Hire Today, Gone Tomorrow: Navigating the Disposable Work Era

In this eye-opening episode of "The Elephant in the Org," titled "Hire Today, Gone Tomorrow: Navigating the Disposable Work Era," our fearless hosts Marion, Cacha, and Danny dive deep into the precarious nature of modern employment. The FPX trio embarks on a candid exploration of the layoff culture that's come to define the current job landscape, inspired by insights from Ann Kowalsmith's compelling Forbes article, "3 Reasons Why This Season of Layoffs May Destroy the Future of Work." They peel back the layers of this troubling trend, discussing its emotional toll on employees, the erosion of workplace trust, and the implications for the future of employee-employer relations.

As job security becomes increasingly mythical, our hosts share personal anecdotes and reflections on how the gig economy and temporary positions have shifted our understanding of stable employment. They tackle the big questions: Is job stability a relic of the past? What can be done to combat the rise of disposable work culture? And importantly, how can individuals navigate this new era to safeguard their careers and mental health? This episode doesn't just highlight problems; it also searches for solutions, contemplating the potential of labor unions, legislation, and corporate culture shifts to mitigate layoff culture's adverse effects.

Tune in to "Hire Today, Gone Tomorrow" for a thought-provoking discussion that goes beyond the headlines to explore the real-world impacts of job insecurity and what it means for the future of work. Whether you're navigating your own career uncertainties or simply interested in the changing dynamics of the workforce, this episode offers valuable insights and strategies for resilience in an era of uncertainty. Don't miss this essential conversation—subscribe, listen, and join us in rethinking the value of work and the importance of job security in our lives.

You can find the full show notes here. 

📩 Got a hot take or a workplace horror story? Email us at elephant@thefearlesspx.com

🚀 Your Hosts on LinkedIn

• 🐘 Marion Anderson — https://www.linkedin.com/in/marionandersonpx
  
  
• 🐘 Danny Gluch — https://www.linkedin.com/in/dgluch
  
  
• 🐘 Cacha Dora — https://www.linkedin.com/in/cachadora
  
  

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🎙️ About the Show
The Elephant in the Org drops new episodes every two weeks starting April 2024 — fearless conversations about leadership, psychological safety, and the future of work.

🎵 Music & Production Credits
🎶 Opening and closing theme music by The Toros
🎙️ Produced by The Fearless PX
✂️ Edited by Marion Anderson

⚠️ Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests, and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations' official policy or position.

Topics: employee surveys, listening culture, trust, people analytics, psychological safety, em...

Transcript

Episode 23 - Hire Today, Gone Tomorrow: Navigating the Disposable Work Era

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Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the elephant in the org, everyone. I'm Danny Gluch. I'm joined by my Co. Hosts, Cacha Dora

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Cacha: Hello, and Marion Anderson. Marion: Good morning.

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Danny Gluch: And today's special elephant is

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Danny Gluch: the layoff culture. And it's it's sad that it's like, it's an actual cultural thing. It's like, Oh, what about our like pizza party culture or our golfing culture. No, nothing. Fun lay offs.

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Danny Gluch: There's an article about layoff. Culture is here to stay. And then there was another article about layoff culture being, well, what's the title do to do to do?

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Danny Gluch: this season of layoffs may destroy the future of work. That's optimistic.

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Danny Gluch: Yeah, Forbes coming in with the big punches. I feel like we just need to talk about that like is is the future of work destroyed, and is laying off culture here to stay.

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Marion: Oh, I

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Marion: probably. Well, everything is. It's like fashion, right? Everything comes and cycles, you know, for a lot of the time we look at double denim, and we think good grief what we thinking. But weirdly enough, I'm seeing this season doubled back in. So

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Marion: it's a

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Marion: it could be a full power one year, and you know, did it go the next?  This scares me in a way, because it completely erodes.

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Marion: Well, everything but psychological safety. Trust all of that. I mean, that just goes without saying. But  There's a bit of me that's like.

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Marion: what if, though? What if

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Marion: this leads to some form of positive transformation. Hear me out, and I'm still probably thinking this through my head myself.

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Marion: But we've been listening to financial experts. Tell us for the last.

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Marion: however, many years. That diversifying your portfolio is important, or having secondary income is important. Right?

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Marion: I'm so. I wonder if the model of fractional. actually could almost help people have more consistency over

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Marion: their their their drops, basically in terms of if the lay off culture does become more of a universal thing, which is a potent. But if it does.

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Marion: does the you know, having fractional mean that you're not having all your eggs in one basket, so to speak.

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Cacha Dora: Do do you know what I mean? I think I think it kind of depends on like where you are in your career, though right like, if you're if you're young and you're either just out of college, or maybe you're in the workforce before entering college.

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Cacha Dora: and there are layoffs. Well, now you're just rebuilding your life over and over again, and that can also be a cycle, right? Because, unfortunately, employers have bias when they see lots of job movement. They have bias when they they see, maybe like 4, career moves on someone's resume.

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Cacha Dora: Unfortunately, right? We know bias does exist. But I also completely agree with you, Marion, that

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Cacha Dora: this trend right? We all talk about how humans are are people, not resources. And this layoff culture is really using that phrase, human capital in an ugly way. Because

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Cacha Dora: in order to keep stocks up and help shareholders there, the companies are affecting thousands of people. What was it like last year. I don't remember the exact number, but I feel like it was like just in the tech industry alone. There were over 200,000 layoffs, or something like like people laid off and

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Cacha Dora: like not that. That's a lot of people to go into fractional. So I think it'll help for some. But

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Cacha Dora: II don't.

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Cacha Dora: You know. I think I think companies need to treat people like people a bit more. 100% used to be a black mark right on the CEO's record, like back, like I remember, like being in school and learning about business, and like what the concept of layoffs was, and it was like, Oh, the the cases in our textbooks at the time where Ceos got voted off by the board if they had a layoff.

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Marion: Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a Pr disaster and I mean it still is. But I don't. Wanna I don't wanna turn this into plus conversation, cause this is definitely not what we'd about, but I keep hearing that unemployment is the lowest. It's been in a long time.

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Marion: I watched some news coverage yesterday, you know it's it's under 4%.

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Marion: I'm scratching my head at that, because so many lay offs

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Marion: low unemployment. We did the ongoing like, well, I mean, Mary, and this this brings you back to the fractional stuff. It's

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Danny Gluch: if you're not unemployed. If you're working lyft or uber eats part time to fill in the gaps, and it's I was already not making enough money in my 9 to 5 job, because cost of living is what it is. So I was. You know, II literally was, you know, teaching it a university full time running a program and

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Danny Gluch: the working lift on the weekends like 20 h, because III needed to make

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Danny Gluch: money, and you know everyone kind of jokes like, Oh, is, lift all you do when they get in, or do you do something else. Yeah, I teach at the university like. And and so if if I were to get laid off, it's oh, no, I'm not unemployed. I'm this other thing. And it's it's almost like the this, like these experts that you mentioned before, who are talking about diversifying your portfolio as far as an income earner. To be more resilient. Yada Yada.

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Danny Gluch: like have all these fractional things lined up? Be be your own marketing team, be your own biz dev team like all these other things other than just doing a job and have making that be enough to like. Afford a house and college for your kids, and all that stuff and vacations and a boat. Do you know, people used to buy boats anyways?

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Danny Gluch: like it's almost like those experts are kind of in it to look at certain numbers like, Oh, hey! Unemployment's down economies. Good things are good, and it's it's not scrapping and rent is 50% of our income on a good day. And now we also need a side hustle, and our hobbies now need to be like

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Danny Gluch: something that we can make money on on twitch or on Youtube, or sell it on Etsy. We can't just like

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Danny Gluch: work 9 to 5. By the way, it used to be like 9 to 5, not 8 to 5.

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Danny Gluch: All of this is just we're getting squeezed more and more. And and I think this is such a great example of that unemployment being low. And we all know it's not yeah. Everything with unemployment being low is I don't remember when it happens. But at some point they phase people out of the statistic.

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Cacha Dora: so like the system itself is gamed. Right unemployed is is when you're still actively looking, actively looking. And there's another thing, and I can't remember if it's like what like 6 to 8 months or something. And you know, just from seeing everyone's post on Linkedin, that

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Cacha Dora: people have been unemployed for at some points like over a year, trying to find new work right like. But I don't remember. I don't remember when when they're you know gaming.

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Marion: I'm assuming the data that they're referring to are those drawing on employment. So I suppose when that runs out until the next cycle, because I think it comes back, if I understand correctly.

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Marion: when you start your next year, or whatever. But maybe is that I don't know if anyone's listening to this and knows the answer, please, we're open for education, peerless Pxcom, for all of our labor lawyers. Yeah, but but II am scratching my head because all of these lay offs.

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Marion: You just have to open up Linkedin, and it's a sea of green banners open to work.

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Marion: And II read a post the other day that someone was reaching out to the network for the third time in 2 years that they've been laid off.

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Marion: Yup, yeah, I think I saw that same post. It would be even worse if it was a different post. It might be it very well might be, but I mean I think

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Cacha Dora: God just thinking about how people's emotional and psychological states are. And you mentioned psychological safety and trust at the at the very beginning of this

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Marion: one of the things Forbes also calls out is how it disenfranchises those who stay like

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Cacha Dora: the the amount of guilt and shame that it's like a survivors guilt right, especially when

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Cacha Dora: some of these layoffs have no real rhyme or reason, and you have teams just split in half.

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Marion: and

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Cacha Dora: everyone's kind of looking at each other. Now that lack of trust happening like, are, am I next? When's the next one? You've done it once? So it's gonna happen again.

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Marion: It's true. I mean you know it. It it should not be.

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Marion: It should not be a tool in your tool box that you're pulling out, you know.

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Marion: Willy Nellie, right? And it should be a a, an absolute last resort, which historically, is what it was right. And the fact that.

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Marion: you know we're we're treating people like cattle and we're seeing them as as disposable is absolutely abhorrent. When did we stop? Given a share about people.

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Danny Gluch: you know, a a really interesting bit of history. I learned reading some Simon Sinek and and some other sort of business leadership books.

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Danny Gluch: There was a philosophical economic change in the late seventies. Early eighties right, the rise of trickle down economics, the weakening of labor unions, all of that coincided

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Danny Gluch: with the idea of right. Remember the the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker version of economics of like, Hey, the the community needs a service. I make a good or a service. W. We meet, and if they're willing to pay a certain amount, I make a certain amount right? It shifted from that sort of meeting a market need to the the purpose of the business is to make the owner and shareholders money.

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Danny Gluch: and it's no longer about serving a community need. It's about, how do we maximize this money and you started to see a lot of product quality get really, really low. And it's all like, Wait, we just we don't care about making it. Well, we just wanna make it for as cheaply as possible. So that happened a lot in in the like. The late seventies, early eighties and Detroit is still trying to recover from this, because one of the biggest cost centers

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Danny Gluch: cost centers and giant air quotes because you can't make cars without labor, and I mean it's closer now than it ever was with robots. But the big cost center that got cut to make cars cheaper and and increase profit margins was

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Danny Gluch: massive layoffs of the labor force. Let's let's just move it to Mexico. Oh, well, let's do it again. Let's move it over to the next cheapest place in the next cheapest place, right? That outsourcing of labor. That happened that that wasn't really a thing. Aside from like those last like ditch efforts just to save an entire company that you were mentioning earlier. That was like

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Marion: again, post industrial revolution. No one got laid off when we're all working on farms. We either died of famine or you. You had a job.

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Danny Gluch: And it's so post industrial revolution when it was like, Oh, my goodness, like, we're really struggling. We have to do layoffs. Otherwise, just like we don't exist

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Danny Gluch: changed in you know what? 50 years ago. That's not that long ago to.

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Marion: We need to do layoffs and not not even we need to. We can do layoffs as a way to maximize profits. That's a big change. End up well for the automakers. Well, no. And and actually, there's just a little paragraph here. I'd love to read in in kind of dissect that with you, because it it follows on from that

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Marion: the existential and reputational risk of headcount churn is immeasurable.

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Marion: Oh, my gosh! My laptop decided to reset the page just as I started reading it. Don't you love like.

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Marion: exactly. It's okay. I can welcome to real life happening in the middle of A, podcast I can edit this out, the existential and reputational risk of headcount turn is immeasurable, literally and figuratively following a lay off 70% of Co companies struggle with talent acquisition. After all, how many people will re risk working for a company that repeatedly lays off large swaths of its workforce.

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Marion: and counting on the remaining employees to help a lot is a lost cause. 77% of surviving employees lose faith in the company and stop being champions

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Marion: at a time when hiring is harder than ever. Parentheses. There are 12.1 million open jobs in the Us. Right now, and the future of work is still undefined. Today's layoff epidemic is sabotal sabotaging tomorrow's performance.

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Cacha Dora: Oh, hmm! I like that so well. I don't like that, but I like the phrase sabotaging the performance, because you know, each. We talk heavily about psychological safety and

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Cacha Dora: psychological safety directly impacts a culture and individuals, innovative work behavior that they go through in their job on a daily basis. Right? Maybe it's own episode. Innovative work. Behavior is a great, great conversation, but not today's but the aspect of it right? Like, if your job is problem solving

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Cacha Dora: effectively for whatever it is that you're doing, you need a certain amount of mental headroom

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Marion: to think that way. Yes.

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Danny Gluch: you need stability. And this is II loved the phrasing because it is. It's such a reminder that these are

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Danny Gluch: short term gains that are unrelated to like company productivity. This is all about like stock. Buy back shareholder value. It has nothing to do with the the quality of the product. And and again, this, it it goes back to a lot of companies would rather see their stock prices increase

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Danny Gluch: than people buying their product or service, because to them that brings them more value because it brings them more capital. But it has nothing to do with what the company is actually doing. Why, it exists, and when you cut off.

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Danny Gluch: like the goal of a company from from why it exists and what it like produces, and the the goods or services like, you've kind of lost the plot. And and that's that's what like Tesla Tesla did. They're the most valuable auto manufacturer in the history of the world.

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Danny Gluch: They don't make that many cards and their profits are not insanely huge. It's because their stock price.

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Danny Gluch: right? It's it's the cost of entry to be a a stock owner of Tesla is really, really high, because a lot of people want to do it and like that's great. And it gives them a lot of financial ability to do stuff and make cars.

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Danny Gluch: but it doesn't make their cars any better.

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Marion: It it doesn't make their cars have more profit. Margins. III think the Ed market is is an interest in. When I was listening to a podcast the other day, with Cara swisher, and they were talking exactly about Tay's lab, also

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Marion: Elon Musk. Generally she's not the biggest fan of Elon Musk, which is fun to me. But ultimately with him, being officially the

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Marion: richest man in the world, or the second richest man in the world.

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Marion: A lot of that equities in him, right? And a lot of that does is not from Tesla, because, as you see, the the margins that actually pretty slim, but it's from the other. No, it's not. It's from the other stuff that he does like starling right, which is heavily contracted by governments for

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Marion: communications and basics and all of that stuff. So that's really where the money comes from. Going back to your diversification conversation. We're not billionaires. And like this is, this is one of the things that that I you know, as we start to wrap up a little bit

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Danny Gluch: is

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Danny Gluch: like what happened to the days when, like one person in the household could work

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Danny Gluch: 9 to 5 and and we be stable, and they didn't have to worry about whether or not they were being laid off. They were just a school teacher, and it was like, that's enough like we've gotten so far from that to now, even like now.

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Cacha Dora: dual income households are terrified of their bills or their groceries like, because the overall cost of living increase. If they do get laid off, they're they're hooped to borrow. My friend Joel's right. They're just. They're done. They're they're forget about it. Yeah. But I think I think that you're right, though, Danny, in that, you know. And and I think

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Cacha Dora: our workforce right now is feeling that sentiment really heavily, because we have a big change happening in our workforce. What? It's like. Thousands of

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Cacha Dora:  people within the baby boomer generation are leaving the workforce on a daily, weekly monthly basis, something like that. And so there's more Gen. Xers. We've got more millennials and more genze who are working in this workforce, who have seen that example and are asking why it's gone.

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Cacha Dora: They're asking why they can't do that. And I it is causing that disenfranchisement.

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Marion: It's causing that lack of trust. It's causing a lot of those things, cause they were like, well.

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Cacha Dora: you were able to buy a house and have it. Only take like, 25% of your life income out of the equation.

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Cacha Dora: I can't even afford groceries because they used to be 75 bucks. And now it's a hundred 50, yeah. And

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Cacha Dora: and and I think that

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Cacha Dora: the the combination and the timing right like, when you think about all of this happening in a really short timeframe. Right. We just the pandemic started in 2020. We started to see the rise, the cost of the rise of living. Or I'm sorry, I said. The backwards the rise of the cost of living start to grow. At the same time we saw these layoffs starting to happen, because during this time period companies were experiencing massive profits, and with those massive profits came

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Cacha Dora: layoffs. And so I find it.

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Cacha Dora: And and now we have. That's a logical natural conclusion. Profits come lay offs. It seems to be now inside.

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Marion: but it's just weird, like all of this has happened. And like this little bubble of time, a really small bubble of time when you think about when and how long it takes economic change to actually happen. And you know the the, this weird microcosm of the last 3 years

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Marion: is such an anomaly right? Because the pandemic, and then everything that was in e-commerce sort of Jason just

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Marion: exploded during that time, and then we all know the over higher nonsense that that most, the trap that most people fell into and then quickly realized. Oh, shit! Oh, sure which drove up unnaturally the cost of talent.

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Marion: And now not what we're seeing is that again.

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Marion: in those sectors, in those, you know, tech and knowledge sectors where they're having to downsize because they overhired, and because they paid these out of market salaries.

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Marion: Now, that screwed everything. Because then these are the people that are let go. and then, when roles do open again, there's such a an imbalance and salaries with those that are still there versus those coming in. And it's just. It's a fucking mess.

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Danny Gluch: Yeah. Well, to go back to something you said. II can't. It was. I think both of you mentioned sort of gaming right? It's it's a system, and it's a game. And and people are just kind of playing it. And it's

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Danny Gluch: it's the the easy solution to be like, oh, you know what? Here layoffs, let's just let's just cut off a bunch of people right there. We're seeing their employees as just resources like a cost center. And one of the reasons. And I've been saying this for, like over a decade, one of the reasons why I like labor unions

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Danny Gluch: is that they can

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Danny Gluch: change those rules of the game where they say, you know what you can't just go to your easiest solution. You need to earn your paycheck

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Danny Gluch: C-suite people. You need to earn that paycheck a little bit, leverage those Mbas leverage, all that experience and all that money that you get paid to find a solution. That isn't just yeah. Let's just lay off 10% of our our

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Marion: or whatever workforce change the rules make it so that they have to do something a little bit more creative. You know the auto workers union and what they achieved last year absolutely phenomenal. And that's after decades of the degradation of so many labor unions. Honestly. And as we transition towards what like is this a cultural thing? Is there a large impact to the future of work

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Danny Gluch: like, I think this is going to continue until there's like a massive push for

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Marion: like general strike labor unions right? And as a human being.

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Marion: I don't think it's a bad thing. but as a human being I applaud it, and I think that there does need to be more advocacy, and there does need to be a stronger representation for for those who are effectively.

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Marion: you know, unsupported, I mean, there was a massive coverage last year about

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Marion: Starbucks, I think, and it's still happening in the news like they're still talking about it. It's and you've got you've had apple stores unionize in the last few years as well like, that's a retail store like, yeah, big tech. But retail. Yeah, exactly. And and

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Marion: let's face it right.

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Marion: Apple store employees have it much better than most retail employees. Right? And so the fact that they're unionizing says a lot.

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Marion:  I think that. And again, this is not fully my area of expertise, because I've not worked in industries necessarily, or unionization is a big thing. So it's not

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Marion: something I'm really an expert about. But as a human being.

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Marion: I applaud it, and I think the rebirth of a modern unionization

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Marion: sort of system. I think, can only be a good thing. Yeah, it's

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Danny Gluch: there are certain parts of that, that psychological safety of the stability and the

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Danny Gluch: reliability consistency of how employees are treated.

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Danny Gluch: That really is like even more fundamental than like. Can I be a Dissenter and still have a voice and not get repercussions to like? Do I have a job tomorrow, even if I don't say anything right like that, like W. When we're talking about sort of like the the pyramid of needs, like the psychological safety bit is so important. But like

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Danny Gluch: you can't speak up

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Marion: and and get to that part of safety if you don't even know if you're gonna be there next week, and we, we need to work on that first. Yeah, I think that's a really important thing. And I think what also makes

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Cacha Dora: this whole moment in time interesting, Danny, is that moment right? That, like, I'm not sure if I'm going to have a job. I have seen so many tick tocks of people sitting in their cars before they go into work in the morning, and they're like, I don't know if I'm going to have a job and the amount of people who empathize.

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Cacha Dora: who have experienced this or just care about this person they've never met before, who shows up on their Fy. P. Because it's such a relatable feeling to thousands of people. And then you've got people who obviously, virally even have recorded themselves in the process of getting laid off having conversations on. If it is or is not performance related, it's just a failure of the business, but that fear

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Cacha Dora: of am I employed

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Cacha Dora: is something that people are sharing, and

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Marion: I do applaud that because it's working to slowly chip away and eradicate the shame that comes from the process of getting laid off in the first place. But that fear is so. I think that's what they start with. They start with the fear, and they don't even realize that in in sharing it that they actually can kind of help themselves a little bit, at least emotionally, psychologically, mentally, yeah, absolutely. But the fact that that we're having to do that is is awful, and you know something that I just kind of

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Marion: wanna circle back to just come back to talk about unions very quickly.

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Marion: The fact when I listen to myself saying, I think it's a good thing I want to clarify something.

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Marion: The fact that we even have to have them

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Marion: is outrageous.

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Marion: We shouldn't have to have employee advocacy like that. Right? We shouldn't, because we should have employers that have integrity

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Marion: and that are human centric

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Marion: and understand the importance of psychological safety. And so ultimately, again, it's like the elephant right in the org. If psychological safety existed, there would be no elephant. If psychological safety existed, there would be no need for Union shop stewards all the rest of it. Right? So it really is a solution to something which, if it was solved at its core

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Marion: wouldn't even need to be. But that's a really good point, Mary. It is. It is not the solution. It is the the tourniquet

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Danny Gluch: to to the real problem. And the real problem is that that

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Danny Gluch: business owners don't

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Danny Gluch: treat their labor properly. They don't view their labor as essential.

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Marion: Yeah. And it's only it's only gotten worse. Yeah, and not all right. I mean, obviously, sometimes you can be the best employer in the world. But at the end of the day. If the economy takes a turn that you can, you know, work around.

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Danny Gluch: You are going to be in situations. There's no there's no I still would love for people to be more creative. There are stories during the pandemic and during the O. 8 recession of very few companies who were really really creative dealing with extraordinary

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Danny Gluch: problems. And and maybe it was the the economy, or maybe was a shift in technology, right of like, Oh, hey, we used to make flip phones. Oh, no, flip phones don't exist anymore. Right? There's a good way and a bad way to handle that as a business leader.

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Danny Gluch: and too often they just hit the big red lay off button. No, you're you're not wrong. You're not wrong, but I think we're naive to say that all of those solutions, all of those situations, can be avoided. That's not real life, right? No, absolutely not I. Just. I would love, for you know the rapidity of it to not be so rapid, not to be a cultural thing.

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Cacha Dora: you and and it's one of those things right? I mean, like we just going back to the Linkedin aspect. How many times do you open your Linkedin feed? And you it starts with? I didn't wanna have to say this. I didn't wanna have to share. Well, going back to the the accountability of the C-suite.

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Marion: The one thing that I would like to see more of is when you know if there's if you think of things like if there's an an airplane incident right like a crash or a near miss, or something like that right? There's a full investigation. There's an investigation done like, use the plane by the manufacturer.

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Marion: by the airline, by the airport, and by you to put something different right?

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Marion: But there should be a post mortem done to understand the points of failures and the things that should be, you know, that would be learned for the next time and put into practice right? That's a normal is a normal practice

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Marion: in medical and airlines and all sorts of industries. Right. Why, the fuck! Are we not doing it? I've never even heard of that idea, Marian, and it does happen, I mean I to them right? II think the inclusion. I think there should be a regulatory governance that comes in and does like hey, what happened here? We get your guises.

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Marion: what thoughts, post mortem of what happened. Here's our assessment. Well, that happens. If you're a public company and that happens if you're like, you know, connect to the government and things like that right where there's more regulatory standards

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Marion: across the right. No. And I, if you think, if you take it to a different extreme, to like a small private company. Of course it doesn't happen, you know, if you've got a board. Yes, hopefully, you're doing it and hold me accountable. But if you're to

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Marion: bootstrapped no board. No, you know

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Marion: other investors whatever. Then

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Marion: you know you're running your own chip, and ultimately no one's questioning you, so I don't know. I think that that we need to have more things in place to

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Marion: hold accountability better.

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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I think so, too.

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Danny Gluch: I think that would help address some of this layoffs as a culture

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Cacha Dora: well, I think the concept of accountability is you don't almost a root of this entire conversation right because we're calling out the fact that a layoff culture shouldn't be

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Marion: a thing. Yeah. exactly. Meanwhile, I'm gonna go apply for more jobs.

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Marion: If you have a job for Danny. You can email us at at the fearless Pxcom. He's really good, by the way, so you should hire him. I'm a joy to work with. He is. He's a lot of fun.

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Cacha Dora: Two-thirds of this podcast thumbs up Danny

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Danny Gluch: alright. Well, thank you. All for listening. You can email us at that. Email. I said, please be sure to like subscribe, give a follow, give a 5 star review that would really help us show up in all the podcast algorithms.

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Danny Gluch: We'll see you next time. Thank you. Everyone.