The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
The Innovation Paradox: Why Job Security Matters
In this thought-provoking episode of The Elephant in the Org, hosts Danny Gluch, Marion Anderson, and Cacha Dora tackle the innovation paradox: why job security is the key to unlocking your organization's creative potential. Brace yourself for a lively discussion that explores the surprising link between psychological safety, job security, and innovative work behavior (IWB).
As layoffs loom and employees fear for their futures, innovation takes a backseat to self-preservation. Our hosts dive deep into the research and share eye-opening insights on how a culture of fear stifles creativity and risk-taking. But it's not all doom and gloom! They also reveal practical strategies for fostering a safe environment that encourages bold ideas and creative problem-solving, even in the face of organizational challenges.
Whether you're a leader looking to boost innovation or an employee seeking to thrive in uncertain times, this episode is packed with wisdom and wit. You'll learn why transparency, adult-to-adult communication, and a long-term perspective are essential for maintaining an innovative edge. Plus, you'll hear some unforgettable quotes that'll make you laugh, think, and maybe even blush.
Don't miss this essential guide to navigating the innovation paradox in your workplace. Tune in now and discover why job security is the secret sauce your organization needs to innovate, adapt, and thrive in the face of any challenge.
Connect with Us:
- Follow The Fearless PX on Linkedin at The Fearless PX
- Visit our website for more content and updates: https://www.thefearlesspx.com/
- Reach out to Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlessp.com
- You can find all episodes of The Elephant in the Org here.
We encourage you to subscribe and leave a review if you found this episode enlightening!
From April 2024, all new episodes of The Elephant In the Org will be posted bi-weekly.
Music Credits:
Opening and closing theme by The Toros.
Production Credits:
Produced by The Fearless PX, Edited by Marion Anderson.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are exclusively those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations’ official policy or position.
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Danny Gluch: Well welcome back to the elephant in the org brought to you by the Free List people experience. I'm Danny Gluch. I'm joined by my co-hosts. Cacha Dora and Marion Anderson. Hi.
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Danny Gluch: today's elephant in the org is innovation specifically how job security
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Danny Gluch: affects innovation negatively.
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Danny Gluch: which is a weird thing to say. But there's a correlation of like needing to keep your job. And like as as one of my favorite sort of analysts in in football says, the number one job is keeping your job. And if that's your number one job, you are not going to be innovative. And there's a very interesting correlation with psychological safety job security. And if you don't have those things you can't be innovative.
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Danny Gluch: So that's where we're going today. What do you girls think?
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Cacha Dora: I think Kasha should go first, cause she's just been working on something I have. Yes, so II think that you know the concept of innovative work behavior, which is a mouthful, but Iwb also sounds like a TV station. So either way.
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Cacha Dora: I don't have Ps. Or I, Wb, I can't come in, and I was like safety sending you to the special clinic, Danny.
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Cacha Dora: But anyway, you know the the aspects of psychological safety having a direct correlation into innovative work, behavior, or something that
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Cacha Dora: scholars have been studying for, like the last 10 to 15 years, there's so many different papers that have been written about it. And of course everything originally cites Amy Edmondson.
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Cacha Dora: and and the studies that she did within healthcare. But
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Cacha Dora: psychological safety, whether it's coming from your organizational culture, or it's coming directly from the manager, follower relationship or or manager. Direct report relationship.
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Cacha Dora: have a a very strong correlation, and if you feel safe, if an employee or an individual feels safe enough to take risks that create innovation. Right? You have to put yourself out there to say something that's new or that's different.
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Cacha Dora: And I think people a lot of times people get caught up in the the risk taking aspect of psychological safety. But people don't necessarily, when they see risk taking, they think they think of something that might be foolhardy. But a lot of times taking risks is quite literally just coming up with an idea.
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Cacha Dora: Right? How do we do this differently? We hear in business all the time around the need for time, management, and efficiency, and sometimes something that is, innovation in the workplace might be something. I know this will, you know, lean in on one of Danny's interest. Right is like, do we need to have our meetings this way. Do we need to have these meetings at all?
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Danny Gluch: That's an innovative thought process, and you have to feel safe enough to say it. In the first place, they're looking to cut people.
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Cacha Dora: I'm not going to stick my neck out and say anything at all, because I don't want to be the the noisy one. Right? Exactly, and you might be scared, or protecting yourself to literally not call out the things that are like waving in the you in the face that are so noticeable and like we could fix this by. But you don't want that light on you, because
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Cacha Dora: it might upset the exact people who could be responsible for letting you go.
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Marion: Do you know this? This is adjacent to this? But it it reminds me of II sent you guys that link of the employment lawyer on tech talk, and he was going on about how is not your friend? And they're there to protect the company. And la, la, la!
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Marion: And it's kind of
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Marion: similar to that. Because you, when you have that fear that worry that you know something bad's gonna happen.
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Marion: Something bad's happening at work. You're not gonna talk to each other about it right? There's a thumbs up thing again. Go away, zoom. No one asked for it. Zoom's biased is biased. But yeah, like, you know.
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Marion: And and this is the same thing with this situation, right? As you just pointed out, like, you're not going to speak up because you're fearful of their examination. So
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Marion: it fundamentally.
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Marion: these are everything here is just symptomatic of a much, much, much much bigger and deeper issue.
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Marion: and I think that on a foundational level, because there is inherently
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Marion: lack of trust
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Marion: and fear, and all of these things in every organization. I'm sorry, and I'm the biggest proponent of psychological safety. However.
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Marion: I've yet to meet an organization that has 100 psychological safety, because I don't believe is a Utopia that exists. It can work. We? Yeah, we don't trust
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Marion: at times, and we do feel uncomfortable. And we do. You know we we are all those things. So I think it's a
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Marion: a state
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Danny Gluch: that we aspire to, and I definitely think it's a state that we should work towards. But is it realistic that we're gonna have that 100 team? Absolutely, you know? No. But II think that you can get, you know, not even like really closely approaching that Utopia of like perfect psychological safety, and still have innovation like thinking about just just culturally, who you are as a company. And if
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Danny Gluch: if you're the company that just like Oh, we're having problems, or we, we need to maximize profits a little bit. Or you know, we need to look at our redundancies and layoffs, and if if that's your your culture, if that's how you run your business.
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Danny Gluch: do not expect
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Danny Gluch: innovation, do not expect it that that is a
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Danny Gluch: a vibe, if you will. Right. I used to be so against vibes and feelings and energy, but like as I've gotten older, the more I realized that, like that feeling, that existential existence of being in that workplace is not going to have or be able to create innovation, because everyone there knows
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Danny Gluch: at any moment, if this doesn't go well.
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Cacha Dora: I don't have a job. If you've got an entire workforce with one foot out because they need to make sure that they can pay their bills. Then they're, you know, if they're concerned of continual layoffs or recompense right like, if it's an environment where you know, we live in the State of California. Everyone's an at will employee. Which means
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Cacha Dora: there, you know, you could just be like, Okay, bye, you know people that happens, and it, you know. And and to that point, that's why there are employment lawyers. But
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Cacha Dora: you know the if that is the vibe of an environment.
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Cacha Dora: then all people are gonna do is the bare minimum. What's the deliverable? I have to hit?
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Cacha Dora: And can it do it within the hours that I have. There's that's all that's the focus is going to be is going to be on the deliverable. And have I have I ticked it off? Do I have it off my list?
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Cacha Dora: And there's not gonna be the that innovation of, Hey, have you thought about connecting with another department on this situation. Maybe we're missing a perspective. And people are just gonna do what's expected of them. And that's it. Right? It's like, Can you pass the test in school. It's not that you retain it. Just did you pass it?
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Marion: Yeah, I mean the whole premise of quite what thing? Or you know, whatever we're calling it this week is, it's gone through like what 6 names in the last 3 years. But it's the same shit, basically right? You know, people don't feel secure. So they're like, well, why the hell would I come in and and give you my base work? I'm just gonna come in and do the bare minimum. Well, I keep my eye on the door and look for someone who's gonna treat me a little bit better
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Marion: very, at least not have a hatchet over my head right?
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Marion: It's not rocket science. So I just I don't know. I you know I this is is days like this would start to feel a little bit defeatist. Obviously, because it's
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Marion: it's on the surface. It's a relatively SIM simplistic formula.
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Marion: Treat people well, be honest.
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Marion: be transparent.
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Danny Gluch: Treat them like adults. Guess what? They'll feel more secure. They'll be happier ownership of their work, which, yeah, is people taking accountability and responsibility. You're not going to take that ownership of something. If you're literally just trying to do the checkbox, I'm just trying to not get in trouble.
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Danny Gluch: That is the opposite of engagement. Exactly. If you're gonna treat me like a child, guess what I'm gonna act like a fucking child, right? And I'm gonna be if you're and if you treat them like prisoners where they're constantly being monitored and watched. But then tell them to be grateful to be your behavior like I'm gonna try to do what I can get away with and eventually escape.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, when you, when you work in an environment that you should be grateful to be here.
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Cacha Dora: you. You're already, you know. You're already in a position where you're being treated like a child right? But there are plenty of leaders you think like that. So I have a question for the both of you on this. So in that connection of psychological safety and that innovative work, behavior and being treated like adults versus children.
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Cacha Dora: We just talked about vibes right and like how that vibe is very clearly present.
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Cacha Dora: But what about when the vibe of the org is like that. But you have these small little pods of teams that actually do it. Well.
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Danny Gluch: well, and II think that that's where I don't know. Maybe I have, but like one of the articles that that Marian you sent
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Cacha Dora: from a couple of different scholars talks about the difference between work culture and the team right? So if the work culture, which means that people are studying this, and it's not a phenomena
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Cacha Dora: where the and I haven't. We haven't read. I haven't gotten a chance to read the article, but like, if they're comparing the 2, that means that you could be experiencing different things on both sides. Right? I mean, it's cultures and subcultures, right and and every
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Marion: situation, whether it be an organization, a country, a club, whatever it might be. You have overarching culture. And then you have various subcultures. Right? So it's definitely that. And I think.
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Marion: in my own experience.
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Marion: it's always been important for me as a leader to try and create that environment, because I know that
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Marion: in my circle of influence I might not be able to influence everyone else. But if I in my th, the area of my domain that I'm responsible for. And I can control that. And I can influence that. And that's what I'm gonna do right.
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Marion: and I guess hopefully inspire others outside of my circle of influence, who look in and see how I approach things and the outputs I get maybe inspires them to do something different, too. But the the not the knowledge and comfortability of being able to do that has came from years of
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Marion: seeing it done and experiencing it
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Marion: badly.
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Marion: And it's again. It goes back to that thing. If we learn more
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Marion: by seeing how other people
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Marion: screw it up actually, then, seeing how other people do it? Well, right?
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Marion: So I think that those sub, those subcultures will always exist in every every walk of life, every area. But
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Marion: I think
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Marion: what is disappointing is that maybe. And again, I can only talk from previous experience. Other leaders auto can see that subculture in place and working well, but because
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Marion: they possibly don't see that in other pockets of the business, or maybe in themselves find that very difficult to cultivate.
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Marion: They almost kind of devalue it and ignore it, you know. And and you know.
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Marion: yeah. And well, you know, a a. And again, that just speaks to the overarching culture, to the organization. So I don't know. Like what is culture? Well, ultimately, culture is is a group of people bringing things to the table. And it
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Marion: creates this experience, right, this feel, this this sense that it's all of those things it's it's it's hard to define. But
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Danny Gluch: it's not hard to.
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Marion: It's been very well defined. Actually, let me let me clarify that statement. There are multiple definitions of culture clarified straight up. One version statement hard to make it tangible, right? Because it is
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Marion: a lot of it's emotion based. It's feeling based. It's it's it's the unspoken right.
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Marion: And every business has their written culture and their lived culture, and they are very rarely the same thing. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So. I don't know. Like again, maybe I'm I think we're all just saying about Gdt. We don't need to. But
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Marion: it's a it's definitely the reality is is that Utopia does not exist.
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Marion: but that's okay, because
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Marion: I'll take, you know, progress over perfection any day. Right? And
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Marion: I see
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Marion: people in our industry, especially all the change makers that are really stepping up in the people space right now, so refreshing to know that there's more people like us right there, anti-establishment that think most of the traditional ways of doing things, that absolute crap, that that are a force for change, that are that do see. You know the potential in in radically shaking things up a bit
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Marion: and calling out all the issues with these layoffs. Right? They're not letting they're not just being quiet about this. Lay off culture
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Cacha Dora: that that's happening. They're calling out the problems with it. And late, that whole moment is exactly what's affecting
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Marion: innovative work behavior from happening. It is exactly.
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Marion: I don't know, like it is a concer. I do think that it is a concern. I think it'd be a fascinating, fascinating, fascinating area of research to look at right now as in all of the
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Marion: kind of
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Marion: phenomenons that we've gone through in the last 5 years, from the pandemic to the the over, hiring to the lay off situation to all of that. What is the what is the long tail impact
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Marion: on innovation?
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Marion: And therefore, yeah, and therefore, what is the impact
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Marion: on not just the development of mankind, but also the financial impact. This societal impact, you know, all of that is that in itself is is huge and thinking about it. I mean, it's that long view that businesses are just.
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Danny Gluch: you know, at least over the last 50 years, really struggling to to employ the long view. And it's.
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Danny Gluch: you know, reading stories about how people handle different crisis was whether it was the the, you know 9, 11, or the housing crisis in O 8, or the pandemic right? Or or even just big shifts in technology of like.
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Danny Gluch: Oh, shit. What we've made is no longer going to be a viable product, because now people can carry their cameras and movies and everything in their pocket, and no longer is, you know, the thing that that we built our our business on is is no longer gonna exist. How people handle, how organizations handle things like that
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Danny Gluch: is so telling
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Danny Gluch: right whether they have the short view or the long view. And it's it's always the ones with the short view who who seem less
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Danny Gluch: innovative, who who lack a a flexibility. They're they're more rigid. And it's all of these things. It's rigidity. It's shortsightedness that creates this this culture, this vibe of.
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Danny Gluch: I can't take that risk. I can't take my, I can't think differently. And it's the the the longer view companies who are like, Oh.
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Danny Gluch: you know what everyone we're struggling. We're we're now bringing everyone in right. This also comes from like, is this this the top down sort of authoritarian leadership? Or is it a collective leadership?
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Danny Gluch: You had stories of of leaders saying, Hey, everyone.
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Danny Gluch: we're going to be transparent. This is where we are right now. Whether there was a you know, the the pandemic, or where there was an industry shift.
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Danny Gluch: We're not doing well. We need to figure out how to save this much money, and we didn't go do this off in a closed room and an off site somewhere. And now we're telling you what we're doing. It's we need our entire collective intelligence to try to solve this problem. And that brings everyone together. All of sudden. Everyone is now thinking creatively. Everyone is trying to creatively solve this problem
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Marion: because they feel welcomed and safe, to be able to be included enough, right and valued to to throw in the good ideas and the bad ideas, and have them all be seen as equal. Exactly. And what's so?
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Marion: What in your opinion, then? Because I haven't. I know exactly what my ideas are. What are in your opinion, are there reasons why leadership.
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Marion: Don't do that. Why do you think leaders are very intent on shrouding it in mystery and not sharing this information and thinking that they have the
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Cacha Dora: the intelligence, and the smartest enough to solve it by themselves. Why do you think that is fear, insecurity, ego.
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Cacha Dora: lack of education, potentially lack of? Yeah. Like, you know, trust or like ego trust. And then the lack of experience to lack of experience as well. Right? Yeah. I mean, the only reason you're gonna hold things behind an iron curtain is because either you is at the end of the day you have something to hide or you're trying to protect yourself
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Danny Gluch: right? Right? Which like, then leans into that fear or the you know what I mean like it leans into those things, but that
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Marion: that's my hot. Take on it 100. I completely agree. And
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Marion: you know, I mean, they've done a lot of studies right about the need for transparency in organizations. So because again, you treat people like adults. Adults want you to have an open, honest, transparent conversation. They can. They can tell when you're not.
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Marion: Tell them everything exactly. I mean, you only have to look at the work that our friends at open org are doing. And you know you can see the impacts that they're making in in our industry, just in terms of
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Marion: helping people. Leaders see things in a completely different way, and and take that organizations in a much more transparent route. Now to do that, obviously, you have to have complete organizational buy-in. Certainly c-suite buy in, and that is a
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Marion: that's a tricky one.
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Danny Gluch: But yeah, I mean, think of the the story from Jim Bentley. If you haven't listened to the the wild learning episode, everyone go listen to that.
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Danny Gluch: And he comes in as as a new CEO. He didn't even have an established rapport, and he says, Hey, we, we need to make these change. We want to go from good to great.
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Danny Gluch: And how are we gonna do that? Well, we need everyone together working on this. We want everyone
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Danny Gluch: included. Right? This is. This is not just. I'm gonna set the vision, and, you know, set the projections. And now tell you all the work to meet these things. It was we. We all need to do this together. Everyone needs to be included right? Like the that's the different
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Danny Gluch: vibe, right is, if I'm being included in the important decisions at work. I'm immediately being asked to be innovative and to solve problems creatively
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Danny Gluch: as opposed to. I'm being told to do something, or I may no longer have a job. That's the vibe difference. Ask yourself. what do my employees experience? Do they experience? I need to do these. Otherwise I might not have a job, or
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Danny Gluch: I'm being invited
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Danny Gluch: to creatively solve problems and move this company forward. Yeah, those are very different things.
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Marion: Yeah. yeah, it's
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Marion: it's definitely a very complex
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Marion: situation, and
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Marion: there's so many roots and
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Marion: things that just weave their way and not. And and it's complicated and cause so much is is out of company's control. Sometimes it is, it is. And you know, we we're good over simplifying things. We do that because we we want to try and show people that
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Marion: sometimes it isn't as complex as people make it out to be. And often it isn't. But you know.
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Marion: it's really just that thing of you know. What is it they say about
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Marion: cutting an elephant or eating an elephant? You'd have to do it like one elephant at the org is that we do not eat elephants. You know what I mean, right? That whole thing of it's like, how about, you know? Like we, let's take a different approach. You eat a pie one slice at a time, you don't eat the whole pie
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Marion: inconceivable.
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Marion: We often just run away from it, instead of just saying, Let's just take one little bit time and make one change today and one change tomorrow and one change the next day. And before you know it, we've built a momentum right?
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Danny Gluch: But like, that's what that's why the C-suite supposed to be getting the big paychecks to be able to to handle that right.
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Danny Gluch: And and just because it's big and overwhelming doesn't mean it's like, well, this is hard. Everyone come back to office to the office. That's how we're gonna solve it. Or this is hard. We're just gonna lay off 15% of our workforce that'll solve it right? Like.
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Danny Gluch: be creative. Include other people, don't don't do this like from up on high, and
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Danny Gluch: and there will be a tangible difference, maybe not for you, but for the the organizational culture and for the people who work there. And like, that's that's my big thing is.
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Cacha Dora: yeah, if you're working in in a fearful environment.
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Marion: you're not going to be able to have the brain space to be innovative
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Danny Gluch: include other people. Exactly.
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Danny Gluch: Well, thank you all for listening. Thank you, Kasha and Marian, for you know, tackling this and helping people see hopefully some tangible things that that organizations can really do to affect this. If you have any thoughts or have a suggestion for an episode, please email us at Elephant, at the fearless Pxcom.
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Danny Gluch: Be sure to like and subscribe. Leave a 5 star review. We'll see you next time.
