The U is silent. It is replaced with an asterisk.

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Michelle Minnikin: Yeah, that's to get round apples get success. Oh, that's II was wondering what it was. Oh, yeah, quite happy. Just a bit of a punk, that's all. Just using asterisk and the move name and the name of the punk movement.

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Michelle Minnikin: So yes, we when

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Michelle Minnikin: it's quite funny. So I have been doing.

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Michelle Minnikin: I've been working for myself since 2016 and my parents. So I always had a typical typical sort of psychologist, you know, I always knew what it wanted to do.

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Michelle Minnikin: Cause I'm a nosy Parker, and and my kind of question as a 5 year old was why I grew up in Northern Ireland during the troubles. So you know. Not surprised, you know the Ps. Ptsd stuff.

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Michelle Minnikin: And

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Michelle Minnikin: and so my so psychology, masses and occupational psychology went into proper jobs and then completely burnt out and just couldn't

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Michelle Minnikin: could not anymore. In 2016 I got sacked okay. And and then I was like, Nope, not doing this anymore. Set my own business. And I set up a very boring professional psychology practice, you know, like everybody else does, and I just couldn't for the life of me

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Michelle Minnikin: write anything I was just like, I'm so bored of this, you know. What's what's you know. What do I do for marketing? Because it just bores a shit out of me, and

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Michelle Minnikin: read a book called Be More Pirate, which was a massive turning point in in 2,018, because it made me realize there's loads of people like me out there. And let's just

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Michelle Minnikin: let's just do it. Let's go mental. So during the during the pandemic, you know, like you do.

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Michelle Minnikin: I was sitting here like just going. This is boring. I can't even write anything. Spoken to my my partner.

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Michelle Minnikin: and who's my partner and my partner

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Michelle Minnikin: so working with your partner's fun, isn't it? And so I was just like we need to. We need. We need to rebrand. And then within half an hour we come up with a name work pirates, and we try, you know, when you try to think of what this strap line is, and it's explain what your business is.

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Michelle Minnikin: And I was like. It's just like unfocking work. But is there a professional way of doing that? And we I had a community of people on at the time, and I said to them, Is there a better way of saying unfucking work. And they were like.

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Michelle Minnikin: No, I think that works. I'm like, okay. Then I said to my parents, cause you know they're not normal as well, and in the in the nicest possible way.

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Michelle Minnikin: They know this is what we're work pirates, and we've unfugug work.

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Michelle Minnikin: and they're like, Oh.

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Michelle Minnikin: it's like the first time in like 20 odd years. We know what you do. It's like great that works.

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Danny Gluch: I love a good, concise descriptor, that is, it's beautiful beauty of language.

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Danny Gluch: And and you have lots of guests on your podcast and you explore a lot of things. Is there any one that was really just like.

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Danny Gluch: you know. Maybe if some of our listeners wanted to listen to yours, was there a specific guest or a couple of guests that they should look for that would really help dive even deeper if they want to go down this rabbit hole on on unfucking works specifically around

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Danny Gluch: women in the workplace.

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Michelle Minnikin: So we haven't actually talked about women's workplace, which is really weird. We haven't specifically talked about that on the podcast I've been talking about other people on this, on other people's podcasts, but not on mine. So that's a really good reminder, Danny, thank you for James should interview me on one

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Michelle Minnikin: but my favorite podcast and apologies to all the other podcasts, guests, but sorry was the sort of the January one, where we had the author of being more Pirate Samconf, and another author that I absolutely adore, and John Alexander, he wrote, but called Citizens.

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Michelle Minnikin: and have them both on as a just before Christmas, when we know just the wind down towards Christmas, when you're absolutely knackered, get 2 amazing thinkers and talkers on podcast and me and James that's lie down for a week afterwards, cause it was just like mind blowing. But yes, that was must be my favorite one.

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Michelle Minnikin: But we've got some really interesting ones coming up actually. But no, why wouldn't I? Why would I talk to?

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Michelle Minnikin: I'm creating a offshoot? I'm creating the good guilty programming podcast and I have got some interesting women and men.

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Michelle Minnikin: on. And I booked in to talk about that.

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Danny Gluch: So that'll be, I keep saying in the spring like within the spring. Now I'm like in the spring, like later on in the spring.

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Marion: maybe side of spreads to them.

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Danny Gluch: I don't remember what the groundhog said about spring, but it's rainy here in California. So it is. It is deep winter.

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Michelle Minnikin: Thank you

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Danny Gluch: so. And and I think this transition is, you know I wanted to ask you about what you envision for, like the future of work that is less hostile to women in the workplace. That is more of a a place where there's less imposter syndrome, and they can be more authentic and not be labeled as certain things. And it really seems to be around that the programming. And it's not just women that need to be deprogrammed. Right? It's it's

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Danny Gluch: the whole of society. What? What does that look like? What are steps in that, or discussions or groups that need to be formed

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Danny Gluch: solve the problem, solve the problem. So it's it's threefold. So one is we have to as women realize that this is a thing.

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Michelle Minnikin: you know that that sort of awareness which can be quite

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Michelle Minnikin: traumatic actually, that this is the thing is like, do I need this or society telling me that I need it? It's that kind of level of who are my existential crisis. So there's the supporting women through that

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Michelle Minnikin: awareness. Secondly. men need to understand.

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Michelle Minnikin: And I'm being very binary here. But men need to understand what it's actually like to be a woman.

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Michelle Minnikin: Because I don't think I think they think they know, but they don't.

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Danny Gluch: And so

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Michelle Minnikin: we need to. We need to have more conversations, and we need to be listened to, and we ha need to have men supporting that and making other men listen. And then the most important thing for for us men to

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Danny Gluch: to be good listeners and understanders. Of what? What, what are some of those key lessons? Is it? Is it just that this exists, or is it like any specific things?

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Michelle Minnikin: It impacts different people differently. So it's almost a case of

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Michelle Minnikin: you know.

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Michelle Minnikin: I think what I'd love, you know, is to have a magical, brainwashing machine to enable

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Michelle Minnikin: men to be able to read our minds because we. I think we don't help ourselves. Sometimes as women, we just like kind of be resentful and grudging rather than actually feel comfortable and confident, saying, That's not okay. You know that Brene brown, clear, is kind. Unclear is unkind.

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Michelle Minnikin: So creating an environment, a climate that it's that we feel safe saying that

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Michelle Minnikin: because we don't feel safe

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Michelle Minnikin: in most relationships, most environments.

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Danny Gluch: II oh, man, II know, Marian, you probably want to talk about psychological safety right now.

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Marion: It actually is more of a personal anecdote. But I just had

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Marion: last night an experience where not a work related thing.

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Marion: but where I called out the behaviors of a gentleman.

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Marion: Let's call him a gentleman. Because basically, he was.

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Marion: I was. He was giving me unsolicited.

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Marion: flirtatious attention, shall we say? And I said. Do all

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Marion: this? II didn't ask for this, you know, I just

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Marion: I'm not. Let's not do this

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Marion: and

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Marion: in a very polite way, in a very nice way. And I got well, Paul, I was only talking. It was just a joke, and I'm like.

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Marion: so

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Marion: there's a discomfort there when we do call, even when we do feel brave

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Marion: and we do feel courageous. We do feel that we want to stand up for ourselves. There's an instant discomfort. not unexpectedly.

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Marion: but it has to. You have to be cause, then that makes me more less likely to want to do that again. Right? How do we break that cycle?

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Danny Gluch: that's that's the thing. We can be brave all day long. But yeah, you can. You can be clear, knowing that it's kind as much as you like. That doesn't mean the next time the next time is going to be very easy.

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Danny Gluch: because oftentimes there's that push back. It's hard, or you even get labeled as certain things by doing it

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Marion: exactly. It's definitely not moving, Danny.

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Michelle Minnikin: Yeah, no.

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Michelle Minnikin: Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, had his campaign that came out, and it was like, you know, ridiculed all over the Internet. But you know, I think he had the right idea that if you see as a man, if you see toxic behaviour happen, you just say, mate.

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Danny Gluch: you know, made I mean that actually right. And

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Danny Gluch: II like to say that what culture really is is what happens in the meetings, what's allowed and what's not allowed.

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Danny Gluch: and that's exactly what it is is when someone says something off color or or does something that isn't allowing a woman to, you know, be authentic, or is is labeling a woman some way and or another

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Danny Gluch: mate? What what are we doing? Well, no, we don't do that

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Danny Gluch: right like I, it actually really is. And and I thank you for calling that out because II do imagine that that is something that could get rid of fueled on the Internet.

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Danny Gluch: But like.

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Danny Gluch: no, that's that's what we need to do like. If if society were to adopt that like, that's a deep cultural change that is kind of what's needed. Just say, mate.

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Michelle Minnikin: yeah, if you just look at this, all the violence against women and girls thing, it's almost, you know we're the ones that get all of the advice, you know, to hold our keys in our hands. Don't walk alone. Don't wear ponytails all of this stuff. It's not us. This is not the problem.

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Cacha Dora: I that was like my whole college career, you know.

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Cacha Dora: going to school in downtown. I definitely did that you know the case in the hand the whole 9 yards like. I also would like to pause it. Maybe, instead of like Dude or me just going. You just just give him the Danny Squint, you know. I mean, II think that I think you're all very right. I think all of those things, you know. Maybe you with the Danny squid cause, then it's like, No, I think you is one of my favorite bits of feedback.

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Danny Gluch: It really is. It communicates so much right like psychologically even II know you know this, Michelle, that the EU, the grossness of oh, this is unhealthy. This is not allowed near us, because it's not healthy you like. Get it pushed out away. We don't want that near us like

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Danny Gluch: that is, that is some magical cultural stuff, and it can really really impact change.

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Danny Gluch: But if you're safe enough to do it, yeah, I mean, but use one of those things that I

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Danny Gluch: you know you don't have to be.

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Danny Gluch: you know, super eloquent, or or even well read, and oftentimes, when you are well read and you're like, Excuse me, we shouldn't do this behavior because of XY, and Z. It gets a lot more pushback and isn't as allowable as like ill. Come on, no.

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Danny Gluch: Why do you. Why do you think that's appropriate? Yeah, right?

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Danny Gluch: That's much better than trying to lecture. What do you mean by that? As well as a good 10, yeah, trying to get someone to explain their an off color comment will typically turn into what Marian just mentioned. Right? It was just a joke. But they know right? That's that's them trying to to save face. And but they they know what they did. They know.

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Michelle Minnikin: The third thing I forgot to say is is we need to understand how it impacts us. We need to get the mail allies in to help. And you know, you guys need to drive this. And then the third thing is organizations. We just need to have a look at it. We almost need to throw it out and see what what would work for everybody. So

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Michelle Minnikin: I've done a lot of work with the neurodivergent folk. And it's really interesting to see that what works for autistic and Adhd is. It's.

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Michelle Minnikin: you know, clear language, you know, some that task autonomy. And you know, person personalization, some job crafting

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Danny Gluch: love, some job crafting. Yeah, it works. It works for everyone. Yeah.

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Michelle Minnikin: And it's clear, clear expectations rule setting, you know, clear.

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Michelle Minnikin: actionable feedback. All of that stuff, you know it's not. It's like, it's not rocket science. We know what we need to do. It's just not being done.

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Marion: It really is. It is oh, man!

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Danny Gluch: Well, that being said, everyone should read the book. I'm going to wait. You promised to do it. An audio book narration, and I'm waiting for that because it's good pressure cause I need. I need people to pressure me into doing it.

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Danny Gluch: I want to hear your voice read it, cause love the accent, and II think everyone should should either read it or or listen to it. Because it's it's amazing. Also check out the the podcast at okay. So what do people put into the search bar to find your podcast

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Michelle Minnikin: Dave just right? Unfucky work. It works actually, hilariously. So I think Google goes, I know what you're trying to do there.

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Danny Gluch: So they should put in the asterisk instead of the you put in the you. Okay? So just Google unplucing work. And you'll you'll find Michelle.

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Marion: Yeah, we'll put the link in our show notes along with Michelle's Linkedin and Link to the book

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Michelle Minnikin: when something exciting's happened as well. Since I last spoke to you. It was only a couple of weeks ago, so I created a quiz.

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Michelle Minnikin: and to to figure out what part of the

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Michelle Minnikin: the books you should read, because we're very busy. We haven't got time to do a whole bloody book. So there's a quiz. But after having I'm doing some workshops and organizations and realizing that some of the language in the quiz is is quite like life and relationships in life. So I'm literally about an hour off finishing a good girl at work. Quiz

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Nope.

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Marion: Dad, I did the course. It's there just now, which was really cool.

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Marion: And I love the report that came back from Akasha. You got to do it, Carl. It's like super insightful. So is this definitely.

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Marion: is this a deterrent. I think?

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Michelle Minnikin: Yeah. Curious to see what the difference is between the 2 of them, because I can be a good girl at work and not a good girl outside of work

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Michelle Minnikin: can we get links to both. I will send you them as soon as it's soon as it's done. I need to test. Those will be in the show notes cause. We are a legit, official, podcast.

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Danny Gluch: is that it any, any last thoughts?

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Danny Gluch: Because we're so legit. I feel like we, I mean, she, she did like a 1, 2, 3 step takeaway, and I was like, Wait, I can't top that.

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Cacha Dora: I appreciate you really suggesting this, the standard white mail moment here. So, good job, David.

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Danny Gluch: sometimes you just have to realize you can't top what Michelle just did.

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Danny Gluch: Absolutely no, just wrap the show.

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Michelle Minnikin: Well, thank you ever so much for listening to everybody today

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Danny Gluch: have a lovely week. Wait! You didn't say that. Be sure to like and subscribe. Leave 5 Star Review you can contact us at elephant@thefearlesspx.com.

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Danny Gluch: and thank you everyone. We'll see you next Wednesday.