The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
The Invisible Wounds: Leadership, Shame, and Psychological Safety in Workplace Trauma with Jessica Donahue
Welcome to a thought-provoking episode of "The Elephant in the Org," where we tackle the complex and often overlooked issue of trauma in the workplace. In episode 17, titled "The Invisible Wounds: Leadership, Shame, and Psychological Safety in Workplace Trauma," we delve deep into the nuances of creating a supportive and understanding work environment that recognizes and addresses the impacts of trauma. Joined by the insightful Jessica Donahue, a seasoned HR leader and consultant with a rich background in corporate HR and a personal journey through complex trauma, we explore the critical need for trauma-informed practices in leadership and human resources.
Our hosts, Danny Gluch, Cacha Dora, and Marion Anderson, guide us through a compelling conversation that sheds light on the definition of trauma, its profound effects on individuals' professional and personal lives, and the pivotal role HR and leadership play in fostering an environment of psychological safety and well-being. Jessica shares her invaluable experiences and strategies for integrating trauma awareness into the fabric of organizational culture, offering practical tips for employers on supporting trauma-affected employees and creating a more inclusive workplace.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to understand the importance of empathy, sensitivity, and support in leadership and HR practices. Whether you're a manager, HR professional, or team member, you'll find insights and strategies to help navigate the challenges of addressing trauma within professional settings, ensuring a healthier, more supportive work environment for everyone. Join us as we navigate the delicate balance of professional and personal well-being in "Trauma-Informed Leadership and HR Practices" and take a step toward a more empathetic and understanding workplace culture.
You can learn more about Jessica at adjunctleadership.com or connect with her on Linkedin.
Connect with Us:
- Follow The Fearless PX on Linkedin at The Fearless PX
- Visit our website for more content and updates: https://www.thefearlesspx.com/
- Reach out to Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlessp.com
- You can find all episodes of The Elephant in the Org here.
We encourage you to subscribe and leave a review if you found this episode enlightening!
From April 2024, all new episodes of The Elephant In the Org will be posted bi-weekly.
Music Credits:
Opening and closing theme by The Toros.
Production Credits:
Produced by The Fearless PX, Edited by Marion Anderson.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are exclusively those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations’ official policy or position.
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Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the elephant in the org, everyone. I am Danny Gluch, and I am joined with by my co-hosts Cacha Dora and Marion Anderson. Hi.
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Danny Gluch: And today we have a wonderful guest. Jessica Donahue Jessica is a fractional HR. Leader and consultant. She spent 10 years in Corporate HR. Before pivoting into consulting where she's worked with a lot of series a through C start ups and growth.
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Danny Gluch: Stage companies to scale their Hr functions part time in an interim capacity as someone with complex trauma herself. She's really passionate about raising awareness for individual teens and employees with Hr. Backgrounds and histories and employing trauma-informed practices into the workplace.
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Danny Gluch: Welcome, Jessica.
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Jessica Donahue: Yes, thank you so much. I'm happy to be here with you all today.
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Danny Gluch: So today's elephant in the org.
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Marion Anderson: the trauma.
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Marion Anderson: it is something that is.
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Danny Gluch: I don't know. I feel like of all the things like that. We'll have a willingness to talk about this. One might be like
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Danny Gluch: the biggest, or or at least the hardest, to to verbalize, and when someone starts talking about it, of of like, am I able to engage in this or not? So I think a lot of people just don't.
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Danny Gluch: So I wanted to start, and I think we all agreed that we should start with what is trauma?
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Hmm.
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Marion Anderson: yeah, I think a lot of people have. You know, it's one of those words that we use a lot. Oh, my God, that was such a traumatic! I was so talk like, you know, we we can abandon about right? But you know, on a clinical sense, and I think physiological psychological sense, it's kind of important to get it right? And the real sort of clinical definition is where someone is experiencing neurological, physiological, emotional
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Marion Anderson: memories, flashbacks, sensations overwhelm related to a traumatic experience that they've they've they've gone through at some stage, and it doesn't. Ha! You know, we, I think we think trauma and Ptsd and things like that. We think you know our veterans and people that have been through terror attacks, and that's absolutely correct.
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Marion Anderson: But also we experience trauma and our own lives, and we don't necessarily appreciate quite how long lasting. That is, II you know I'm quite open that I was diagnosed recently with complex Ptsd, which was a shock to me because I was like, but
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I wasn't in a war, I wasn't, you know. But
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Marion Anderson: yeah, it's it's astonishing where it comes from. So I think that should hopefully give us a good base of what it is. And
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Danny Gluch: we have to start from. Yeah, well, it is complex. Right. There's there's the the an event that happens. And it triggers something that really it like transports you back to those old feelings feels almost identical, both both mentally, psychologically, and physically right. I think that's one of the requirements is there should be one of those like fight flight responses.
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Danny Gluch: as if you were in the traumatic moment. So
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Jessica Donahue: yeah, because the the ramifications of trauma, so much so much of it. It lives in the body. And our our bodies remember much longer, and maybe much more accurately, even than our minds do sometimes. And Danny, like you, shared in my intro. I have a a history of complex trauma myself. And have been kind of on a
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Jessica Donahue: 2 plus year healing journey that I'm very much in the midst of right now, and there is a another podcast in the trauma space. It's called beyond trauma
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Jessica Donahue: and the definition they use to describe what trauma is that, I think, is, you know, less clinical, but a little bit easier to relate to or understand is really anything that overwhelms our systems. Ability to to cope. So anything that that's too much too soon.
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Jessica Donahue: too much for too long or too little for too long. And that's that's very personal to each of us, and it looks different for each of us. And so going back to your point, Danny, and why? It's, you know, sometimes not talked about or difficult to talk about, particularly in the workplace, I think, is is because it is so personal. And those those parts of us that that have been through those experiences so many times, are so tender.
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Jessica Donahue: That it's it's hard for us to reconcile them in and of ourselves, let alone with other people. Sometimes, even though connection and community in so many ways, is like the anecdote to the the isolation that trauma can bring. Yeah, it really is the medicine right, and the the talking with friends and family and therapists can even be hard to share your trauma with.
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Jessica Donahue: Talk about that with workplace people, or even like that. II think you know
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Cacha Dora: we live in a society that very much wants to emphasize the individualistic end of things, and sometimes having to acknowledge that you're not okay, right? Cause trauma clearly indicates that bad things happened, or you were placed in bad situations or anything that like like you kind of helped to define Jessica right, that you couldn't process like. For whatever reason there there was, there was a a little bit of a barrier there.
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Cacha Dora: and and that acknowledgement
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Cacha Dora: in the self, even like outside of the workplace, right like, wherever that acknowledgement happens, like you could realize that something that you're either experiencing trauma, or that you're reliving trauma like in the middle of a grocery store, picking up so a bottle of water. You know what I mean like it happens anywhere. And I think that that individualistic break
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Cacha Dora: from the fact that we don't really work typically alone, we're normally in a group dynamic in the workplace is is kind of an interesting differentiator. For how people realize their trauma versus process, their trauma.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I think that's a great transition into our our first real area that we wanna to dive into, which is
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Danny Gluch: external traumas like childhood or or adult traumas that happened outside the workplace, that people then bring into the workplace right? And and Marion mentioned before, like our veterans, right here in America, we're very much support. Our troops take care of the veterans.
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Danny Gluch: but are we?
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Danny Gluch: Are we actually open to the veteran experience of Ptsd and trauma in the workplace? II don't think so. And and that's a reality that they're they're just not welcome there. Then
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Danny Gluch: and your bio says you, you help people install trauma informed practices. What does trauma inform practices mean? And and maybe let's talk about how we can incorporate those. And
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Jessica Donahue: yeah, I mean the way as we've kind of talked about, everyone's individual experience is going to be so different. Their histories are different, what they've been through, and so what? They're the baggage. I suppose we could say that they're bringing into the workplace is going to look different for everyone, and not everyone wants to talk about their trauma or their history at work, and they shouldn't have to
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Jessica Donahue: but at the same time, I think there are some things that are common about that experience, and one that just stands out to me, something that I heard someone else speak about recently is kind of the role that that toxic shame
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Jessica Donahue: plays and kind of the the aftermath of trauma and kind of the way I've heard it described as you're thinking about. How can you make a workplace more? Trauma informed, is to think about how can I create a workplace that doesn't allow that shame to thrive?
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Jessica Donahue: Because by doing that you're what you're doing is you're increasing kind of that likelihood that
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Jessica Donahue: you know your workforce, your employee. Population will feel some semblance of safety, and when we feel safety we're able to connect with other people. Again, that community is what helps us bring our full selves to work, I think. And so what that might look like at any given workplace and those specific dynamics, I think, will be very, very different. But I think, leading with this idea of how can we minimize the ability of shames?
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Jessica Donahue: The shame force at work. And how can we incorporate elements of safety into everyone's experience at work? And that'll look different for everyone. Yeah, Mary and you. I've heard you champion, the the toxicity of shame. What? What's your experience with dealing with that
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Marion Anderson: systematically, procedurally, whatever in the workplace? I mean, it's so personal. And it's so varied to individuals, and you can't
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Marion Anderson: peek inside someone's head and see what's going on and understand and I can only from that sense I can only really talk from my own perspective. And.
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Marion Anderson: you know, thinking back to before any of this was diagnosed, a lot of my trauma came from the fact that I was a parentify child. My dad was very ill pretty much my whole life. He had dementia. I was his guardian, so a lot of it came from that and
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Marion Anderson: you know it.
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Marion Anderson: At the time when I was in it
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Marion Anderson: I didn't know I was on it. I mean, I knew things were tough, and I knew things were really difficult. But it wasn't really until much further on in life where, when he's past and actually sort of recalibrate. And it's it's all came to the surface. And I realized.
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Marion Anderson: bloody hell like that was a lot. And
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Marion Anderson: Those feelings of shame are very unexpected. They're very unanticipated. They just spring out and hit you, and you don't always see them coming. And you don't actually know that they're there until your therapist maybe helps you realize it and call it out. And I think, even just realizing that you feel shame makes you feel shame.
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Marion Anderson: If that makes sense, it's that guilt, right? Shame and guilt, and completely all of that together. Yeah, completely. And so.
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Marion Anderson: you know.
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Marion Anderson: I think there's a couple of things in here, firstly,
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Marion Anderson: work. But even progressive work places are just really starting to get their head around psychological safety
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Marion Anderson: as a cornerstone by itself. Right? Yeah. And that's just for your regular Joe at work. You know your every employee. You want to create that as a baseline, but
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Marion Anderson: you know we're absolutely not equipped in any way, and
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Marion Anderson: you know it's debatable whether we should be. We're not therapists right? To be able to to sort of go beyond that. But what we do have a responsibility for is to help provide
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Marion Anderson: necessary avenues for support, whether that be through excellent healthcare opportunities, you know. Good additional support services like a comprehensive eap or other types of therapeutic add-ons.
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Marion Anderson: Just even having awareness and education around. It is essential. You know, we were talking about vets.
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Marion Anderson: I think. You know, I think that
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Marion Anderson: morally, a lot of companies would want to and love to, but like anything else, are a little bit scared of what it means and and how to deal with it. And so let's just
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Marion Anderson: leave that over there because we we we can't deal with that and we just need to grow up here and dig in and get on with it, because
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Marion Anderson: people are people right. And we've all got crap going on whether we've been through a traumatic war experience, a terrorist attack, or, you know, a difficult childhood. So
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Marion Anderson: let's just get a bit more compassion on the Gov.
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Jessica Donahue: and I think the reality, too, is like, let's just look back over the last. What? 3, 4 years
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Jessica Donahue: in our collective history we've all been through some trauma with the pandemic, whether we realize it yet or not. You know. I thought I thought it was really interesting. I was talking with my therapist last week, and she said, You know
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Jessica Donahue: she's a trauma therapist she specializes in trauma, and she said, I'm a full case lobe, and I don't have a single client who is, you know, a war veteran? Right?
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Jessica Donahue: And so I think we do ourselves and everyone around us kind of a disservice. When we think of trauma only being this one thing, and we don't realize that in all likelihood we've all been impacted by it right? There. Certainly, spectrum. There's certainly some things that that maybe have hit us harder than other things because of our unique histories. But this is something that isn't
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Jessica Donahue: everyone problem.
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Jessica Donahue: but we can only how do I wanna say this? We can only meet people as much as we've met ourselves? As much as we've reflected on our experience and understand how it's impacted us and and understand how it has impacted, how we show up at work. I think only then can we kind of create space for other people to show up that way. And in Hr particularly.
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Jessica Donahue: we're the only ones that are going to be doing that in so many cases. We're not psychologists.
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Marion Anderson: but we kind of create space in a way that maybe a therapist might when people are having a really hard time and have no one else to talk to. And so it's. I think it's more of a a thing than we all. We not not this group, maybe. But the the working world kind of understands or appreciates. Yet, even yeah, I think you just you just really pulled on a very important day there, you know, and it's something that I've been talking about for
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Marion Anderson: months that My awareness, my observation, is that
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Marion Anderson: people who I see is incatable. Cpos are leaving the role. Tell me about it right? And I've been quite candid and said, You know, I've probably only got another one of 2 or 2 of them and me before I need to pivot something else, because
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Marion Anderson: not only are you holding space for everyone.
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Marion Anderson: but you, you know a a a real CPU, as we know as a business person who looks at things through a people in. So not only are you doing the Hr. Job and the Od job and the talent job, and all of that.
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Marion Anderson: But you're also sitting as part of a C suite and your str. You know, business strategy numbers, you know all of that stuff, and you are the full package, and
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Marion Anderson: we're not super human. We think we are. I think we we can do it all. But we're not, and I think that the proof is in the Putin now, because we are losing incredible talent at CPU level and droves every day, and you know, even just in the last week I think I shared a couple of articles. I know that you should. One is exactly pointing that out. And that's not just in us that's happening in the Uk. As well. Cipd, just, you know, did an article on that this week. So
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Cacha Dora: this is a big problem. This is a huge problem. Nobody's people are talking about it in articles, but nobody's doing anything about it. There's no one to save us. We can only save ourselves. And this that's part of that, knowing yourself that Jessica is talking about right like, and that happens in the workforce because a lot of times these realizations happen. In the first place, people are gonna go when they kind of are forced, and I don't wanna say forced. But like
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Cacha Dora: th. There's really no choice for them to look in the mirror. And where are they? Gonna go? They're gonna go to their people team cause they don't know what else to do. Right? We're not equipped as a society to be like. You're ha! You're you're about to enter, struggle you, you have now, like, you know, recognize struggle is occurring, whether that's in your life or in the workplace, and your knee jerk reactions to go to the only resource you have in your head. Right? You know what I mean, cause not. Everyone is raised
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Cacha Dora: from childhood adolescence, adulthood to acknowledge or understand
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Cacha Dora: your mental state right? Because we just go from all these milestone life stages, and it just keeps going. There's not always this time to process and learn how to process and how that affects you. So our our people teams definitely carry and are given a lot more than they're equipped to handle. Well. And I think I think that's the
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Danny Gluch: thing we need to recognize is is that gonna be a traumatic experience that's created by work in work. And I know I know this is something that that therapists are trained on and and sort of systematically, there are boundaries that help protect the what's called counter transference of trauma between patient and and therapists.
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Danny Gluch: Those sort of protections and boundaries aren't
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Danny Gluch: in place, that that relationship isn't as well defined for the Hr. Practitioner, and it can lead to these, these, you know, and and it, you know.
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Danny Gluch: Hr. Is not the only individuals who are experiencing traumatic work experiences right? It it happens all the time whether it's from bad managers or anger, or you know, maybe there's physical trauma like there's there's lots of things that can be traumatic at work.
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Danny Gluch: But I just wanted to bring up that. I think what Marion is is highlighting when we've seen so many articles about this, like, I can just no longer work in the people's space anymore.
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Danny Gluch: I think some of that has to do with they. They're experiencing trauma. And they just they need to flee right. They've got that flight.
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Jessica Donahue: and at some point it just becomes, I think, overwhelming, because you know, it's kind of coming at you from all angles. Right? Me myself, you know I bring. I bring my own, my own history, into whatever workplace I'm a part of you know. Then I'm kind of impacted by whatever the you know, leadership of the organization might be doing, which I may or may not
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Jessica Donahue: agree with, and I may or may not think is serving its people, which is supposed to be my number one concern in the right way, and I think you know capitalism rubs right up against that and causes some friction there, and then, and then, you know, there's whatever the rest of the employees might be dealing with, that that they're coming to us with as well. And and when you think of
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Jessica Donahue: like. okay, that definition of trauma going back to that a little bit, you know some anything that kind of overwhelms our system's ability to cope the end of the day. Like we
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Jessica Donahue: we have this rational prefrontal cortex that helps us make all of these decisions and think critically, and and to some extent, maybe, like override that like survival or emotional brain that is being lit up as a result of trauma
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Jessica Donahue: but we can only do that for so long before it's like
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Jessica Donahue: well, no more I can't. I can't take it anymore, and that might be burnout, or, you know, choosing a different path entirely, whatever that is. But but yeah, it it feels almost some days relentless, like it is kind of coming from every direction. Yeah. And one thing that just occurred to me when you were talking was.
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Marion Anderson: you know, we talk a lot about this being the most generationally diverse working population that we've ever had. Right?
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Marion Anderson: You know, we've got our boomers who are exiting a massive rate like 10,000 today, or something crazy like that. But they're still there. You've got your older. Gen. X. Is your ex annual da da da.
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Marion Anderson: and everyone has a very different
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Marion Anderson: growing up or work life experience of emotions, you know, or or boomers. And our older Gen. X. He's already. You don't talk about these things at work, you know it stays at home. Stuff, upper upper lip, all that crap quite frankly. Right? And then you start to go down that spectrum of you know your younger Gen. X's. We're a bit more comfortable and with a therapy generation. But again, we still don't really bring it that much to work.
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Marion Anderson: But you know, as we get further down, you know, our our younger colleagues are more in touch with their feelings, able to articulate their feelings better. It's very much normal and fact, something that I saw yesterday. It was like a commercial break during a news program, and it was an ad there, I guess, like for Sesame Street.
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Marion Anderson: and it was like a little like just a little segment where they were, you know. Like. I can't remember the characters, Big bird and like their kids, I guess. And they're talking about how it's good to talk about your feelings.
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Marion Anderson: that didn't exist when we were growing up. We didn't talk about your feelings. So that's all starting to really come through. And I think that you know future generations at work. Hopefully, God willing, are gonna have a much more psychologically trauma, friendly environment and than we have. But we have to do the work now to make sure that happens. Yeah. Instead the stage for that. Because what does that mean then? Right? What does that?
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Jessica Donahue: What does that mean in terms of their expectations of their employers and their managers and their leaders.
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Danny Gluch: right? It's like at at some point. It's it's different. When
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Jessica Donahue: someone in in kind of like knowledge work realizes like, oh, oh, my God! Like I I'm seeing that one of my direct reports, someone I'm I'm responsible for or partly responsible for.
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Danny Gluch: is is having a trauma response. I can see it. We've we've talked about this. I know how to recognize it. Maybe I caused it, cause I sent the hey? Do you have a minute to talk slack and hit enter, and they got triggered, and when we're talking I'm like, Oh, my goodness, wait! What's happening! Oh, I'm sorry I didn't mean that.
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Danny Gluch: You need to take the rest of the day off. Go, Yada Yada, we can cover
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Danny Gluch: some industries can't cover like that right like II remember when I was driving buses and
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Danny Gluch: It was early on, and one of the bus drivers, without not their fault at all, killed a pedestrian, and I remember when that person tried to come back to work, they didn't even get the bus out of the yard, and there was a scramble like, oh, my goodness! Who's gonna do this? They tried to force him to get in the bus and drive.
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Danny Gluch: and he was like frozen physically frozen. They were like you need to do this, you signed up for the work. You have to do this
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Danny Gluch: and it, yeah, right? The industries, like depending on what you do. Maybe you're a grocery store clerk, and and one of your baggers freezes up and is having that trauma response. And you're like, Oh, you need to leave. But now you're a person short, and there's this like you said the friction of capitalism that is just like productivity. But what about the productivity?
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Marion Anderson: And II think we need to have those conversations of it's a lot easier in knowledge work to say, hey, you know what you take the rest of the day we'll cover for you than it is for some of these, like staffing hourly roles where someone just has to be there. I can't even imagine what that must have been like at the peak of Covid. Yeah, I mean, you know, none of us.
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Marion Anderson: Certainly the 3 of us haven't worked in healthcare. I don't know if that's something you think to be jess but
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Marion Anderson: You know, I think we all witness that during the pandemic, where are incredible medical professionals. Doctors, nurses a days, Emmys. Everyone who really like
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Marion Anderson: stepped up, and really, you know, followed that off that they swore right. I cannot imagine
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Marion Anderson: seeing body after body after body, not knowing, you know, especially very early in the pandemic, where we didn't really know what the pill was going on. And people are just dying all around them. Their colleagues are dying, you know. II read the other day about doctors that are now experiencing long covid that they can no longer work in the profession. So we're now losing
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Jessica Donahue: a lot of our qualified professions as well like the tru. Not. I can't even begin to wrap my head around that II can't talk about coming from all angles, really coming from all angles for them. Right? And I think you know a lot of times when we think about trauma marine. Such a really good point we tend to think about trauma times, about what's happened outside of work
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Cacha Dora: as opposed to the circumstances and the situations that were placed inside of work, and whether that, you know, is a very, very tragic situation, driving a bus and having something like that happen just the being in the medical industry and its affiliates the last
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Cacha Dora: 2, 3, 4 years. However, you know, whoever's late labeling that marker who's counting. We're just gonna like recon it a little bit right? But like that workforce trauma versus like your individual trauma, right? And like, I know this phrase gets thrown around a lot. You are here. You always hear about people like, Oh, well, it's a trauma bond, and and it's the same phrase with like triggering. Sometimes people use those phrases without really understanding what they are and what they mean, but it it definitely sounds informed.
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Jessica Donahue: sure
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Cacha Dora: and and like how.
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Cacha Dora: Jessica, I'm I'm curious from your perspective on. Just
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Cacha Dora: when those workplace traumas act occur.
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Jessica Donahue: How does that affect people as opposed to what they bringing into work.
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Jessica Donahue: Absolutely. Well, I think you know it. It goes. So much of this is gonna is gonna go back to kind of my comment before on capitalism and the role that capitalism plays. And all of this, you know. And I I've only lived in the United States, so I can only speak from that perspective of kind of our Westernized culture. But you know, you think about a layoff something that I've experienced. You know. Many of you probably have experienced as well. And in a lot of ways.
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Jessica Donahue: being blindsided by a layoff, I would say could be pretty traumatic, particularly if you already kind of have a feeling of
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Jessica Donahue: toxic shame that you're bringing from your past, or what have you? When you think about safety, you know. Not only are you losing your job and your form of income that used to support your family might be losing your health insurance, too. And and then how are you supposed to take care of of yourself? Right? So yeah, I think a lot of things, whether it be layoffs, whether it be
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Jessica Donahue: the way we manage performance management conversations. I mean putting someone on a performance improvement plan that can be really activating to people as well. And
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Jessica Donahue: despite intentions, even when they are the best. You know we can't. We don't. We can't know. We can't predict. We can't control how someone might react to those things.
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Jessica Donahue: But I think that in the Us. Particularly, all of our identities, are so wrapped up in our professions and our work, and what we do and anytime that's taken away from us or threatened, that can feel really, I think, psychologically unsafe in that. And I think it. It is specifically because our identities are tied to
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Danny Gluch: that. When you're told you're not doing a good job.
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Danny Gluch: What you hear is, I'm not very good. I did wrong. It's I am not enough. Right? That's that shame part that that's really
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Jessica Donahue: yeah. And I'll be out transparently, you know, like I share before complex trauma history from childhood. Most of my my trauma from childhood, and and I very much struggled with that toxic shame, and for you know, 30 years of my life probably carried this subconscious belief that I am bad, who I am as a person is bad, is not good enough.
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Jessica Donahue: It took me probably a year of therapy to even understand that I held that belief because it was so core to my identity. Right?
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Jessica Donahue: So it's just a very, I think, insidious thing that many of us might be carrying without even knowing it. And I think that sometimes explains some of those you know, big reactions that we have to things that we experience in the workplace such a such a big point, like one of the things that I learned in therapy
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Marion Anderson: was actually with your therapist holding up a mirror you start to see.
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Marion Anderson: Oh, my God! The way I cope with these things a as an adult is how I cope with it as a kid, which is, you know. God bless God bless my 5 year old self! We're trying her best to get through some really awful situations.
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Marion Anderson: And and you know, 45 year old. Marion is now like. okay, that that
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Marion Anderson: that happened. But now we're gonna make good on that. And you're okay, right? And and you're okay, and you're safe. And nothing bad's gonna happen. And so doing. That work is is so important. But you're right like in in, unless you have that awareness, epiphany, or support, or help to really get into that.
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Danny Gluch: You're carrying this around did not even wing that there's a bomb in your suitcase. Right. It's it's the it's the P. Right like that, like the the was it the Princess in the P. Right. You're sleeping it, but it's buried. It's there. So I
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Danny Gluch: one of the things that I've heard a lot from Hr. Practitioners, Lnd practitioners,
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Danny Gluch: and and just just workers, is right. We we all have this little bit of getting negative feedback goes immediately to
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Danny Gluch: shame. And I am bad right in in this. Let's just stare the elephant in the face as talent development. Hr. Professionals.
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Danny Gluch: How do we handle
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Danny Gluch: these performance? Improvement plans of we need you to be better, not because capitalism demands it, but like
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Danny Gluch: to be a successful team, that is, that is reaching some of the things that we are intending to accomplish.
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Danny Gluch: We we need you to blank.
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Danny Gluch: How do? How do we approach that in a way that's going to? More likely than not.
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Danny Gluch: Avoid triggering that shame cycle it.
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Marion Anderson: We have to blow up most of the things that we currently do. We need to put them on an island. We need to throw stick a dynamite at it. We need to let it blow up and never talk about it again. Right? Like, I think you guys have heard me see as well like when I'm delivering training on feedback. One of the things I always tell the people is never use the word feedback
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Marion Anderson: ever because the second someone hears that word they're like, and they're not even right into yourself, and you're not even listening. And and I think I mean I've been seeing that for
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Marion Anderson: more than a decade, right when I deliver training. But now you know II and II know my colleagues here are the same.
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Marion Anderson: It's not just a rebrand, it's a complete rebuild. It's a complete reimagining. The word pip needs to bug it off. Feedback can do one like all of that language with the negative connotations and the the real
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Marion Anderson: traumatic responses that people experience as to go. And we have to th. And there's better ways to do it. And we're much more knowledgeable now. And we have organizational psychologists, and we have great resources to help us do this.
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Jessica Donahue: We have to blow up and start again. I totally agree that I think the systems and and processes that are built around performance management and need a complete rebuild. And and I don't have the answer what that looks like yet maybe someday I will, but I will say there's, I think, one other lever that we can pull as particularly as Hr leaders. And that is the
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Jessica Donahue: the employee manager relationship. I feel strongly that if we can impact managers, we can impact the culture of an entire organization. Because if I can teach you to build a relationship with each of your each of the people on your team that is rooted in
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Jessica Donahue: trust and safety from day one that when the time comes. Or maybe something isn't quite going the way we needed to, or the way they're showing up at work
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Jessica Donahue: isn't serving them, and we we do need to help them see that they can achieve a better result by operating differently. How does a far easier conversation to have? And it's far less likely to be activating to someone like me with my history. If I know that that leader.
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Jessica Donahue: trust me and I trust them, and there is safety between us, and they are not giving me that feedback for lack of a better term right now. In order to hurt me or shame me or put me down. But to actually do the opposite, to help build me up and help me see how I can become even more successful.
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Jessica Donahue: And so the systems yes, they need to go but I also think we desperately need to find ways to teach individual people leaders how to lead, not just
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Cacha Dora: manage. Well, I think that's such a huge call out, because I think what that really also says like that undertone is, treat your people like people not like a resource, right like. And it's that exactly. It's it's all about being able to not just have your site safety, not just have this trust, but like
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Cacha Dora: those are all just hot words until you change how you also
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Cacha Dora: not only create the space for people, but treat them right like we. We always say people or humans or people, not resources. Right? And there's such a key undertone to like performance improvement like like, there's nothing about your skill as a human being in in that phrase alone. Right? And, Jessica, I think I think what you said is so spot on, because
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Cacha Dora: it's really about treating people and helping people as people not like. Oh, well, you have a deadline, so just get better and and do your work
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Danny Gluch: something that when Jessica was talking it really made me think of this, this hierarchy
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Jessica Donahue: of
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Danny Gluch: that's supposed to be a trusted hierarchy, oftentimes, like our trust with parents as kids. There's this violation of you're supposed to be caring for and supporting me. But instead, I'm getting
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Danny Gluch: abusive. Shame, based sort of language from you. That that, I think, is is kind of at the core of both of these. And it's one of the reasons why I really love Peer to peer feedback peer to peer. Input why I love being able to, Danny Squint, or say eel peers as a way of like. Hmm!
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Danny Gluch: What you did is that that that's not sitting well with me, and and it's it's a lot less of the the parents saying.
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Danny Gluch: you're doing bad. I need you to do better. Otherwise I'm not gonna be happy with you. And and it's it's almost
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Danny Gluch: coming from the top down right. And different managers can can lessen the feeling of like I'm above you and be their manager. But that's part of the skill, too, is not. Have it. Be this like top down feeling of authority that needs to be broken down for it to be safe.
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Jessica Donahue: You were saying something. Oh, when, Jessica, you go ahead. No, just quickly. I was gonna say it is. It's so reminiscent of that for some of us in our background. It's so that boss employee relationship is so reminiscent of the parent child relationship. And it is. It is rooted in that just imbalance of power and control. One party has more power and control than the other.
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Jessica Donahue: and that in and of itself feels really threatening sometimes. But, Mary, go ahead.
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Marion Anderson: No, II that actually said me beautifully into where I was going. Cause actually, I just had this
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Marion Anderson: thought when you were speaking before. You know.
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Marion Anderson: we're. We're actively trying to bring in this notion of psychological safety where, you know, we are certainly all advocates for that. We, we, we work to educate people. We work to raise that profile. We stand on the shoulders of amazing people like Amy Edmondson. Right?
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Marion Anderson: but a lot of this stuff. I think. And again anecdotally is
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Marion Anderson: not all, unless the company is very progressive, is not always really understood or seen by the C-suite.
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Marion Anderson: and at the end of the day they cared about
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Marion Anderson: bums on seats. Shareholder return profitability. Blah, blah blah! Wh, which is not wrong, right? I mean, what's point? Having a business if you're not producing right whatever you know. Again.
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Marion Anderson: the core component of that productivity.
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Marion Anderson: or the people that are pulling the levers, or digging, or nursing or teaching, or whatever it is that they are doing.
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Marion Anderson: How do you think? And again, this is a very open, handy question.
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Marion Anderson: Who do you think that is? You know, practitioners.
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Marion Anderson: How do we continue to really amplify the need for this?
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Marion Anderson: Because
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Marion Anderson: I think we've clearly outlined today why, it's important. And the direct impact that it has on the productivity of an organization. A few people feel safe, and they're happy in their love. They'll work harder to just for you. You'll make money right.
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Marion Anderson: How do you think, as practitioners, we really try to get that message into our C suites and get them to really, not just buy into it, but understand it and make it part of the DNA,
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Jessica Donahue: the 1 million.
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Jessica Donahue: It's talking about my experience. It's sharing that. Yes, I have this history of complex trauma, and it has impacted me deeply. It is impacted me deeply, not only in my personal life, but it's impacted me deeply in my professional life and in a lot of ways, it's made, you know, going out on my own and working for myself that much
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Jessica Donahue: scarier in so many ways. But I also think it can be really healing for other people to see. That that there is beauty on the other side. There is life on the other side, and
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Jessica Donahue: I can still be a member of a great team doing great work and have this history behind me. It doesn't have to to define me or stop me from continuing to do great things. And I would guess that if most people that I've worked with over my career, you know, listen to this podcast. They're probably gonna be surprised to hear that I have some of this
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Jessica Donahue: in my history. And so I think, the more we see it normalized. I think that's a big part of it, I think at least, that's the start.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I think that there's there's really something to that normalization.
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Danny Gluch: And when we talk about psychological safety, right? A lot of the the core of that
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Danny Gluch: is about vulnerability and trust. And I think, and and this isn't just.
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Danny Gluch: This is not just up to the the people. Vertical leaders, right? This is not just for the Cpo. Who's in the C-suite to do this, and anyone in there can do it.
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Danny Gluch: but I think it requires talks in the c suite of the vulnerability of sharing their traumas, because I guarantee you that CEO
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Danny Gluch: has a trauma of. I really thought we had it. It all fell apart. I am ashamed of the decision I made that is leading to this. I am traumatized by that. I never wanna have that happen again. And
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Danny Gluch: talking about
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Danny Gluch: those traumas being that vulnerable and tre trusting, and be like, you know what, and we still believe you should be here in this room, I think, is a part of it, and letting that right there's a trickle down economics for you or or I've never been a CEO before half the time. I don't know what I'm doing right, you know II am human, like everyone else here. And I'm trying to educate myself. And I really wanna learn and grow just like everyone else here and show that.
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Marion Anderson: You know, it's okay to make mistakes. Yes, obviously the impacts a bit more, but more significant to further up the pull you go. But
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Marion Anderson: you know that's why you're hiring an incredible array of very talented people around you. So you're doing this together? And again, I think a lot of that comes back to Ego. Right? It does. But that vulnerability strips down that ego building that trust in the C suite. Again, if anyone hasn't read 5 dysfunctions of a team like that is the absolute base of oh, you want to function.
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Danny Gluch: get vulnerable. Talk about your fears, your failures, you know. Don't just say, Oh, you know
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Danny Gluch: I played soccer growing up like that's not getting to know people that's not actually the bond and the trust that you need you. You need to get deeper. You need to have those honest moments that Jessica was was sharing. And and you know, sharing on a podcast for, a lot of people and like, you said, some people might be surprised, and that's
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Danny Gluch: that means you are being vulnerable to a lot of people.
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Jessica Donahue: Totally. It's and it's and it's it's hard. It's not easy, you know. So II you know, I wanna kind of put that out there, too. It's not something that that happens overnight, you know. If I'm a highly successful, based on the definition of what success looks like. Maybe in America, which is climbing the corporate ladder and making lots of money. If I'm a CEO has gotten to that place.
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Jessica Donahue: I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that part of what's helped them get to that place is over functioning in whatever it is that they do, and many times that is a promo response. And so what's helped them be successful in some ways is that history, and so to share that with other people, be vulnerable about about it. That's not an easy thing to do. And so I think, step one is just
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Jessica Donahue: being vulnerable with yourself, vulnerable yourself. Maybe if you can find a trusted colleague after that, maybe if you can be vulnerable with your team sometimes, you know, modeling, I think vulnerability for your team as a leader is a huge has a huge impact where, if you can get in front of your team and say.
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Jessica Donahue: I messed up, or I really stepped in it with that one. You know. I this is what I would do differently next time. Suddenly. It's okay for the rest of the team to show up in perfectly 2. But we have to be willing to put ourselves out there like that first in order for that to happen.
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Danny Gluch: Wow! That's
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Danny Gluch: that's a great place to stop. So it's also round and share our deepest trauma. No, and II think right, that authentic vulnerability. I think one of the. It's one of the reasons why I love a process focus right process oriented as a results oriented because you can say holy smokes. We did well, but like I oh, I made a mistake. I would not make that decision again like that we got lucky that that worked out right, being able to to have those
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Danny Gluch: conversations that are just frank about where where there was a suboptimal choice or strategy is really helpful.
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Danny Gluch: I was going somewhere with this.
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Danny Gluch: I swear I was oh, in in. It needs to be authentic, right? The the performative isn't gonna be helpful because people that out, it needs to be authentic vulnerability. And I think what you said is, that's it's like a gift
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Danny Gluch: to the the team that you manage, whether it's you manage 2 people or you. You're responsible for 2,000. It's a gift to them.
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Danny Gluch: and that's going to do a lot.
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Jessica Donahue: I agree.
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Danny Gluch: Any final thoughts, ladies?
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Danny Gluch: No, I think I'm good to leave it right there. Yeah, it's a beautiful spot to be in. Well, thank you, Jessica, for bringing this elephant to the room so that we can talk about it. I hope people found this as a
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Danny Gluch: A helpful, useful eye opening experience. I hope you're all willing to go out and be vulnerable, and share and give space for people who have trauma or experiencing trauma. If you all want to learn more about Jessica and her work, please go to adjunct leadership.com, or follow her on Linkedin.
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Danny Gluch: Please give us a listen. We have new episodes. Every Wednesday you can contact us at elephant, at the fearless px.com. Thank you, everyone.
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Jessica Donahue: Thank you.
