The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
Thrive Together: Designing for Wellness in the Workplace with Adam Weber
"Thrive Together: Designing for Wellness in the Workplace with Adam Weber" features an in-depth conversation with Adam Weber, a distinguished figure in the HR and leadership landscape. Adam hosts the popular HR Superstars Podcast and is the Chief Evangelist of 15Five, a leading continuous performance management software company. Adam's expertise is also captured in his Amazon bestseller, "Lead Like A Human," which explores the intricate balance between authentic leadership and business growth.
Hosted by the Fearless PX crew Marion, Cacha, and Danny, this thought-provoking episode features Adam, who explores the vital components of creating a workplace that champions productivity and growth and prioritizes employees’ well-being.
In our modern work culture, the emphasis often lies on being busy rather than being effective. This episode challenges that notion, diving into the evolution of HR practices, the importance of strategic leadership, and the transformative power of psychological safety in the workplace. Adam shares his journey and insights into building high-performance teams that are rooted in trust, clarity, and authentic connection.
Join us as we discuss practical strategies for overcoming the pitfalls of a "busy" work culture, improving meeting efficiency, and fostering an environment where employees can thrive. Whether you're an HR professional, a team leader, or someone passionate about creating a supportive work environment, this episode offers valuable perspectives on enhancing employee well-being and organizational success.
Tune in to "The Elephant in the Org" for this enlightening conversation, and don't forget to subscribe for more episodes on corporate culture, employee engagement, and innovative HR strategies. Share your thoughts and join the discussion on creating workplaces where everyone can thrive together.
Follow Adam Weber on LinkedIn for more insights on leadership and HR strategies.
You can find Adam’s book - Lead Like A Human here.
Connect with Us:
- Follow The Fearless PX on Linkedin at The Fearless PX
- Visit our website for more content and updates: https://www.thefearlesspx.com/
- Reach out to Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlessp.com
- You can find all episodes of The Elephant in the Org here.
We encourage you to subscribe and leave a review if you found this episode enlightening!
From April 2024, all new episodes of The Elephant In the Org will be posted bi-weekly.
Music Credits:
Opening and closing theme by The Toros.
Production Credits:
Produced by The Fearless PX, Edited by Marion Anderson.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are exclusively those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations’ official policy or position.
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Danny Gluch: Welcome to the podcast. Adam Weber. Adam, tell us a little bit about yourself.
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Adam Weber (he/him): Well, thank you, Danny, I'm so excited to be here, it's always fun, like. Hi, just Danny, you're just. I love your energy. It is like we actually gotta meet, live this year and just felt like, immediately had a just clicked, and so excited to be with you all. Yeah, a little bit about me. I
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Adam Weber (he/him): I don't spare you my whole life story. But I was a Co. Founder and chief people, officer of a company called Amplify. We did engagement measurement where we gotta measure cultures, and we demystified this concept of engagement. And then we coached executives on how to build high-performance teams. What was interesting is while that was happening, the Hr industry was kind of fundamentally expanding, and so I never actually viewed myself as a Hr. But then Hr. Started to move.
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Adam Weber (he/him): and it really and and so now my company got acquired by 15 5, and I'm the chief evangelist to 15 5. And really, what I do is talk about that new side of Hr strategic, Hr, kind of all those things, those aspects I just talked about. How do you build high performance teams, leadership, development, manager effectiveness, performance management that doesn't suck like all those things, basically.
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Adam Weber (he/him): And I'm kind of just on this like, how can I just fix Hr and be a voice for others to kind of give them the courage to go. Have the conversations to fix the Hr. Industry, or even the the Hr. Department inside of their organization.
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Adam Weber (he/him): That's me. And then I also wrote a book called Lead, like a human, which is all about, how do you lead? Is your true authentic self, but also do it in a way that like grows businesses quickly. I think that's the detail. There's always finding that balance.
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Adam Weber (he/him): I'm a dad. I got 2 teenage boys
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Marion: been married for 17 years play guitar. I told you that, and I'm absolutely obsessed on a competitive pickleball player, too. So that's pretty much my life story. In 2 min, poppy this morning.
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Danny Gluch: Can you see, she's actually right there.
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Danny Gluch: little intro you gave to yourself, welcome again, to the podcast you're gonna be a great fit here user, you, you used a lot of the words that we love to use.
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Danny Gluch: But today's elephant in the or really leans into that that building successful teams, and it's not just a natural thing. You can't just do what was done before you and expect great results.
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Danny Gluch: the especially when we think about the well-being of our people, the employees. We need to think about consciously designing what the organization, what the workplace, is like to really support their wellbeing. And there's a lot of decisions that happen just because this is the way things have been done. Or oh, this seems like a good idea that don't really support the individual. And one of the first things, and this was, inspired by a a
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Danny Gluch: post you made on Linkedin, where you said that the the idea of these cascading goals when you get down to the individual contributor and the mid-level managers.
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Danny Gluch: and they don't have a strong sense of the organizational and the department goals.
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Danny Gluch: It can really feel like a waste of time. And in your post you talked about the psychological effects of working for 40 h in a week
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Adam Weber (he/him): when you don't know if the work you're doing is really aligned with organizational goals. And I was like, holy crap.
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Adam Weber (he/him): Yeah, I mean, I think that's the
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Adam Weber (he/him): there. There's something fundamentally broken about most organizations. And I think it's really rooted in some old beliefs. That I, in my book talked about this character. I call him, frustrated Frank. He's the guy who, like walks around the office, kind of a little angry all the time at work.
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Adam Weber (he/him): and he judges. The success of like are things going well based on how stressed people look and how busy they look. And that concept, though what it misses is not many organizations take the time to look at each role and define. Wha what do we actually want from this role.
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Adam Weber (he/him): and not enough managers do the work to go. This is what success looks like for you. And so instead, we have these cultures where everybody's stressed out of their minds, and nobody's actually moving in alignment with the company goals. And so everybody feels like they're failing. The business isn't thriving, and nobody can go to the dentist like, because they're afraid that they're gonna look like they're not a hard worker, even though. Yeah, so that that's the that was the spirit of what what that was about.
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Marion: You know. I it's funny something that I clicked onto there. There's this massive disconnection, I think, between
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Marion: goals, organizational goals, and job descriptions right? And I think the thing that a lot of people don't understand is that
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Marion: job descriptions
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Marion: are are are transient, they're fluid, they change.
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Marion: We get stuck in this thing that you are a sales manager. Therefore your job description is this, and it's been this since 1945, right? And in fact, the job has evolved whether it be in the last year, the last month or the last 5 min, it's constantly changing. And so when we use these job descriptions as a a yardstick is a benchmark really to determine. Okay, is this person performing? Are they meeting the the basic requirements of the job? Description is actually a completely false measurement, because
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Marion: it's probably not what they're doing. Maybe they're doing better, but it's completely changed. And the same with the organizational goals. You know, we we've not really caught on to the fact that organizational goals are also fluid and also change by the minute more or less right. Obviously, you have big goals that are fairly static.
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Marion: But the how we get there has to shift to be nimble in accordance with what's happening in the external and internal environment.
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Marion: So the whole thing
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Danny Gluch: pretty broken, actually, and but that seems that seems extra hard to communicate those nimble goals. So those like, Hey, you know, the the the President or the you know, the Vp of this and 2 high-level managers made this decision on Monday.
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Danny Gluch: like, how long does that take like structurally to get communicated out to the individual contributors who are affected by that conversation like that I I've never seen, and it it seems like the bigger the company, the the slower. This is right, like they're they're just. They're not as agile. They're not as nimble.
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Danny Gluch: I it, and everybody ends up just being like they can't see past their nose right. And and I, when I was hearing Adam talk about how busy people are, and they can't even go to the dentist. I've had that feeling, and it's
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Cacha Dora: well. And that feeling right is.
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Cacha Dora: there's so much to it. So it's not just that like I feel like I can't go to the dentist. Well, what else is going on in the organization to make you feel that way? Right like those Franks that that think that stress is a good indicator of productivity. But really, if you don't feel safe
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Cacha Dora: key emphasis on that word
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Cacha Dora: to be able to take the time that's in your comp package party, your benefits, the things that you're signing up for, that you're you're working to use.
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Cacha Dora: Then you, it's telling you right that environment has that lack of psychological safety that lack of
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Cacha Dora: humanity built in that like we look at like I,
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Cacha Dora: we talked about in a previous episode like the how
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Cacha Dora: a loaded calendar is not an indication of how productive, busy, effective you are. I write a lot on Linkedin and one of the the post I'm working on right now, and I take way too long writing these things. I know some people just like right, and I like really try to craft and take. I do a month at a time of these posts, and there, there's one I'm working on real time. So I'm just gonna say it out loud to you all.
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Adam Weber (he/him): There's the. And I think this is actually the worst in Hr, but it happens everywhere. The addiction to being busy and makes you feel important, but it throttles your growth inside of an organization. And so you get so used to feeling needed and valued. But what you're not learning are the skills of prioritization outcomes, which is what this topic's all about. Like, what am I actually supposed to be accomplishing
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Adam Weber (he/him): delegation like when the and then those things are often. What happens then is you've build resentment because you feel like you're working so hard. And yet you're not being recognized. You're not getting promoted. And really what what you're actually doing is doing. You're perpetuating the cycle of administrative. Hr, like you're. And and that's the Hr version of it happens all across the organization.
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Adam Weber (he/him): yeah, no, it's just it's like so many things and vertical that
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Marion: it's so. I don't keep saying it's broken, because that just seems so unhealthy. But we've just got ourselves in such a mess with all of these things. It's so messy, it's so convoluted. And in fact.
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Marion: it really shouldn't be that complicated. It should be relatively simple. Right?
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Marion: Look after your people, give them trust, give them autonomy, help them, feel that they can, you know.
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Marion: produce what you need to produce, and it doesn't matter whether they're doing that at 100'clock at night, for an hour, or whether they're doing it at 100'clock in the morning for 2 h like trust them, and then the rest of it will start to take care of itself. But we're still, and I think we're
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Marion: as a non American looking in even more.
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Marion: it's even more intense here because of the cultural layers. You know, the the cultural thing around. We American. We work until we drop dead, you know, and you don't take vacations. And and us Europeans are like, what the hell! You're all crazy. So it is such a. There's just such a so many like dynamics opposite forces that are like pulling.
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Marion: How we gonna break through all that cause. It's it almost has to be completely blown up and started again. But that's not realistic. So
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Marion: what's what's the solution? Adam? Tell us. Well, I think you're, I think between the the last cup that you and caution just said, like, you're really onto 2 of the big 4 things that have. How you fix this
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Adam Weber (he/him): psychological safety is one like the Oh, I have this. II always forget. I have that zoom. I don't know how to turn it off. No one asked for zoom was like, yes, you're right. Psychological safety, my friend, like, is this, is this just an audio podcast and no one has any idea? What? No, no, this is gonna go on Youtube.
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Adam Weber (he/him): I really hope that the clip that Marian keeps is the one of your hearts just coming, not out of your chest.
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Adam Weber (he/him): But II think yes, it's rooted. It's rooted in trust, and it's rooted in psychological safety like those are 2 foundational components like, do we trust people? Do we treat them like adults? Do we believe that they want to move the business forward? And do we believe that they want to do great work. I believe that people want to do great work.
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Adam Weber (he/him): And and then do they have an environment where they feel like they can bring up things without fear of retribution. And they there's consistent, steady reaction. So I think those are 2 foundational pieces, and then the the layers on top of that. And this is like it's not. It's actually not an impossible task in my mind like it's I think one is clarity. So
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Adam Weber (he/him): I agree sometimes just a job description alone. That might be a daunting task to try to keep job descriptions up to date.
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Adam Weber (he/him): but every single week having an expectation inside of a company that a direct report and a manager align on the 2 most important things. What are the 2 most important things for you to be working on.
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Adam Weber (he/him): What happens is that they bring up about 16 things. The manager during the week, and the the employee is the one that's left kind of guessing and choosing. That's not their job. It's that is the job of the managers to synthesize, create, focus, and clarity. So so clarity would be number 3 for me is, and that is something that is very doable and achievable inside of organizations to go. Hey, everyone
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Adam Weber (he/him): before the weekends. Let's align between manager and employee. What are the 2 most important things? It is good executive function, it helps people grow. It gets people out of the addiction of busyness. All those things. And then the the fourth part is that you have to create cultures. When when there is trust and psychological safety, you need to have real conversations, then feedback, like actual feedback on. So is it going? Well, we both agreed. It was these 2 things. How am I doing against the 2 things? And you just
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Adam Weber (he/him): that's what con the concept 15 5. Continual performance management. It is not a once a year. It's not twice a year. It is real time all the time we're aligning on priorities, and we're sharing how we're doing against those priorities. And then and then we're we're either helping that person grow. We're unblocking them, you know, all of those things are all included in that.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. And II love that absolutely love that, and especially those continual conversations.
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Danny Gluch: And I think, and th. This is, you know, maybe a little controversial. But II think that a lot of organizations think that purchasing a Saas platform or changing a policy
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Danny Gluch: is then going to like, hey, we did what we need to do when there's a deeper thing right? Like, just because you get 15, 5, or any of their competitors doesn't mean that your managers are able to, or willing to, or your employees are. Gonna accept. Well, those regular conversations.
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Danny Gluch: just like having an unlimited Pto. Policy isn't gonna change your culture on. Do you feel comfortable, taking time off to go to the dentist like basic things, let alone a 2 week.
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Danny Gluch: 3 week long vacation, where you actually get to disconnect from work right? And it's and that's where where I feel like sometimes organizations try to do structural things, but then, just like leave it still up to the individuals to like app. Well, we we paid the money. We wrote the check. Now it's up to you and it just frustrating. It's such a disconnect in the change management piece
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Marion: is what lets it down right? There's not that understanding of really how to implement, change, and how to build your guiding coalition and to build your change agents and to make sure that top down, bottom up sideways. Diagonal, like the whole thing is, is completely moving forward. And you know, in in the right way.
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Marion: And it's hard, because, you know.
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Marion: chief people, officers. We will do the work. We'll go to task and be like to the Cfo and the CEO. And whoever else we need to get
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Marion: approval from blessing from the Pope, whatever to to to take, to buy, you know, to to take 15 fiber or lattice, or whatever right.
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Marion: and we do the work to do that.
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Marion: It's a lot of work and we get it done.
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Marion: But then this is exactly what happens. You know the the if the entire organization doesn't really have that strong change management
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Cacha Dora: utilization drops off, that honeymoon period disappears, and and before you know it, it's it's your company culture takes back over absolutely right. It's the the allure of a birthday gift or or a holiday gift of some sort is great. But if it's not something you're gonna use every day. It just kinda
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Cacha Dora: get set to the side.
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Danny Gluch: It's so stand mixer from your wedding. It's been on your countertop for 8 years and used it twice. Now, now, before we recorded, I did turn this camera around and show you my kitchen, and there's definitely the only thing on that counter is a kitchen aid stand mixer. And I it felt that felt personal, that felt, you know. And have we used it in the last year?
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Cacha Dora: No comment. Real atmosphere. Let's talk about change management, for because I do think
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Adam Weber (he/him): the one of the things that's so hard about hr, and that's different than every other executive inside the org. Is that all the other executives when they, when they build their strategy to execute their strategy, their team of people execute their strategy.
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Adam Weber (he/him): And so there is some level of like you kinda have to do it. If you wanna stay gainfully employed. Hr. Has to implement strategies that cross departments and that people say yes to based on the influence of the Hr. Leader and their ability to convince them that it's valuable.
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Adam Weber (he/him): So a few things just to think about as it relates to change what what I think makes great change management.
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Adam Weber (he/him): The first is, again, I think you're spot on with change management, like buying software doesn't do anything like software is just a thing is a. It's a efficient resource that that hopefully fosters people down the right path right? But you ha! Actually have to have managers use the tool to make it actually work. So one of my rules with change. Management is like
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Adam Weber (he/him): you. You tell people where how things were broken before. So as you and then and then 2 is, you talk people through the process of how you arrived at your solution.
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Adam Weber (he/him): 3. Is you share all the people, all the stakeholders that were involved in getting to this moment and make sure that you name people that are recipients of the end product right? And if you didn't do that, if you didn't get managers involved you. You're it's going to be hard like you should have one or 2 dedicated people that are your allies on implementation. And then, once you roll it out.
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Adam Weber (he/him): Share stories of success. Back like, Go, hey! This person's doing awesome. Look at how this made their life better. Like you.
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Adam Weber (he/him): I. This is like old Hr. Was very compliance focused. And it was like, just do this. And I really believe strategic Hr says the things that we implement actually make your life better, faster, more nimble. They help. You have the right conversations. And so we have an obligation, though, to convince, to sell the organization on these initiatives, and II think that is like the kind of process of great change management. I talk a lot about that in Danny and Kash. I've heard me
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Marion: bang on about this for years, that I think that for, you know, Hr. To to really have any credibility.
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Marion: you can't just talk about the what and the how you need to be able to articulate the why. That's where the credibility comes from. And just as you said the story telling, they've been able to connect the dots. You know all of that and helping people understand. We're not just doing this for shits and giggles. We're doing this because this is what the outcome is. Here's the empirical evidence that shows how this can increase Roi support engagement, you know, whatever those specific needs might be.
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Marion: And I think that that does come down to.
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Marion: You know the the the acumen of of the practitioners, and I think that that's really important, and that takes us in another conversation which could be for another day. But you know the credibility of our profession, I think really based on that and if you aren't able to articulate the why.
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Danny Gluch: you're never gonna move the needle. Yeah. Can you really convince someone like this was and is broken unless we make a change? It's going to lead to really like dire consequences. Right? Bad. Whatever it is, right? It's it's actually broken. If you can't sell someone on that.
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Adam Weber (he/him): you might need to change careers. Yeah, there is such a big part of Hr, I think it's not discussed enough. That is, the is influence. And it is really great. Say, like being good internal salespeople, and also shits and giggles. I don't know if you should consider renaming the podcast but that had a little ring to it. I don't know that could be a it does, it does. But I you know again.
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Marion: one of the things that we we love being able to poke a little bit of fun at ourselves, right? Cause, I think, as a profession. And again, I don't want to deal with conversation, but it's a profession. We've got so much bad rap, so much
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Marion: bad juju like it, you know.
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I say to the guys, I sometimes if someone I mean, you know for me, I
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Marion: for me a nice guy in a bar, and he's like, so what do you do? And I'm like, my 2 people officer, and they're like, What's that? And then you know that you're gonna have to see
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Cacha Dora: Adam. It's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's, it's, it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's, it's it's
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Cacha Dora: instead of kind of empowering those managers to have those conversations to be giving that feedback to be giving that development. Instead, we've got a lot of managers who either are inexperienced or haven't been coached and developed themselves. And so what happens is, they go right back to Hr. And Hr. Is the one that delivers the bad news on
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Cacha Dora: behalf of the manager. Right? And and so that's where that Hr. App comes from. Is that? That, and oftentimes not fun conversations like that right?
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Danny Gluch: And that's just the world we live in, right like we always talk about putting out fires. You don't put out fires because fires are right. They're they're dangerous, like it's it's.
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Danny Gluch: you know, you put them out. I really wanna know where that term came from. Because, anyways, this is, I'm gonna do some research after this.
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Danny Gluch: okay? So we clearly solved the issue of of employee wellbeing, due to lack of clarity right like in. And III really loved so much of what you said, Adam. And and everyone
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Danny Gluch: being able to offer that clarity, and and with the the force behind it of change management. Not just like, Hey, we're making a change now. Now, it's up to you individually to go do it. But organizationally, we have a plan to really help people get on board right? We have that plan for change management like really seems to make sense.
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Danny Gluch: But what about this busyness culture like, how how do you go in? And yeah, I've got ideas. But I wanna hear especially Adam, like, wh what do you do? When if if you were to to switch companies, someone's like Adam, we're gonna give you a hundred 1 million dollars to work with us for a year so like I can't turn this down.
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Danny Gluch: and you go in. And within the first week you realize, like, Oh, this is a business busyness culture. People are like. Oh, my calendar is full! Ha, ha, ha! Ha! Ha! You must not be busy at all. I've been in back to backs all day
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Danny Gluch: like
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Danny Gluch: it? Clearly the answer can't just be, hey, individual, stop being so busy like, what? How do you fix that right again? Structurally, what what can you do, and just enabling a policy isn't gonna do enough. Like
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Adam Weber (he/him): right? Yeah, that's I mean, there's I don't even know if there is like a super easy fix to it, and and one of the things on business I always like want to add a caveat. What I'm not saying. I love working hard
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Adam Weber (he/him): like I love it. I love to do do hard things, and like II think sometimes what I also never wanna communicate like, like, I built 2 businesses, you know, over 10 years, and like it was it was a level of it was a velocity of work that was exceptional. I would like it was, it would took everything I had. And I'm proud of that.
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Adam Weber (he/him): But and so it's not what I don't, you know. It's not like oh, lifestyle. And this thing, that thing. It's not that it's like, it's it's bigger than that. It's it's what you're saying. It's not getting stuck in the busyness cycle.
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Adam Weber (he/him): I wonder? You know, sometimes, like a small thing, I don't. These are just ticky Tag. I don't know if this solves the whole issue, but just like
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Adam Weber (he/him): 2 90 min at my very peak busyness. The thing that really helped me was 2 small changes I made for myself. I didn't need the whole org. To do them was, one is every day before the end of the day I have a post at note. I still do this, and I write down. What are the 2 big things I have to accomplish every single day. So that before I get into my email and my slack, I am just getting used to going. Don't forget. This is the real. The measure of success today is on this card. It's not all the other stuff that's gonna start flying, I use, and then
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Adam Weber (he/him): the other is like just getting really honest about your own productivity blocks, and where you're like the best. So, for example, for me.
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Adam Weber (he/him): If I don't. And you guys are getting me at peak time right now. 100'clock tits 1030 am. This is this is my power time like, if we recorded this at the afternoon. You're like man, he he's really dragging. He really brought the energy down. But I know that about myself. And so Tuesday and Thursdays 9 to 1030 blocked my calendar, actually honored it, kept it sacred, and would get that was like my focus work. And that's about
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Adam Weber (he/him): candidly for myself, that's even a little bit of a stretch of like how long I can probably stay focused for 75 min at a time. And that's why I move all around my house like I just need to be moving and
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Adam Weber (he/him): little focused efforts. But being honest about? When can I tackle hard problems? Like? When do I have that inside of me? And then how do I protect that? And just say no.
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Danny Gluch: just say no part. I wanna lean on that, too. Yeah, I feel like that can be a cultural shift. And and one of the things that I'm really passionate about. I know Marion is, and and II believe you are, too, Adam and Kasha, I, you and I talked about this probably worth it. Anyone
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Danny Gluch: is
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Danny Gluch: the idea of something like an abbreviated workweek, like a 4 day, 32 h, not a 4 day, 40 h, 4 day, 32 h work week
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Danny Gluch: gets a cultural momentum of saying No of you know what I can. You just give me the clip notes of that meeting. I've got other more important work to do, where you actually get more by doing less because you you don't have the time just to be wasted.
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Danny Gluch: And and I think that the little policies like that organizational design decisions can start to get people to say, No, I I'm not doing that.
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Danny Gluch: even if it's one of those like
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Danny Gluch: II obviously would never recommend that everyone has. Tuesday, Thursday from 9 Am. To 1030 as your your power block, because that's not what we're everyone's best right but saying everyone needs to have 2 90 min periods a week would be really helpful, right? Not not that same exact time, but again, just getting that like
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Danny Gluch: that mentality, that momentum, that inertia of say no to what isn't important
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Danny Gluch: and really focus on your priorities. Again, there's that clarity that brings a lot of psychological fulfillment. Happiness, safety, right? Clarity helps with safety. Right? It. It fits with the whole honesty. Psychological safety bit. So I just that's me being crazy, you know. Theoretical philosopher, Guy. But W. What are y'all's thoughts on on things like policies that could really help that inertia of saying No, and being more
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Cacha Dora: efficient, productive, useful of our time. Well, the one thing I want to just kind of highlight about the importance of saying no is that
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Cacha Dora: before we go into the policy conversation just on the people, like individuals, all 4 of us.
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Cacha Dora: and any everyone listening have probably all had very different journeys on. How comfortable they got to be able to say no, because we grow up with a lot of people really wanting us to say yes. And so from a young age, you know, being able to have boundaries, being able to like, Adam was saying, right self, assess on what, how you do, what you do best and like, what times are you most effective and what times you like? Oh, it's 40'clock, like
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Cacha Dora: my brain's done by. I don't know 40'clock meetings, please. You know what I mean like just being able to understand that. But like you've got people who like we hear the phrase, people please, or a lot and if you've got that organizational culture that really is busy saying, no is like scary right? And so I think I'm 100 for saying no, especially when it's
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Cacha Dora: exactly like what we've just outlined. But I think there's a lot of people who truly struggle with that before the organization even gets them there. Do you think that happens with with age or professional experience, or going to therapy like you learn to do that. We're gonna say, like D, all of the above, right, like we all come from different backgrounds on, on, where that could come from.
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Marion: This did it leave to to personal journey, like, I always see, you know what impact you outside of work will always impact you inside of work, right? Because we are. We don't. We can't really compartmentalize who we are. We say that leave everything at the door is a fallacy. Is bullshit right? So
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Marion: if you have, you can have the best organizational culture in the world. Right?
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Marion: But if you, as an individual, maybe have codependency tendencies or had things new background, identify child, whatever that might be. Right. That's part of your hard wire.
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Marion: And so you're still bringing that with you to work, even if the overarching culture of the organization
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Marion: is trying is trying to do something different. So there will always be. It's not. It's never gonna be a perfect world. You're never gonna have everybody coming in. And it's like.
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Danny Gluch: so it's all you know, like.
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Marion: not reality. Right? Right? We talked about trauma.
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Marion: If we're bringing our true sales to work. So I'm doing excellent to do the thing. But it didn't do it. If we're bringing our true self to work, we're always gonna bring that flavor with this right? So it's always so. I think first thing is, be honest. We have to be honest as as organizations, as people leaders is is human beings that
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Marion: we're never gonna create a Utopia people. It always gonna bring their own baggage with them. And it's how do we recognize that and work with it really, to to try to create a greater good. People aren't great at saying no, of course you know.
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Danny Gluch: Adam.
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Danny Gluch: what do you? I mean? I love your your sit down with the post it, and write 2 things on it. I. Is there a way to like.
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Danny Gluch: have organizations value the focus on those things, the the the recognition of accomplishing those 2 really important things.
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Danny Gluch: that that could maybe help
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Danny Gluch: pull people out of just saying they're busy and being like, no.
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Danny Gluch: these are the 2 things that that are really gonna make me effective. Right? And I love the idea of effective over productivity like that's that's such a I love that you. You keep using that word because that's what we really want. We want impact, right? And those those are the 2 most important things is, is there something that organizations can do around those like
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Danny Gluch: that? Real high prioritization that can help move that forward a little bit?
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Adam Weber (he/him): That's such a great question. I'm also still processing this last, this last part of like II just shared this thing that said, most leadership issues are just unresolved personal insecurities or traumas, and then they just go and little jabs all across the organization.
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Adam Weber (he/him): we can lean into that if you want that? Well, no, no, I wanna. I wanna talk about the thing you just said. I just also wanted to add that little, that little detail, because I. Part of this working is really like the in at the individual level, doing priorities like for the individual. They have to believe what they're saying. No to that. They actually have a better thing. They're saying yes to, and they actually believe it. And I think a lot of times people don't believe the thing they're saying yes to is a value. And so one find inside it like
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Adam Weber (he/him): pick things you actually believe in that are worth fighting for. And then, but to cascade it
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Adam Weber (he/him): like you do need organizational clarity. Does. Is there company wide alignment on what is important inside of the organization where we're going and then as that, then cascades down to that manager and employee, those things hopefully, naturally sort of to filter in into that and then at the leadership level
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Adam Weber (he/him): displaying this yourself. So one thing I would love and like, want more companies to adopt, and it feels so simple is just the ability to opt out of meetings. Like most there meetings, meetings, is probably the number one. Productivity killer may well, number one is nobody knows what they're doing inside of an org. Number 2 is meetings, and especially recurring meetings with too many people that aren't valuable in the meetings.
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Adam Weber (he/him): And so how do we create cultures where it is okay and appropriate to question the validity of the meeting itself. or question your own participation and actually value someone who goes, hey? Actually, because I'm working on this other project, II think it's probably better that I stay focused. And everybody's like, yes, let's celebrate it.
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Adam Weber (he/him): and that I think when leaders exhibit that themselves, when they show rigor and discipline around questioning the value of meetings, I do. I used to and II have some friends at another tech company at the time, who used to just every year, at the end of the year, just delete every single recurring meeting, and then let them earn their way back like that, like that shows to everyone else like, Hey, we value you. We trust you. We trust your time
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Adam Weber (he/him): a lot of meeting the meeting culture is tied to that same busyness culture. We don't trust people enough to know that with open space they're gonna move the business forward. And so rather, what we do is wanna restrict their open space and keep them in a meeting. And just II yeah, I fundamentally think it just slows a lot of companies down and progress down. And II feel like I feel like that's even kind of got worse.
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Marion: On the back of the pandemic and working at home. Because, you, you know the early days of the pandemic.
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Marion: you felt the pressure to have that little green light on your slack. See? I'm on line like I'm here, you know. And unfortunately.
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Marion: sadly, a lot of that mistrust that you fail.
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Marion: surreptitiously, I guess, like it was kind of stealth
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Marion: untrust that was coming from leadership teams because they couldn't publicly see. We don't trust you because everyone's in this pandemic situation. So you you couldn't. You'd know other bloody option right? But they're all couple. And your people. They're really showing who they are.
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Marion: Leaders are really showing who they are and every day I'm on Linkedin, and someone runs a poll to say, you know.
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Marion: if you'd offered a job and it demanded in the office. So you're gonna take it, 95% say, no. Right?
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Marion: So all of that together, in this this
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Marion: constant sense of mistrust, I feel like there's just this big explosion that's going to happen. It's a standoff, right? Employees, employers. Unfortunately, employers have the power right now, because
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Marion: the job situation economy. Yes. State, the Union. We've got low unemployment. Great. However, that doesn't seem to be the reality. Certainly in er
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Marion: what does a lot of our people in our profession are are not working at the moment. This podcast is 50 unemployed. Yeah, that's true.
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Adam Weber (he/him): Read some life into these orgs. Let's get some legit people leaders come on exactly, Danny and I available for bar mitzvahs waiting
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Marion: dynamics. We've got this
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Marion: lack of trust. We've got this fear that employees have about having to be. I must be online. I must be busy. And we always the stories during the pandemic where people actually worked more because they were so paranoid about people thinking that they weren't doing the work. And guess what happens. All the Ceos turn round 2 years later and go. We don't trust you.
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Marion: So you're gonna have to be back in the office. And even though we don't have any data to support that Amazon, we're still gonna have you back in the office. Right?
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Marion: I
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Danny Gluch: how do we fix this? Because again, it just keeps perpetuating, and we have to break the cycle. II think part of the problem is that it's so easy to be in a Zoom Meeting.
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Danny Gluch: It's right like it's
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Danny Gluch: you are in more meetings now, because it's just easy to be like, oh, it's on your calendar. All you have to do is click in.
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Danny Gluch: And it's III actually almost think that being in office would be like. No, look I, if I came into the office. You're not wasting my time with that meeting. I've got other things to do. Iii don't. I don't know. That's just a gut feeling no data support that
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Danny Gluch: driving an hour into Los Angeles. You better bet I'm not gonna show up to a meeting with 35 people, where I have nothing to bring to it, and you take nothing home from it, either, or that thing that could have been is like 5 sentences of a summary from otter or Chat Gp. Or whoever it is. Zoom assistant AI, whatever they're calling the little sparkle button.
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Danny Gluch: I just we need to do better. And and II love the the focus on effectiveness rather than productivity. the well-being over busy.
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Danny Gluch: and some something that Kashia and I love to do when we work together. More formally was was have like actual dedicated times during a work week. Maybe it would happen 2, 3, 4 times, sometimes 5
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Danny Gluch: during the work week, when when it was just sometimes none. Yeah. Well, sometimes not fair. When when it was our dedicated time to come together as a team to not be productive. We're we're gonna dedicate some time to just being a team, and it never felt inauthentic or forced, or like. Here's your mandatory, you know, prescribed
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Danny Gluch: team wanting time. Right? It was. It was just. We came together to do things that we were interested, or have conversations, and sometimes that would turn into like actual work and and support of one another.
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Danny Gluch: And
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Danny Gluch: II feel like companies are scared to give employees that freedom, let alone that like mandate of like, Hey, you need to find time amongst your team
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Danny Gluch: to not look at those 2 most important things, and realize that your your connection to one another is going to help those 2 most important things, and like finding that balance is like
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Danny Gluch: so extraordinarily hard for me that you you all are much more experienced, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on. How do you balance this like
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Danny Gluch: team proximity closeness.
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Danny Gluch: You know II called it recess, right like we called it our stuff in things meetings, because sometimes we do stuff. Sometimes we do things.
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Danny Gluch: Adam, how do you find that balance between that hyper, effective focus moment that like, Hey, I'm really like, I have the clarity. I'm gonna work towards it. But also that like, Hey, I can't always be working towards that.
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Adam Weber (he/him): Relate to my team that doggone alerted to something. Did someone try to something happen? I really hope the mailman doesn't come for the last like couple of minutes.
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Adam Weber (he/him): just till it's all good. Well, what? So? One?
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Adam Weber (he/him): I think I think one thing is, I don't want to dismiss. I love that. You all do that. I think that's like that. You did that. I think that's beautiful, and that's like that was like a great picture of what a healthy team is like. Healthy teams have both of these things. And if you don't have a great relationship. You can't really work through hard things together. Conflict comes up and you put your blinders on or you react, you overly react.
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Adam Weber (he/him): And when you have a foundation of relationship. You can actually like productively work through conflict. I actually think this is one of the hardest things about remote is that work has gotten a little transactional and without that found foundation of relationship. Sometimes just things aren't said, and then it. It starts to create these like W
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Adam Weber (he/him): inefficiencies inside of the organization. And so it's really important. And you can do it through stuff and things sessions. You can do it by every single. When you do get your team together. Ha! Starting with a check in question like with what we always do with all all of our team meetings. The first 5 min is always relationship. It's just like a quick like, Hey, favorite movie from the nineties go. And just like things like that, they they don't have to take a super long time.
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Adam Weber (he/him): but I think they matter because they help you. They help. You know how to collaborate. They help, you know that other person is a human being. You know that sort of thing. I'm sorry. Hold on 1 s. Get my dog here. Real life app.
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Cacha Dora: Get back here, Poppy.
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Adam Weber (he/him): Okay, I'm a good editor. Don't worry. Okay, I was. I mean, I'm fine. If you leave it in, it's real life, whatever happens.
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Marion: That was laughing. Just when you said the the that kind of like question, you know, favorite movie from the nineties. Kasha and I both work for a large tech retailer in the shape of a fruit at some stage in our life, and my favorite one was always
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Marion: most embarrassing song on your ipod. Let's go. That was the best
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Danny Gluch: I somehow knew. That's what was gonna be said. I don't know how I do that.
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Danny Gluch: I never told you that, but like again encouraging that, and having, like again this, it's not a policy from up on high that ours now mandating. Every meeting must have 5 min of this. It's just a cultural thing of like wanna get to know people. II think it's also fun
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Cacha Dora: barriers down sort of way. Take off some of that body armor, you know. Yeah, I also think it's really am important and impactful for team dynamics when we are remote, because there's not an easy way for people to let off steam with each other. And let's be honest. Work can be really frustrating. Things can happen. Policies can change that affect us as employees, and that we have to to message out.
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Cacha Dora: There's a lot of layoffs that have happened, and you need to be able to kind of like emotionally recalibrate with people. You know, there's a lot of reasons why getting your team together and not, you know, having this massive work product is really impactful. And I think when we think about what busy looks like.
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Cacha Dora: Busy, you can't be busy if your brain's occupied with other things, and so, being able to enable your team
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or have your manager enable you to just be like.
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Cacha Dora: Hey, this happened? Hey? How's your project going? Do you just want to like?
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Cacha Dora: What are you doing this weekend? And that's all you do. Yeah, go invite, frustrated Frank out for a walk and talk. Yeah, sometimes. That's what you gotta do. But I just like it's the human connection. I think it's so important and so impactful because within the Hr space, yes, we're
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Cacha Dora: adopting tech. And we're creating policies.
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Cacha Dora: but none of that's effective. If we don't have some of those things you were talking about, Adam, that trust, that psychological safety, that clarity, all of those things can come from non-work meetings if that makes sense.
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Danny Gluch: Well, I we're coming up on time. That was a fast like 50 min. But I just wanted to to say, Adam, that II love all that you brought to this conversation, and I really do think that
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Danny Gluch: we've given some really practical things for organizational leaders to look at, to think at.
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Danny Gluch: to look at how they could implement, to really change, how
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Danny Gluch: their culture can really support their their structure can really support employee wellbeing. And I think that is incredibly valuable. And I want to get final thoughts from you. In a second. But if anyone wants to hear more of those nuggets from Adam, please check out his Hr. Superstars. Podcast it is very well done. Much higher production level than this one.
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Danny Gluch: I could admit that. But yeah, he, he does those things. It's a very regular podcast it's not like one of these monthly quarterly things they, you know, they even did a live show which I was at the actual first live. Show these people in Austin saying that was the first live show. I was like, I'm not gonna bring down their high. I'm gonna let them have this moment. But I know the truth.
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Adam Weber (he/him): It was the first dedicated podcast only event where we went to a city just to record the podcast a lot of cast that that doesn't go well on social media. That's too many characters. Yeah. But I appreciate you talking about the podcast I love doing it. And I hope it serves the Hr community. And I just unfortunate enough. I get amazing guests on there, too, that really come in like are really transparent and and share. So
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Danny Gluch: that's awesome. Well, anyone have a a last share about
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Danny Gluch: the structuring, designing organizations to help wellbeing rather than just making sure employees do it on their own. Yeah, take your blinkers off, educate yourself, and just have a bit of bloody courage. Have some balls right? Don't keep doing things the same way. You always did it, because guess what?
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Marion: You're crazy. I've never heard of phrase that way. But sure. right, if you think if you keep doing things the same way it doesn't, it doesn't change, then you're just quickly. So you know. There we go. Well, thank you so much, Adam. Again. Everyone check out Hr superstars. You can find it on, I assume, spotify, I always find it on the apple podcast app
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Danny Gluch: also follow Adam on Linkedin Adam. What's your linked linkedincom slash in slash? Meet Adam?
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Danny Gluch: Meet Adam. There we go, like, if you were meeting the first human
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Danny Gluch: anyways, be sure to give a like subscribe 5 Star Review. If you have any questions or thoughts on topics. Email us at Elephant at the fearless px.com. Thank you. Everyone see you next time.
