The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
The Swinging Pendulum: Moving Beyond Polarities in Organizational Culture with Jim D'Angelo.
In this insightful episode of the Elephant in the Org Podcast, Jim D'Angelo, Founder of Heartwired, joins hosts Marion Anderson, Danny Gluch, and Cacha Dora to explore the intricate balance between inclusion and exclusion in the workplace. The discussion centers around "Compassionate Excellence," which emphasizes caring for people while maintaining high-performance standards.
Jim illuminates the dangers of poorly executed inclusion practices, which can result in organizational chaos and a lack of accountability. He emphasizes the crucial role of consistent leadership and encourages managers to engage in uncomfortable conversations to promote growth and trust among employees.
The conversation also delves into the influence of ego and self-perception on receiving feedback and how leaders can address these challenges using techniques such as nonviolent communication. Jim introduces the notion of inviting employees to actively opt-in to the organization's culture rather than presuming their inclusion.
Throughout the episode, the group analyzes the "swinging pendulum" of organizational culture, where companies frequently oscillate between extremes like centralization and decentralization. Jim proposes moving beyond these polarities and adopting a contextual approach that harnesses the strengths of both ends of the spectrum.
Listeners will discover valuable insights on fostering a culture of psychological safety, vulnerability, and leadership that acknowledges the complexities of inclusion and exclusion. The discussion also highlights the significance of finding the right fit for employees within an organization, using the metaphor of "the right seat on the bus."
Link to show notes.
You can contact Jim here.
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- Reach out to Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlessp.com
- You can find all episodes of The Elephant in the Org here.
We encourage you to subscribe and leave a review if you found this episode enlightening!
From April 2024, all new episodes of The Elephant In the Org will be posted bi-weekly.
Music Credits:
Opening and closing theme by The Toros.
Production Credits:
Produced by The Fearless PX, Edited by Marion Anderson.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are exclusively those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations’ official policy or position.
Episode 28 Transcript
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Danny Gluch: welcome back to the elephant in the org. Everyone
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Danny Gluch: brought to you by the fearless people experience. I'm Danny Glutch, and I'm joined by my co-hosts. As always, Cacha Dora
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Cacha Dora: Hello.
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Danny Gluch: And Marion Anderson.
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Marion: Very croaky Marion Anderson. But Hello!
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Cacha Dora: You as well.
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Danny Gluch: Still Scottish. So it's okay. Today, today we have a very special guest, Jim Deangelo, from Hartwired welcome. Jim, tell us a little bit about yourself.
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Jim D'Angelo: Hey? Good morning. Thanks for having me on my name is Jim, and I'm the founder of Hardwired, and we're really excited to be here and talk through today's topic. But live up here in Portland, where can't make up its mind if it wants to be wintertime or summertime. It's like we're kind of in the in between. Again.
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Marion: That sounds like Scotland.
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Cacha Dora: Little bit like in Southern California. The last couple of months.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, really.
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Jim D'Angelo: Good.
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Danny Gluch: Well, we brought Jim on, because today's elephant in the org is inclusion which everyone loves, and it's so great, but also exclusion. And what role exclusion might have in organizations. And when when we were talking about Jim and bringing this up, it was just a a such a great conversation we had to bring it to all of our listeners.
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Danny Gluch: and I think where we wanted to start was talking about inclusion when people first hear it. It's it's an easy to understand concept. And it's like, Yes, I want that in my organization.
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Danny Gluch: But but if there's some immaturity or a lack of depth of understanding it can go kind of poorly. So, Jim, tell us a little bit about these, like the failings of an immature conception of an application of inclusion in organizations cause we don't.
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Jim D'Angelo: Occurred.
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Danny Gluch: Very much.
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Jim D'Angelo: No, we don't. And I think it's something that we need to. I I love that. You talk about the mature and immature perspective. There's a lot of nuance in this topic that I think we is is so easy to paper over, because inclusion sounds really good. And so at a base level. You could just say, Yeah, I want that.
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Jim D'Angelo: And I think most of us do want inclusion. In our organizations. It's been shown to have a huge impact on the bottom line. It has a huge impact on the people. So it's good for business. It's good for people. Why not have it?
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Jim D'Angelo: But when it comes out, as
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Jim D'Angelo: everybody is included, then you start watering down your organization, start watering down. What is the level of excellence? Look like. And how do you hold people to that? And when you don't have a clear line and everybody's welcome, then what winds up happening is nobody is welcome.
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Jim D'Angelo: and it becomes very chaotic, and a lot of the things that
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Jim D'Angelo: the benefits that you would get from inclusion can also be weaponized inside of your organization.
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Jim D'Angelo: where
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Jim D'Angelo: you try to hold somebody to a a particular level of our standard. And
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Jim D'Angelo: well.
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Jim D'Angelo: you I I'm being blocked because of all of this, these other reasons that have nothing to do with the thing that you're actually trying to talk about. And if you kind of
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Jim D'Angelo: hit your wagon to that inclusion perspective without the nuance. You're setting yourself up for really challenging conversations in the future.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, that
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Danny Gluch: that the the 2 things that really hit me, the chaotic
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Danny Gluch: and just if everything's included, then there, there is no accountability
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Danny Gluch: like there, there has to be some level of
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Danny Gluch: of standard to where, if it's not met.
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Danny Gluch: it's not included.
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Jim D'Angelo: Right, right.
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Danny Gluch: But yeah.
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Danny Gluch: like, I get tingles down my spine just saying that like, that's that's it's not what we hear. That's not like that that base understanding when we just read the front flap of of a book about organizational development or.
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Jim D'Angelo: Sure, sure.
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Marion: Yeah, I I
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Marion: I'm having flashbacks to earlier conversation. Another episode where we talked about
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Marion: psychological safety and the term being used incorrectly and misunderstood, and the damage that can come from that
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Marion: is, we've seen it before, with other
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Marion: what began as academic terms, and obviously became mainstream and with all of the
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Marion: bluster, and
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Marion: I I hate to see the word controversy, but you know certain parts of society having real issue with the concept of Dei, which is bonkers.
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Marion: it just feels like with that, and then trying to help people understand inclusion versus exclusion where it's healthy where it's not da da. Da.
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Marion: This could be another
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Marion: incendiary device going into something that we've worked so hard to try and bring to the table, and we're still not nailing it and then
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Marion: it could blow up in our faces. I mean.
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Marion: I gotta sound all very doomsday today, but I don't mean to, but it's just, you know, we're in such a precarious situation at the moment with a lot of these concepts.
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Marion: How do we navigate that.
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Cacha Dora: Well, I think, too, when we're thinking about that inclusion exclusion like sometimes it's it's an easy.
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Cacha Dora: easy line. And sometimes it's the aspect of being creative, right? So like not everyone's going to be in a board meeting
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Cacha Dora: that's already exclusionary. When you think about it, you know what I mean, but it's I think the it's the word exclusionary that people the hackles go up. They're like, what do you mean? I'm I'm I'm excluded. And then you're like. Oh, well, that's like I wouldn't even want to be in that room. No, thanks, you know what I mean. But then you also have different things like, if you're looking at it through the Dei lens like you were talking about Maryland, let's think about like ergs right? Those
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Cacha Dora: combined create inclusion.
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Cacha Dora: But individually, if you were to only look at one ERG. It would be exclusionary.
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Marion: That's true.
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Cacha Dora: So, but like it. So I think it is a very you know, like Jim like mentioned right? It's so nuanced, and it kind of really depends on what lens you look at it. If it is in the
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Cacha Dora: I'm interpreting this positively, or I'm interpreting it negatively.
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Jim D'Angelo: Right, and often has to do. With which side of that am I on, and is it? Is it hitting my ego.
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Jim D'Angelo: and is it something that
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Jim D'Angelo: I truly don't belong in this space, because I haven't met some level of excellence, or I'm being excluded because you don't like me, and I think the exclusion tends to be. We tell ourselves a story that it's because they don't like me, because these other things that aren't valid reasons to be excluded.
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Jim D'Angelo: you know our Hr policies all have exclusionary behaviors in them. If I can't just go into an organization and
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Jim D'Angelo: usually start flipping tables, and you know, threatening people.
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Jim D'Angelo: We don't want that behavior. We've defined that as poor.
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Marion: Unless you're a real housewife, then it's totally.
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Jim D'Angelo: Example, 2 shades.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Jim D'Angelo: But actually, I think that's a great point, because
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Jim D'Angelo: it's all contextual. And I think another challenge of the space is that we we
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Jim D'Angelo: so easily can look at another context and judge. It is good or bad, based on where we are not, on the context of what's going on in that space and all the nuance that we don't understand as an outsider. So I I've spent time in the military, and there's a behavior in there that would not be tolerated
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Jim D'Angelo: outside of there. But if
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Jim D'Angelo: and I'm not condoning anything in this space,
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Jim D'Angelo: but from an outsider's perspective, just like you, why would you do that? Why, why would you rib each other so hard? Why would you act like that?
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Jim D'Angelo: But on the inside that was a way of being told you're you're included. You're in the end group. If you weren't being ribbed, if you weren't being joked around with, then something was probably wrong, and you weren't quite in the on the team yet.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, that's such a. And I'm glad you brought up that exact example, because that is that is something that you know you. You can see posted online, and there will be even like news articles about it. This, this goes to a lot of just very like
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Danny Gluch: masculine centric organizations, football teams and things. You you can see a lot of behaviors that are just like oh, my goodness! I can't believe.
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Danny Gluch: They're doing that. These are all Hr violations. How could those be inclusive? And and I I really am glad you brought up the context because,
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Danny Gluch: we can do the same thing when it's a very Western you know, we're talking about Uk, American, we're we're very good at judging other cultures based on our very specific contextual practices, rituals, things like that.
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Cacha Dora: Brian.
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Danny Gluch: I I I totally agree with you that we we
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Danny Gluch: we need to take a pause before we judge. It's not that we can't judge and be like. Wow! The way they're cutting off those people's feet that can't be good.
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Jim D'Angelo: Great Day.
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Danny Gluch: At some level we can
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Danny Gluch: But but also we need to understand like, Oh, that's them trying to say like, I,
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Danny Gluch: I believe you're enough in my group
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Danny Gluch: that I can even exaggerate your flaws, make fun of you a little bit.
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Danny Gluch: because I'm still gonna be right there behind you, and you can trust me at the end of the day. There's something in the military that that does that. And I think a lot of cultures do that of
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Danny Gluch: interesting behaviors, to make people feel included.
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Jim D'Angelo: I think the.
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Marion: Particularly where it's very high risk.
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Marion: Scenarios like the military, like the police, like firefighters like, you know, paramedics and nurses, and whatever right where? Where? What do they call it? Gallows humor? I guess not. They're dying, but you know.
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Cacha Dora: Was, gonna say, dark humor, yeah.
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Marion: Yeah, yeah, because it's actually the only kind of way to get through it. Or you would just get pulled under. A a, you know, and and absolutely not competing. Hr. To that and the slightest cause, you know we're not saving lives at the end of the day, but you know we do find ourselves in some very dark situations. I know I have, particularly when I worked in the Middle East. I dealt with some very, very difficult Hr situations that we're life for death actually.
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Marion: And you have to find a way to get through that. And so sometimes it is that
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Marion: darker humor. And again, context, right? Yeah.
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Marion: I'm so glad.
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Cacha Dora: Under, and there's an underton of compassion to your fellow in like per peer right through that like. But to the outsider it might not look like you're actually like including them and caring about them. But it actually is really compassionate. You just then. It's not packaged that way.
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Jim D'Angelo: Right, right.
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Danny Gluch: I'm so glad you brought up the medical field, Marian, because that is it. It's such a an example that gets used in all of the psychological safety books and the real high performers. All have great, high psychological safety.
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Danny Gluch: One thing that that they all seem to have is that kind of dark humor to help them cope with the realities of the stressors they deal with in their day to day job, and, like the the military, obviously has to do that. I I don't in my work, and I don't think it would be appropriate to have the kind of humor and connection that the military and the the medical field have, because it's a different context. And I think that's what you're trying to say, Jim, right.
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Jim D'Angelo: Right and a and there's a common theme through all this as well, and that is, it's easy to sit on the outside and judge
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Jim D'Angelo: that
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Jim D'Angelo: kind of the that perspective without actually feeling the emotional toll of that
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Jim D'Angelo: context. So I can sit on the outside and I can. I can be an armchair judge on.
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Jim D'Angelo: Should the military act like this should doctors act like that
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Jim D'Angelo: until you get in, you actually feel the emotional aspect of it, and I think that that is very similar to to tie it back to organizations today.
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Jim D'Angelo: We don't
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Jim D'Angelo: spend a lot of time helping say, our new managers understand that? You can read radical candor. That's amazing. But if all you did was read the title that's not enough. And then also, until you actually get in and sit down with an employing and have your first round of.
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Jim D'Angelo: I really like you as a human being, but I have to give you this difficult feedback, and that not that builds up in your chest. And it's
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Jim D'Angelo: first time you're like, Oh, you're you're you're such a lovely person. You know, Danny, I love your hair. Those glasses are amazing. You did a really terrible job on this thing. But that microphone. It's like I. I love the color I love, how it's changing.
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Marion: That that looks like all.
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Cacha Dora: Oh, I've noticed. Oh, sandwich! Yeah.
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Marion: I was like. That's the that's the good old shit sandwich.
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Cacha Dora: Sandwich.
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Danny Gluch: I think Jim is, is so right in calling out that that is such the experience of those those first time you're having those conversations.
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Marion: Hmm, yeah.
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Danny Gluch: And and.
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Cacha Dora: Cause you're doing it as a set.
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Danny Gluch: Play there. Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: True, right.
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Danny Gluch: Felt great about myself.
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Danny Gluch: I'm gonna ignore that middle part
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Jim D'Angelo: Wasn't no part. Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Carbs are always the best part, anyway.
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Jim D'Angelo: They are.
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Danny Gluch: And I I think it's actually a really great time to to pivot towards right. We have this idea of radical candor where we're just like I, you know, I'm gonna tell it like it is. And this is just the hard line truth.
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Danny Gluch: And on the other side, the like.
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Danny Gluch: I can't say anything bad, because everyone needs to feel happy and positive all of the time, no matter what right? Optimism is a choice, and it must be
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Danny Gluch: and there's there's.
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Danny Gluch: I think,
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Danny Gluch: a lot of people
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Danny Gluch: want to say. Oh, it's right in the middle that you need to be. And and, Jim, this is this is where you where you.
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Jim D'Angelo: We.
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Danny Gluch: Really pushed us and.
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Jim D'Angelo: Yes.
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Danny Gluch: So tell us what. It's not just the middle ground between radical candor, honesty.
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Jim D'Angelo: Right.
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Danny Gluch: And inclusive, positive, happy, butterfly, rainbow time.
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Jim D'Angelo: So I I like to use the example of
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Jim D'Angelo: looking at organizations that focus solely on taking care of people and organizations that focus solely on performance.
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Jim D'Angelo: And
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Jim D'Angelo: we we often get stuck in these polarities, which is a lot of work that hardware does with organizations to understand our polarities. And this is one that comes up a lot. And so
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Jim D'Angelo: as as we've explored this concept, one of the things that I found really challenging was.
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Jim D'Angelo: I worked for the we talked about splitting the middle, as you said, and splitting the difference, and and finding that common ground. But what that often looks like is the worst of both worlds. And
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Jim D'Angelo: when I when I talk to folks about that, that kind of linear perspective, I I mentioned, if we're looking for the common ground. I worked for the dod, which often in many of the spots kared neither for performance nor people. So where would you put that is that in the middle. Is that what we're we're striving for?
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Jim D'Angelo: And no, I I don't think that's what we're striving for. And
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Jim D'Angelo: so how do we? How do we model that and what that led to was? This concept of compassion, excellence that we help organizations try to understand.
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Jim D'Angelo: And that is, let let's tease this apart. Let's look at a little bit more nuance perspective and understand that caring about people is its own spectrum and caring about performance is its own spectrum. And so if we put those 2 things together we can create a matrix, a, a 2 by 2 matrix where
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Jim D'Angelo: it's funny looking at, you know, talking about psychological safety.
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Jim D'Angelo: looking at like Project Artemis from Google, the study on high performing teams.
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Jim D'Angelo: There's a lot of research that's showing
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Jim D'Angelo: high performing teams are not solely based on caring about people. And I think we we get stuck in this world. That psychological safety is just that human side of it, but it also they. They have high standards of performance.
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Jim D'Angelo: and it's very clear what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. What do we expect of one another? How do we hold one another? Accountable? And so that accountability piece does exist?
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Jim D'Angelo: And but when we talk about being hold out people. Accountability tends to fall off because it's a really hard thing to
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Jim D'Angelo: how do we do that when we just said that we care only about the people, and we don't care necessarily about the performance.
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Jim D'Angelo: I mean I. And so in that upper sorry in in that upper right quadrant where you have high performance, and you have high care of people. That's that's the term compassionate excellence. And and the reason for that is so that we can like coming up with that phrase. The the English language is terrible at describing things. We have a bunch of generic words.
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Jim D'Angelo: and if we talk about trying to find the balance between people and performance. Then you start using those terms, people and performance and I'm anchored on one side. You might be anchored on another. And we can't like common ground now is going to be finding the worst of both worlds. It's gonna be finding that. Well, we're in the middle. Okay? Well, so we care neither about people nor performance.
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Jim D'Angelo: And so it's a new term that I help organizations use
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Jim D'Angelo: so that they stop talking about that spectrum and instead, talk about well, what does that look like here in our context?
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, it's it's like taking
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Danny Gluch: the really necessary part necessary part of both of those concepts and saying, Well, let's apply both of those necessary parts.
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Jim D'Angelo: In right.
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Danny Gluch: As opposed to. Let's let's downplay or soft into where it it doesn't have any impact at all. And that's what creates the chaos. Right. That's the first thing you talked about in your intro was there becomes a chaos and a lack of an ability to hold anyone accountable to anything because you've lost. You've lost those anchors of.
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Jim D'Angelo: Thailand.
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Danny Gluch: And compassion, and and I love
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Danny Gluch: just doubling in and saying like these are what we're striving for.
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Jim D'Angelo: And I do want to point out, too. It happens on the other extreme as well. Right? So we're talking about inclusion and everybody's included. But if we talk about all we care about is performance, we don't really care about people that creates a cutthroat environment where you you have. You know the canonical story of the CEO who's really frustrated their sales teams not working together. I keep telling them that they need to work together, but the environment is not actually supporting that. Because if they're
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Jim D'Angelo: you know or don't meet their numbers, are they afraid that they're gonna get fired.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Jim D'Angelo: If I so, then, if I help somebody else and improve their numbers, then that's necessarily working against my own interest.
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Jim D'Angelo: And so we get that cut throat environment, which is also very similar. It's just
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Jim D'Angelo: it's the same exact.
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Danny Gluch: The same kind of chaos.
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Jim D'Angelo: Chaos just on the other side of the spectrum, and both feel awful.
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Danny Gluch: Now.
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Cacha Dora: What I find so lovely about the the concept of the
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Cacha Dora: compassion. Excellence is that you're no longer dealing with a swinging pendulum.
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Jim D'Angelo: Hmm,
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Cacha Dora: Right like you, you can find a place of
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Cacha Dora: noncomplacency.
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Jim D'Angelo: Right.
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Cacha Dora: By not having to be super left or super, right.
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Jim D'Angelo: Right? Right, exactly. And and that's all. This was born out of the the concept of polarities and the book navigating polarities is absolutely amazing. I I highly recommend it. And you hit the nail on the head. There we we see often organizations swing between. We're gonna be
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Jim D'Angelo: totally decentralized in our communication because frontline managers need to be able to make decisions and we need to be nimble and move
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Jim D'Angelo: and then the business suddenly can't make decisions and like pivot when it's critical until they swing back to the well. No, now we are gonna become centralized because we need to be able to sear this ship and then time moves on and that frontline managers can't make decisions. We're playing this game telephone, and everything is getting lost in translation. And so we swing back to that, we're gonna decentralize everything. And like that swinging pendulum just
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Jim D'Angelo: is so exhausting. And it's not. It's because we're trying to
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Jim D'Angelo: solve
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Jim D'Angelo: the wrong problem.
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Jim D'Angelo: Are we centralized or decentralized? Is is not the the right question. But what do we need in this moment to be able to move forward? What is our context, and how do we get the best of both worlds? Where can we apply decentralized? Where can we apply centralized? What are the strengths of both. And let's let's pick and choose from that.
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Jim D'Angelo: How to get to a better place.
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Marion: Yeah, I'm a huge proponent of that trade, your own path. Stop looking at what everyone else is doing and do what's right. And that's
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Marion: that. That's a
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Marion: that's tough.
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Jim D'Angelo: It's.
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Marion: Cause a lot of the time. You don't know the answer. And people are looking to you for the answer. But that's where that ability to be vulnerable is important to say, look.
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Jim D'Angelo: Absolutely.
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Marion: Using the the carbon copy out of every
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Marion: business book that's not right for us don't know what is. So let's solve it together right and again, fundamental of change management, getting coalition and change agents and all of that. So I, yeah, I, there needs to be more of that. And organizations. And and that comes from just courage, basically.
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Jim D'Angelo: Yeah, exactly
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Jim D'Angelo: hit the nail on the head. And I I like the definition of courage is not the not acting in the absence of fear, but face of it.
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Jim D'Angelo: it is scary, and
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Jim D'Angelo: and having something like compassionate excellence to kind of have common language. Say, Hey, I'm I'm trying to exercise this. I might not do it right. But we got. We have to practice this we have. This is something that we want to ingrain in our organization gives kind of more tools and scaffolding for that courage to exist makes it easier to exist. Doesn't mean that the fear is gone, and I think that is one of the challenges with
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Jim D'Angelo: this inclusion. Exclusion. Conversation is the fear that I'm going to exclude the wrong person.
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Marion: Yeah, yeah, we we talk a lot, fearless about the 4 C's, and they can solve any problem in the world whatever. The problem is right. And and actually, when you think about it, it does. It's like, you know, common sense being the first one. It's just like.
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Jim D'Angelo: Right.
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Marion: Common sense. The ability to think on our own. You know, compassion, courage, and communication right? So those.
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Jim D'Angelo: Bottom.
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Marion: Together. That's it. Those things together.
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Marion: you know, can solve any issue. And no, not one of those elements can live without the others. They're completely symbiotic. So
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Marion: yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Wanted to circle back and talk and ask Jim about this idea of exclusion.
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Danny Gluch: creating trust right? Because so much of of what you were just talking about with
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Danny Gluch: the you know, the compassion, and this this care and the the navigating, the fear. But like we can't take away the fear like these things are important. They're they're.
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Jim D'Angelo: Going to.
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Danny Gluch: Be some sense of fear. But it's it's kind of our job to to lower it. So it's it's okay to do certain things. But we're gonna still hold you to a standard of excellence.
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Marion: Right.
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Danny Gluch: How does this kind of behavior that that is actually holding people up to a standard of excellence while still really caring about them?
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Danny Gluch: How does trust? How do you get to a place to where you trust that is really happening as as like the person and being managed.
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Jim D'Angelo: Right.
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Danny Gluch: Not just getting grilled all the time, like, what? How does the role, or what role does trust play in there? How do you build it?
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Jim D'Angelo: Trust is huge. You can't have this without trust and trust is built
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Jim D'Angelo: one it's a top down thing.
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Jim D'Angelo: and somebody in a management leadership role which I consider those separate concepts.
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Jim D'Angelo: you can't demand trust from other people. You have to build it. And so.
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Jim D'Angelo: understanding that one of the key elements of that is consistency.
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Jim D'Angelo: Am I consistently showing up and acting in the way that I said I was going to act?
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Jim D'Angelo: That is going to build trust, even when you're acting in a way that might not be favorable to
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Jim D'Angelo: the employee.
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Jim D'Angelo: So, for example.
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Jim D'Angelo: I've I've had to work in an organization where the company pivoted very, very hard, and had to have some very hard conversations with employees that have been around for 15 years with this company, but they couldn't let go of what it used to be.
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Jim D'Angelo: The the past version of it, which was always glorious. And you know there were rose colored glasses. And sure, I could imagine that being a great time. But that's not where we are today. And
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Jim D'Angelo: you in that situation we have a choice to
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Jim D'Angelo: really highlight. What? What is the reality of what's going on and help the person make a decision?
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Jim D'Angelo: It's not me saying that you are bad
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Jim D'Angelo: it's hey? This is the situation as I see it. I want your perspective as well. But this is the direction that the organization is heading.
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Jim D'Angelo: and
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Jim D'Angelo: if you don't like that, that's okay.
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Jim D'Angelo: So I'm not making a judgment call on you.
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Jim D'Angelo: But if we're moving in this direction and you opt into that, here's what's going to be expected.
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Jim D'Angelo: Here are a set of skills that I don't see you demonstrating, and we need it. And here's how you can add to this and make it about a growth mindset. Right? Not.
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Jim D'Angelo: Oh, you need to act like this, or else.
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Marion: Button.
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Jim D'Angelo: If you want to come along for this ride.
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Jim D'Angelo: this is what we expect, and it's not just you. This is, we're doing this together, and so
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Jim D'Angelo: building this up as a team and then acting consistently through that is, is critical
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Jim D'Angelo: to the point where,
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Jim D'Angelo: I have had tough conversations with folks and terminated employment relationships. And had those people reach out to me sometime later and ask to be a mentor.
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Jim D'Angelo: It doesn't have to be terrible. So the compassionate part is to recognize
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Jim D'Angelo: I don't have all the context about you as a human being. And so, if I can withhold that kind of judgment, and instead, talk about what is and my expectations and my, I'm a flawed human being as well.
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Jim D'Angelo: But also, if I'm in a position to be responsible. Then my flaw is.
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Jim D'Angelo: you know it.
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Jim D'Angelo: They're they're gonna be in my face for sure. But I I'm making this decision. We need to move forward unless you've got a compelling reason. And again, that that's a trust builder, too. If somebody brings up a a point that you hadn't thought about
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Jim D'Angelo: to take the time and say, Oh, let me let me consider that and fold it in into my thinking
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Jim D'Angelo: and demonstrate that I'm listening. I I'm actually improving things, and I kind of going off on on a little bit of maybe a tangent away from where we'd started. But something that you had had talked about the the trust building with the team. I like. I like looking at the team as a whole, not just the individual. I think it's really easy to get lost at that
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Jim D'Angelo: compassionate excellence. Asks us, if if we're
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Jim D'Angelo: if you're on a team
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Jim D'Angelo: and
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Jim D'Angelo: say a team of 5, and everybody's working really hard except that one person
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Jim D'Angelo: who seems to
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Jim D'Angelo: not really they. They show up late. But the team standard is we show up on time
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Jim D'Angelo: Team Norm, is this their work product? Everybody looks at like. Why, why is that?
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Jim D'Angelo: How is that? Okay?
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Jim D'Angelo: The workload seems misplaced on 4 out of 5.
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Jim D'Angelo: Well, if you allow that person to stay, and you don't have that hard conversation with them.
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Jim D'Angelo: the quality from everybody else will begin to descend. Because why? Why should I put myself out there? Why should I work hard? Why should I strive for that excellence when
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Jim D'Angelo: this for let's even assume that they're making less money. Then that's still, that's not enough for this to be acceptable. And so
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Jim D'Angelo: you're actually hurting the people the other people around by trying to focus on saving that one person.
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Danny Gluch: You're degrading that trust.
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Jim D'Angelo: You are.
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Danny Gluch: Because part of the trust is you're going to hold consistently people.
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Jim D'Angelo: Exactly excellent.
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Jim D'Angelo: exactly, and and.
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Danny Gluch: And that makes it hard, cause we we've all been in a place where a a junior employee is doing something for the first time.
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Jim D'Angelo: Right.
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Danny Gluch: And you can't just say great job
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Danny Gluch: you can't. You need to squint at them and go. Wow!
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Danny Gluch: Something.
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Danny Gluch: We need to go back to the drawing board and really work on some foundational stuff before you get there.
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Jim D'Angelo: Right and and be curious about it, too, with them.
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Jim D'Angelo: It's yes. And and it's all contextual in the environment that you're trying to create.
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Jim D'Angelo: If
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Jim D'Angelo: if you want to sit down with that junior person who messed up, you can say, Hey, this is the standard. And I didn't see you meet that.
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Jim D'Angelo: That's okay. That is just a statement. I did not see you meet that.
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Jim D'Angelo: Now, this is where the practice comes in. I think
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Jim D'Angelo: we need to
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Jim D'Angelo: allow our employees to practice being uncomfortable.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Jim D'Angelo: Because just because I said I didn't see it, I didn't say you suck. I didn't say you're a terrible person. I didn't say that I'm right. You're wrong.
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Jim D'Angelo: I said. I didn't see it.
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Jim D'Angelo: Help me understand.
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Danny Gluch: Now walk me through your thought process. Yeah.
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Jim D'Angelo: Being on that. How did you get to the.
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Cacha Dora: This conclusion, yeah.
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Jim D'Angelo: Yes, and and to ask that in a way, I I've heard from a couple of people in leadership roles, a couple of people a lot of people. Oh, I know that the the thing you're supposed to do as a leader is ask questions. And so I like to ask, did you really think that was gonna work?
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Marion: Yeah, okay, so.
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Jim D'Angelo: That's not. That's not a good question like.
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Cacha Dora: So optimal.
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Jim D'Angelo: Stop.
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Marion: That's that sounds like that sounds like a trial attorney that.
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Jim D'Angelo: It does.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Jim D'Angelo: Yeah, right? But instead, if you're asking help me understand? Can?
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Jim D'Angelo: What did you think about this that was going to work like trying to understand where
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Jim D'Angelo: their personal the thought process kind of broke down, or their understanding or yours.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, cause maybe you just missed it.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, absolutely. And I think this this is a great transition to to one of the last things that I'd like us to cover today is
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Danny Gluch: the difficulties in in managers and leaders really
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Danny Gluch: doing this well, really holding people to a standard of excellence while still being compassionate, and is.
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Danny Gluch: I'm just gonna ask. Blink is
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Danny Gluch: one of the real difficulties, the fact that they don't have a lot of experience. They don't have a lot of practice of also being in those uncomfortable situations, and being honest, holding people accountable and being compassionate at the same time. Cause that seems
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Danny Gluch: that seems like not a lot of things people get practice in as they grow up through organizations.
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Cacha Dora: I feel like there's an avoidance to uncomfortability. To begin with, right? Like it's it's an it's 100% avoidance of well
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Cacha Dora: that I mean, why do you think the sandwich method exists.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, if you avoid it, you're not getting any practice. So the first time you try it, it's gonna be.
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Danny Gluch: And reading a book isn't going to help right? Like I use this analogy and learning all of the time. Going back to when I was first starting to teach, is
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Danny Gluch: you you. You can't read a book and expect to do something just like you can't read the rules of the road, and how like internal combustion engines work, and think you're a good driver
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Danny Gluch: like that's just not how things work. You have to get out on the road, and you've got to practice.
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Jim D'Angelo: Absolutely not.
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Danny Gluch: People practice this gym.
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Jim D'Angelo: Yeah. So this is one of the things that I I absolutely love doing with folks.
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Jim D'Angelo: I love that you brought up. You can't read a book and then suddenly know how I I love cross country skiing. And I watch videos. And I read and I like, try. I I want to be better.
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Jim D'Angelo: But no matter how much I read, and no matter how
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Jim D'Angelo: the quality of gear that I buy, the first time I step out on the snow. I'm going to eat it.
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Jim D'Angelo: and the second time, and the third time
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Jim D'Angelo: and there's this idea in cross country skiing that if you're not falling down, then you're not learning.
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Jim D'Angelo: So the goal is not to never fall down, but to keep pushing yourself to the point where you're still learning. You're still trying new things. You're you are falling down. That's an expectation. The sport.
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Jim D'Angelo: So
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Jim D'Angelo: there are a couple of things that I like doing one is to create a space for managers to practice these hard conversations. So if I sat down with an employee and really bombed, giving feedback.
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Jim D'Angelo: having a space where I can go and say, Okay, this is what I said. And this is how they reacted. Can we role play this out like, yes, it feels weird the first couple of times you do it. That's fine. Again. You have to learn to be uncomfortable as much as you're asking your employees to do it.
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Jim D'Angelo: And practicing those conversations is critical.
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Jim D'Angelo: Another thing that I love helping folks implement is the idea of free dos.
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Jim D'Angelo: So I I might not have. You know I've read the book. I've done this thing. I know what I'm supposed to say, but I don't know how to say it authentically from me, or I don't really have the words. And so, being able to say, Hey, Marian, I I want to give you this feedback, but I might mess it up, and so
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Jim D'Angelo: do you mind if I just say it, and then
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Jim D'Angelo: like, let's pause before you respond, because I wanna make sure the words are
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Jim D'Angelo: what I want to come out.
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Jim D'Angelo: And if I if we start going down a path and recognize, like
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Jim D'Angelo: I'm trying to give you feedback, but there's a defensiveness. Can we? Can we back up and try this again?
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Jim D'Angelo: and make that part of what goes on when giving feedback is is huge.
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Jim D'Angelo: And and the final thing is.
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Jim D'Angelo: you really gotta look in the mirror and ask, Do do we truly want excellence here? Do we want to talk about it?
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Jim D'Angelo: So
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Jim D'Angelo: it's like New Year's where everybody
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Jim D'Angelo: is gonna lose weight. Everybody is gonna get in shape.
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Jim D'Angelo: The reality is, most of us want to want to get in shape. Most of us want to want, because if you wanted to, if I want a a nice glass of wine, I'm going to have a nice glass of wine if I want to have that the fries instead of the salad. Guess what? I I'm gonna have the fries instead of salad
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Jim D'Angelo: and that's because I want that more than I want this other thing right? I want that instant comfort today more than I want to be in shape.
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Jim D'Angelo: And organizations are very similar. If you do, you really want your organization to be in shape?
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Jim D'Angelo: If so, it's gonna be painful, just like going to the gym or starting to run, or any anything that we start new
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Jim D'Angelo: sucks, and you're gonna mess up, and you're not going to be good at it. But that's not a reason for not trying.
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Marion: I I think
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Marion: given people
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Marion: really good guardrails and and safety nets like that, hey? If I screw this up, you know I'm really so, you know. And again that comes back to the psychological safety thing. I was just
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Marion: Kasha. You probably might have had the same
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Marion: light bulb moment when I was thinking about previous company, the Kash and I worked for who had a very prescriptive model for how you would approach feedback and
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Marion: still works today, right? Because a lot of it was certainly around. How you approached it you can probably guess who the company is by the acronym. You know how you positioned. Did you ask for permission? Were you listening? And did you end right? So like it's, you know, when you give people those kind of guardrails a and a safety net, and then, with the addition of your license to say.
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Marion: I balls this up, you know.
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Jim D'Angelo: Right.
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Marion: I'm gonna apologize right now, and there's absolutely no malice in it. My intention is absolutely pure. Then
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Marion: that's a beautiful place
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Marion: to be able to get to and.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, to.
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Marion: To to create for your employees. And again, that just adds to that psychological safety right.
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Cacha Dora: I think it also, too, when Jim, when you were talking about it, the thing that like what really was
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Cacha Dora: very apparent
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Cacha Dora: in that kind of situation. If you already acknowledge that you might mess it up. What a great trust builder with someone to show a level of vulnerability.
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Marion: Bye.
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Cacha Dora: Saying, look like I'm just as human as you. I want to talk with you about this, but you know
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Cacha Dora: I could muck it up and acknowledge that acknowledgement automatically
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Cacha Dora: will take someone's shoulders down a little bit right. Those hackles come down exactly because there there's an acknowledgement of like okay.
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Cacha Dora: this person isn't up on high from the mount, shouting at me.
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Danny Gluch: And that makes such a difference.
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Cacha Dora: Difference that should be the I'm not even receiving it as we're talking about it. I was like.
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Marion: But that should be leadership in general. Right? You know.
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Cacha Dora: Be, a.
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Marion: And that is a fine balance, because nobody wants to work for someone who clearly doesn't know what they're doing right. There's there's that other extreme, but you know, to be able to look at your team in the face. A. A. I'm pretty sure I've done this, you know. Caution Danny can attest to this where I've went. I actually don't know what the answer is, but you know what. I'm pretty sure we could figure it out between us right.
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Jim D'Angelo: Yeah.
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Marion: Think that, you know.
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Marion: Certainly when I've had bosses like that.
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Marion: and they've helped me feel part of the solution that made me want to do more for them. So if we can kind of move eagles out the way a little bit as well and and as leaders recognize you, you don't. You won't know everything. You can't know everything. And, in fact, you work with a bunch of people who are really smart.
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Marion: Let's solve it together. That the gift
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Marion: or the the benefit of that
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Marion: is multi fold right.
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Jim D'Angelo: Yeah.
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Marion: Just keep giving. So it's so important.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I I wanna one of the last things I'd like to ask Jim about before we we wrap up is this idea of ego and self perception, and and how this creates so like a real, complex
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Danny Gluch: situation, to to grow and hold people accountable, because not everyone's self-perception is accurate. And what happens when we're trying to hold someone to a standard of excellence, of
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Danny Gluch: of being really great at your job and and performing well while being compassionate
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Danny Gluch: and the feedback you're giving them of again. And and I think you did a great job of like, hey? This is what I'm seeing right. The the all the great, you know, rules that we've learned and and.
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Jim D'Angelo: You know.
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Danny Gluch: Effective communication stuff and compassionate communication. That's all great.
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Danny Gluch: But what happens when that
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Danny Gluch: doesn't line up with
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Danny Gluch: one? How the person sees their work, and also how they view themselves right. Their ego of I.
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Jim D'Angelo: Sure.
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Danny Gluch: They're really good.
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Jim D'Angelo: Oh.
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Jim D'Angelo: so I I love that question because and I was thinking through that as we were talking about this, because there is
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Jim D'Angelo: one a.
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00:46:06.070 --> 00:46:10.140
Jim D'Angelo: Your heart needs to be your, the your approach.
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Jim D'Angelo: you you have to continue to refine it such that
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Jim D'Angelo: I I'm truly curious about your position and not my own. So we have to manage our own egos. We have to manage our own perspective. So we we need to learn how how to receive feedback ourselves if we can't receive it. Everybody can be a critic, right? It's so easy to be a critic. But until you have been on the receiving end of good feedback and bad feedback, and know what works and understand what works with, you know.
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Jim D'Angelo: not everybody's gonna receive feedback. Same. So how do I engage with you? And in a way that you will respond to, which is a huge part of radical candor. Right? We like to talk about it is. Well, I I'm just being. I use my radical candor to tell you that you're you know you're garbage, cause I'm just. I'm just calling it how I see it!
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Cacha Dora: Critical.
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Jim D'Angelo: Exactly. But really it's it's understanding. Hey, Kash, I'm going to give you feedback, and I need to do that in a way that resonates with you, otherwise it's not effective. So why the hell would I say? In the first place.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Jim D'Angelo: And so we're gonna put you.
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Cacha Dora: Yourself in an uncomfortable situation, and someone else in an uncomfortable situation. Better be damn well worth it.
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Jim D'Angelo: Exactly. And and and the reason why we tend, I think, to
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Jim D'Angelo: be more degrading and catch you. You suck at this, and you're terrible. You didn't do this thing, it it because my ego is getting in the way right, I might be wrong, and so it's easier for me to push and and tell you that you are wrong than to be open to criticism myself.
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Jim D'Angelo: And so I I think to kind of get back to the the question, How do you do this? There are 2 things that come to mind. One is, I really love the nonviolent communication framework, or a any framework that causes your language to be to tease out the different aspects of what you're trying to do. So understanding the objective. This is what happened?
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Jim D'Angelo: How did you feel about this? As a person? You have emotions or as a human. You have emotions
494
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Jim D'Angelo: you can talk about them, but don't mix it up with what happened
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Jim D'Angelo: then, teasing apart and understanding, what do you need as as the person in the manager role or the leadership position, what? What is it that you need?
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Jim D'Angelo: and that has there has to be
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Jim D'Angelo: devoid of the other person? Your needs are your responsibility to fill, not not somebody else's. So it's not that. Hey, Danny? I need you to talk to me in a certain way.
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Jim D'Angelo: right? I need to feel safe, and I need to know that I can give feedback.
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00:48:43.839 --> 00:48:49.589
Jim D'Angelo: What I want now, right? The want is something that I could ask of you. So
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Jim D'Angelo: I need
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Jim D'Angelo: an environment where we give feedback
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Jim D'Angelo: freely. And in this way, Danny, I would love for you to consider,
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Jim D'Angelo: being open to what I'm trying to tell you and and what I'm trying to talk to you about, I understand, is uncomfortable.
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00:49:08.590 --> 00:49:13.900
Jim D'Angelo: But really you would enrich my life and everybody else's life by considering this.
505
00:49:14.320 --> 00:49:18.180
Jim D'Angelo: Now you get to opt in, if you choose not to. That's fine.
506
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Jim D'Angelo: I I can't force you to do this.
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00:49:21.180 --> 00:49:23.050
Jim D'Angelo: What I can say is.
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00:49:23.290 --> 00:49:24.900
Jim D'Angelo: who's in and who's out.
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00:49:25.361 --> 00:49:28.279
Jim D'Angelo: and to be in my in group to be included.
510
00:49:28.510 --> 00:49:34.170
Jim D'Angelo: requires this set of behaviors, and if you're unwilling to participate, that that is fine.
511
00:49:35.090 --> 00:49:36.720
Jim D'Angelo: but it might. I might
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Jim D'Angelo: be hurt. That's fine. I have feelings, but objectively I can't change you. And so you're opting in or out. I'm not telling you that you're in or out until you can't make that decision. You could say I want to be in. But really it's I want to want to be in right exactly.
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00:49:55.590 --> 00:49:58.669
Danny Gluch: Want to be good at my job. I'm just. I don't really want to.
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Jim D'Angelo: Right right? And some jobs require a lot of us. And and that's okay. If
515
00:50:04.240 --> 00:50:06.399
Jim D'Angelo: we all hit points in our life where
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Jim D'Angelo: we were the maybe the the a player. And then life hit us in the face with a 2 by 4. And
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Jim D'Angelo: what we're doing today is just not working.
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00:50:18.550 --> 00:50:22.029
Jim D'Angelo: I don't have. I don't know what's going on in your life. And that's okay.
519
00:50:22.940 --> 00:50:27.979
Jim D'Angelo: I I like to know some of the details in general things that are going on because we built a rapport.
520
00:50:28.610 --> 00:50:31.739
Jim D'Angelo: But it's also not my job to like Judge.
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Jim D'Angelo: you being in or out, that you should do this or shouldn't do this. That's up to you. I want you to. I want you to be on the team.
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Jim D'Angelo: But I don't need you to be on the team.
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Danny Gluch: And that that's such a great
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Danny Gluch: perspective that I think doesn't get brought up when we talk about inclusion.
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00:50:49.780 --> 00:50:52.010
Danny Gluch: asking people if they really do want
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Danny Gluch: to be included if they want to jump on the boat and be on this team.
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00:50:56.280 --> 00:51:00.530
Danny Gluch: row in the same direction, which is a phrase I hate? But do they want to?
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Danny Gluch: And then do they want to? Or do they want to want to? Right? Are they actually gonna do it? Because if they wanted to, they would do it, and if they don't.
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Danny Gluch: then you're not on the boat.
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Danny Gluch: and and I think that's if this whole conversation was summed up. That that that inviting people in to to ask if they want to be included is so cool.
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Danny Gluch: and then letting their actions really show whether or not. They want to.
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Jim D'Angelo: Right.
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Marion: And and also just from a workforce perspective. Sometimes it's the right. Well, I I would say, bus not both.
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00:51:35.090 --> 00:51:38.510
Marion: sometimes it's the right bus, but the wrong seat, right.
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Jim D'Angelo: Right.
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Marion: So, you know, when you can have to again take that step back and have that ability to
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Marion: act compassionately, but also look at the bigger picture. Sometimes it just takes a small adjustment and it clicks into place, sometimes not, but.
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Danny Gluch: Absolutely well.
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00:51:55.770 --> 00:51:58.309
Danny Gluch: we're we're at our time
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00:51:59.585 --> 00:52:07.750
Danny Gluch: Kasha, Marian, Jim, is there anything you would like to to say or add, I think that's a really cool place to to end on where we're we're at a place of
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Danny Gluch: of real strong inclusion and getting people to want to be included and and giving them that that ability to choose
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Danny Gluch: while holding to a high standard and and protecting our group and creating accountability and excellence. And and I I really hope there's some practical lessons I know I learned a lot, and I'm gonna mess up until I get better. But that's great.
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Danny Gluch: Do you guys have any thoughts to wrap up.
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Marion: No, I feel like we covered a lot. And I'm
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Marion: yeah. I'm excited to listen to this again. I feel like there's more to absorb.
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Cacha Dora: The thing that keeps bouncing around my head is just how you can use trust
547
00:52:49.980 --> 00:52:53.299
Cacha Dora: in the workplace in a very different way.
548
00:52:53.320 --> 00:52:55.090
Cacha Dora: because I think that
549
00:52:55.560 --> 00:52:59.279
Cacha Dora: people just hear the word exclusion, and they automatically shut everything off.
550
00:52:59.640 --> 00:53:03.149
Cacha Dora: And if they trust in the process, then they'll be included
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00:53:03.950 --> 00:53:04.610
Cacha Dora: right.
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00:53:05.210 --> 00:53:08.902
Danny Gluch: If I don't exclude some things, it's hard to keep up. Trust.
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Jim D'Angelo: I don't think I have anything else to add, though I could talk about this for forever ad nauseam. But this is an enjoyable conversation. This is amazing. Thank you.
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Danny Gluch: Would like to get a hold of you to have more of these conversations. Where can they get a hold of you, Jim?
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00:53:25.900 --> 00:53:35.819
Jim D'Angelo: Yeah, I spend a lot of time on Linkedin right now. But email listening to this podcast and yeah.
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Marion: We'll add your contact details in the show notes. So.
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Jim D'Angelo: Wonderful.
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00:53:39.500 --> 00:53:40.440
Marion: Can get in touch.
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Danny Gluch: The show. No magic. Well, thank you all for listening. We'll see you next time. Be sure to leave that 5 star review give a like a subscribe. You can contact us at the elephant
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Danny Gluch: or not. The elephant. Sorry, just elephant@thefearlesspx.com. Thank you, everyone. We'll see you next time.
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Jim D'Angelo: Cheers.
