The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
From Quiet Quitting to Stealth Sunbathing: The Evolution of Workplace Rebellion
In this eye-opening episode of The Elephant in the Org, hosts Marion, Cacha, and Danny tackle the latest trend in workplace rebellion: quiet vacationing. Inspired by a recent Korn Ferry article, our hosts dive deep into this stealthy practice where employees take time off without explicitly informing their employers.
Are your zoom backgrounds more present than you are? Is your cubicle turning into a secret escape hatch? We're uncovering it all!
Key discussion points include:
- The art of the virtual vanishing act
- Trust falls and quiet calls: navigating modern work culture
- Why your best talent might be on a secret staycation
- Moving beyond managerial whack-a-mole
Whether you're a manager wondering where your team disappeared to, or an employee considering a stealth sunbathing session, this episode is packed with insights, laughs, and actionable advice.
Join us as we explore how to create workplaces where employees don't need to play hide and seek for a mental health day. It's time to talk about trust, flexibility, and the future of work – no background required!
Tune in, turn up, and let's tackle the elephant in the org together!
The Telltale Signs of Quiet Vacationing
Connect with Us:
- Follow The Fearless PX on Linkedin at The Fearless PX
- Visit our website for more content and updates: https://www.thefearlesspx.com/
- Reach out to Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlessp.com
- You can find all episodes of The Elephant in the Org here.
We encourage you to subscribe and leave a review if you found this episode enlightening!
From April 2024, all new episodes of The Elephant In the Org will be posted bi-weekly.
Music Credits:
Opening and closing theme by The Toros.
Production Credits:
Produced by The Fearless PX, Edited by Marion Anderson.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are exclusively those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations’ official policy or position.
Episode 29 - Quiet Vacationing.
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Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the elephant in the org, everyone. I'm Danny Gluttch, and I'm joined by my co-hosts. As always. Kasha Dora.
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Cacha Dora: Helloo.
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Danny Gluch: And Marion Anderson.
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Marion: Hi.
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Danny Gluch: Today's elephant is a juicy one, because I had never heard of it before. It was like a real hidden in the corner. Elephant.
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Danny Gluch: Quiet vacationing is now being talked about, everybody not quite quitting, not quiet. Whatever. The other stuff was quiet vacationing. We recently, I can't remember which one of you found the article and shared it. But my! I was slackjawed just like what is happening, but the more I read it the more it made sense, so
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Danny Gluch: which one of you found it, and wants to describe quiet vacationing to the listeners.
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Marion: Yeah, it was me. I came across another corn very corn fairly have incredible articles. By the way, like, every time I read one, I'm like, Oh, that's a good one. And it's not just them, I think. Honestly, I think this has been around for a while right, for as long as people have worked
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Marion: remotely or hybrid, they've done that thing where they've been like, oh, I'm working from home on Friday. I'm working from late Tahoe on Friday. Do you know what I mean? Like it's always been there. But basically it's it's that. It's it's, you know, the the article describes the phenomena of
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Marion: and it picks out
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Marion: millennials, I think. I think, yeah.
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Cacha Dora: And Jen's a years. Yeah.
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Marion: A.
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Cacha Dora: Agency, or.
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Marion: Yeah, it does. Which is, I mean, given the research. That's not surprise, I suppose. But
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Marion: and yeah, basically just going on vacation, not telling anyone but having their zoom background on before they go. And you know, pre, pre scheduling their emails or Linkedin posts or whatever. So there's tons of little indicators that you can see that would maybe like your spidey senses would kick in and be like.
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Marion: It's probably on vacation. And surprise surprise. Ceos are getting their panties and a bunch about it because they're you know, freaking out that you know people are skiving off, and and all of the things. And
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Marion: I mean
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Marion: to me it's pretty. Fucking, obvious
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Marion: is really obvious. Don't measure people on how many hours they sit in front of a screen, measure them on what they produce.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, exactly. And especially.
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Danny Gluch: As we get more and more tools for productivity
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Danny Gluch: like it's we should be encouraging efficiency and getting your work done like quickly and well over.
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Danny Gluch: Well, were you available to me, for you know, 9 h Monday, through Friday.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: All right.
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Danny Gluch: My beck and call.
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Cacha Dora: You should be. The the goal, I think always is to pay people for their thinking power, not how well their fingers work right like on on their keyboard or on their mouse. And I'm obviously in an office environment. If you're gonna be in manufacturing or something. Well, then, quiet quitting is not really gonna be part of what you could do so easily, because you're gonna be like on the line or something like that. But no, I agree with you, Danny. I think a a you as well, Mary, and I think it's important to like people. Just seem to Ceos and your Cfos
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Cacha Dora: people who are looking at the numbers and crunching. All of those things aren't, as always, taking into account, not just the human factor, but like how impactful people are when they are at their best.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: And it's not about being available. 8 to 5 in office. It's like, you know, one of the things that the
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Cacha Dora: the article brings up is like walking meetings which.
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Cacha Dora: as we know, are so effective, right? Because you're it's getting your blood flow going. You've got all all of your synapses firing, because now you're also aware. Get your little birds tripping in your trees
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Cacha Dora: and all that kind of stuff, and it's really nice, cause it helps you get in the best mindset
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Cacha Dora: of being able to have a work meeting and be creative or productive? Is it quiet vacationing?
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Cacha Dora: No.
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Cacha Dora: But
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Cacha Dora: is it getting you out of either your house or even the office, like how many people leave the office to go for a walk
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Cacha Dora: for the exact same reason, and so like the article. What I really appreciate about the article is, it wasn't fear mongering cause. I feel like a lot of these articles where they're talking about
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Cacha Dora: the quiet thing.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Thing is.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: It's like, Oh, be aware. And like, this is bad. And da, da, and it's like
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Cacha Dora: people use virtual backgrounds for a million reasons. And the article isn't being like. Be aware of these virtual backgrounds. They're just saying how they've seen it arise.
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Marion: Yeah, you know, a a lot of those articles are clickbait. Let's face it, and they start causing hysteria amongst the C-suite. And you know everyone's getting their tights in a tangle, you know it. It comes back to that fundamental thing of trust.
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Marion: Right. And I read a counter art article. And there was a CEO who basically sort of said, You know what was his name David Barco, and he's a founder of a Pr. Firm based in Florida. And you know, he, he says the same thing is is me like it comes down to trust right?
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Marion: And he's like, you know, he says to his team goal of your life, get the job done. I'm gonna trust you from the 1st minute. The moment I hire you, I trust you to get the job done. However, you feel best to do it right.
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Marion: and it is like it works. People are motivated when you don't.
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Cacha Dora: When you treat adults like adults.
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Marion: Can you treat people like adults? They're like.
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Marion: I like you. I'm gonna work hard for you. And I'm not gonna screw you over right.
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Cacha Dora: Which also tells you how rarely they get treated like that in the workplace.
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Marion: Exactly when you treat them like kids, they'll behave like kids, and so they'll try to do the equivalent of when you used to sneak your mum and dad's
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Marion: vodka out the door at 15 right? Like it's the same thing. You're just trying to be sneaky, and you're trying to do it in a way that you're not gonna get caught, and you're doing it to rebel because you're doing it because you're being treated like a child.
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Marion: And at the end of the day. Yes, there's there's there's logistical things about, you know, where people need to work for a sustained period of time for tax and payroll, and all of that, but at the end of the day, like, if you can do your job at Lake Tahoe, if you can do your job at home. If you could do your job
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Marion: in Montana, in Florida, like for a weekend or a week, or whatever like, as long as you're doing what you're tasked to do, and you're producing, and you are showing up when you need to show up.
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Marion: What's the big drama.
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Danny Gluch: But this is this is one of the the issues that I think comes up all the time.
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Danny Gluch: And I was reading, you know, I. I went down the rabbit hole of searching for quiet vacationing articles, and I found one by Forbes and one of they. One of the things they found is that more than 50% of employees find that it's hard for them to take time off like actual time off.
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Danny Gluch: because there's a pressure of availability.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: And the.
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Danny Gluch: And I honestly think that you know what you're saying and and what you know all the leadership books say of like, Hey, here's your role. Here's what you're meant to produce. Just go do that. I trust you is is awesome. But I think it's really rare. I think most
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Danny Gluch: actual teams and organizations function as whack-a-mole. And they're just like as something comes up. We need it to get handled, and we don't look at things systematically or broadly to
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Danny Gluch: to control and predict these things. So what they're doing is I need you available to whack-a-mole because we can't whack-a-mole if you're not available. So the job really becomes. How readily available are you to put out these fires and to do this at, you know, on an instant, as opposed to hey, we know what we do. We have a calendar like
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Danny Gluch: this is due, you know. You need to deliver this next Thursday. You need to do deliver something else the following Friday. Just go ahead and do it. I don't care how, but they don't function that way because they're too short sided, and they're not thinking in that that sort of long.
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Marion: Exactly, exactly. And they're also
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Marion: They're not giving people license to be creative with solutions, you know, there's nuances to everything right there, every business, so you can't have a a 1. Size fits all approach to this, because every business have has different needs. But talk to your people. Say, look.
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Marion: we want to be able to let you work in the way that works best for you. But obviously, fundamentally, there's still things that have to be done there needs to be people available for clients. Between these windows. There needs to be this, there needs to be that.
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Marion: How do you propose? We solve that together. Because if you solve it together.
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Marion: then you're gonna get buy in. It's basic change management. Right again.
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Danny Gluch: And engagement everyone talks about. Oh, people are so disengaged. Well, you didn't ask them how they'd like to do this.
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Cacha Dora: Right well, and the other side of it, too, is for those organizations that need you available because you're the one that's going to fix it.
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Cacha Dora: That short sightedness also is not just on how are you going to fix it? It's also the short sightedness of
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Cacha Dora: how is this organization built?
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Cacha Dora: If everything is a house of cards that falls because one person took a vacation.
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Cacha Dora: you have a bigger problem in your organization, right? Or is it like, you know you're the one person who knows all these things. Okay, well, what are you doing to create the knowledge source to give you the freedom to leave? Or is there other organizational things right like
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Cacha Dora: that was like, that's all I've been thinking about after you said that, Danny, because
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Cacha Dora: there are so many businesses, large and small, that use availability as an excuse to not actually be efficient and effective in the organization. And instead, they're just like, Oh, well, you can't go because of this. And all you, if you create, had a new project that had a lot of people in it, this new project could give a lot of people, freedom.
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Marion: Yeah. And and also, if you kind of like, take it back to
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Marion: the the old Pto discussion. Right? You know the Us. Is still in a lot of places in the dark ages. With how it approaches. Pto. Right? It's getting there. We are seeing the change, but you know it says slow as a week in jail as we'd see in Scotland.
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Marion: And you know, if people are, or even if they have unlimited Pto, right. But you've got that culture of oh, I can't take it.
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Danny Gluch: And we're gonna be, yeah.
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Marion: You know, Judgy, and and giving me shit for it, even if they don't verbally say it. I'm feeling it like.
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Marion: of course you're going to take quiet vacations. Right? Of course you are right. It's just nuts like, honestly take your head out the sand. C-e-o's like, stop being an outstretch. Get your head out your sand and like, actually look at what's going on around you.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, it was.
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Cacha Dora: Especially cause you've got so many Ceos who do the exact same thing.
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Marion: Yeah, I know.
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Cacha Dora: Able.
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Cacha Dora: Right? It's oh, I need to travel just for one meeting today.
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Cacha Dora: And that's it.
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Cacha Dora: But it's okay, because I'm the CEO.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Instead of well, I could have made a whole day and been so productive, and I could have had all these meetings at my hotel because I had this other meeting. But no, you have the one meeting.
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Cacha Dora: and then you go and have a day.
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Cacha Dora: and that disparity
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Cacha Dora: empower and role function when reality is, if you've got your happy people
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Cacha Dora: and you communicate well, they're gonna do well.
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Marion: Yeah, so what if they.
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Cacha Dora: They take like a call from a hiking trail, I mean kudos to them if they've got signal in the 1st place. But.
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Danny Gluch: That it.
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Marion: Yeah, you know, I
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Marion: as a
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Marion: as a manager of managers, you know.
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Marion: especially with an Hr team, right? You have to have people available for people, because shit happens. And so that's the job, right?
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Cacha Dora: Right, yeah.
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Marion: But there's ways to manage it, you know.
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Danny Gluch: Hmm.
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Marion: And and at the end of the day, you know, let's go back to psychological safety like we do with everything, you know. If you have psychological safety.
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Marion: Then, Danny, you can easily see Takasha to me. Whatever do you know what
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Marion: I'm I've been really working on this thing for the last few days. It's busting my brain. I know we've got a call. I'm gonna take a hike. Are you? Good with me? Joining the call from the hike. And I'd be like, Danny.
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Marion: absolutely. Yeah. And.
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Cacha Dora: Anything else that might inspire you to do the same thing.
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Marion: Exactly. Exactly. You know. I'm sitting here with a bad back
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Marion: on my bouncing on my space ball right? And I know that a lot of that. I mean, I have a reason for it. I have a condition that causes it, but it gets worse when I sit too long right?
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Marion: And so, although it's like 8,000 degrees in the desert right now. So I'm not out walking during the day at all.
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Marion: you know, spontaneously combust. But you know
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Marion: it's it's a relief and a release for me to get up and be able to go for a walk. Take the dogs for a walk.
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Marion: and sometimes I just do my best thinking when I'm walking, you know, or have my.
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Danny Gluch: Do the best.
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Marion: Like, you, yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Well, and and also, too, Marian, I think you bring up a good point right? Especially for people who are working hybrid
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Cacha Dora: or even working remote. So those those groups of people who maybe have pets that they take for walks.
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Cacha Dora: their animals give them joy right? So if you are out walking your dog on a walk, on a walk, with like having a brainstorming session working on a project.
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Cacha Dora: If your brain is already getting that level of dopamine.
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Marion: Yeah. The.
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Cacha Dora: Think about how much better at your job you're going to be, because now your stress is decreased, your creativity can increase like we've had these conversations around how we get creativity to happen in the workplace. And there's ways to get creative with being creative. And you gotta open the doorway for it, too, and I think, for people who feel so constricted
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Cacha Dora: within the rigidity of work
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Cacha Dora: I get. Why quiet vacationing happens. I truly do. Because if you do feel trapped, which
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Cacha Dora: is a lot of what you and Danny have both been talking about with how people feel within the availability space.
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Cacha Dora: That rebellions going to happen as a self serving protective mechanism, not even to like voice that you need it at at some point. You're just like I need a nap, because I need a nap.
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Danny Gluch: That.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: So. I mean, if
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Marion: yeah, regardless of whether you have a medical condition or not, you know, I mean, I I do. And I've realized is that's progress. Sometimes I need to lie down for half an hour during the day. But then guess what? I probably started early, anyway, because I work based in the morning. Do you know what I mean? Like.
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Cacha Dora: Gotta know how you are. Right? Yeah, exactly.
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Danny Gluch: Well, there's there's 2 things I'd like to bring up
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Danny Gluch: 1st off.
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Danny Gluch: I think that our tools for remote work and our actual ability to have some of that autonomy
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Danny Gluch: allows us to say, you know what I just don't need to have that conversation.
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Danny Gluch: I I can do this thing that I'm I'm available. I've got my status message. I can schedule this, and I'm just going to go take that nap and not bother messaging anyone.
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Marion: Yep.
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Danny Gluch: And and I I wonder if
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Danny Gluch: that's not a terrible thing. I know you know, when I worked with you all, and it was like I need to just get out and go for a walk, or or I need to lay down, or whatever it was I could say that. But like.
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Danny Gluch: is it really bad if someone's like, you know what I just need to do this. And I'm not going to bother having that conversation, because these tools and mechanisms are in place to where no one's going to know
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Danny Gluch: is, is that bad? Culturally, I feel icky about it. Well.
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Marion: Again. It comes back to those parameters right.
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Cacha Dora: I feel like the undertone is, where is where your answer lies?
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Marion: Yeah, there needs to be. There needs to be parameters that everyone signs up for. And Kash, I don't know if you ever saw this one by always remember, our previous employer, what one of the execs, Steve, can. We used to do this great drawing? And it was a square right? And that's your parameters of how you work. That's your policies and your procedures.
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Marion: And within it is like the squiggliest line, and it goes up, down, round, backwards, forwards. And basically, that's the employee. And so as long as you stay within those agreed parameters, but you, you do what you need to do to make the magic happen. That's all that matters right? So it comes back to the same thing, you know. If you have agreed ways of measuring productivity.
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Marion: you know I don't care like. And again, it's not. There's nuances. But you know, in a general kind of like office context that you don't have to be there on.
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Marion: you know, on guard, waiting for someone to come in.
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Marion: I don't care if you do that work at 5 in the morning, or you do that work at 6 at night. Yes, if there's meetings during the day, absolutely, I'm going to expect you to be there as part of the job right, but in terms of the other things, and how you work around that
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Marion: all I cared about is that one. It's getting done to a a standard that I expect.
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Marion: and that you're not suffering to make that happen.
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Marion: because if you're in a good spot
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Marion: the job will get done well right if you're not in a good spot.
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Marion: you know, and from once once
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Marion: that
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Marion: that negative energy seeps in, you can't connect it like once that comes into the culture. It's done.
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Danny Gluch: When you, when you were making that second point. That's really where it's like
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Danny Gluch: I get that you could quietly do it. And some people need to quietly do it because they don't have that relationship.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Right.
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Danny Gluch: That second part of being able to voice to your your team or your your manager that you are in need of this. It it kind of fills that like. Oh, now, there's a what an awareness and a relationship of
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Danny Gluch: I see you're struggling, and you're not in your best place. Now I'm gonna
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Danny Gluch: encourage you to do that, and maybe even a little more than you were about to to quietly take.
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Cacha Dora: Exactly. I mean you start that conversation, and how often I think
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Cacha Dora: all of us have had really good managers at at places where, when you do voice those things, they go take the day off.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, yeah. Just take the day.
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Danny Gluch: The day, the.
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Cacha Dora: The meetings aren't important.
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Cacha Dora: Take the day. Do you need a couple of days like especially, you know, like like Marian, like you mentioned, right like. There are circumstances at play like depending on what? Why, you need the break.
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Cacha Dora: and you being able to feel psychologically safe to explain what that is, or you don't have to dive deep. It's not like you need to have a therapy session with your manager, but you know.
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Cacha Dora: unless you've got that kind of rapport, and both of you are, are, you know, accommodating to that.
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Cacha Dora: But being able to talk with your manager and say, here's what I have going on. I'm feeling a little burnt out. My brains feel a little crispy. I'm a fried egg I need. I need this just time and space. And yeah, if it gives you a 3 day weekend great, you know, like awesome for you. But at the end of the day
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Cacha Dora: I always worry about those moments when you don't feel safe enough to say it. In the 1st place like that. That's when I think employees
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Cacha Dora: that opens up the second conversation, which is, if you don't feel safe enough to do that. And you know that that's the consistent culture
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Cacha Dora: that's when you start quietly looking for work and that quiet vacation transitions into.
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Danny Gluch: Quiet, quitty.
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Cacha Dora: Winning.
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Marion: It does. It does a a, you know, and I think, again, depending on the culture of the organization, the more senior you get, there's almost an unsaid expectation that you know what.
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Marion: I woke up at 5 to jump on a call in Germany and I and then I I you know, worked until 9 because I had to take a call and type a right? So guess what
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Marion: I'm going to finish at 12 on Friday, right?
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Marion: And I'm probably not gonna even talk about it, because, you know, I'm I'm senior. I didn't really like. Why should I? Right.
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Danny Gluch: Just gonna reclaim my time.
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Marion: But not but but that should be fair for everybody now. Obviously it has to be again parameters. Right? He has to be done in a way that's manageable. If you're more junior in a role, you're not going to be taking calls and germinate 5 and calls and type 8, 10, right? So executive levels different. But you know.
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Marion: geez like, it's basic. You know, people, if people are giving that much of themselves to the job.
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Marion: give it back.
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Danny Gluch: Meet them.
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Marion: 3. It's a car.
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Cacha Dora: Makes sense. It's good common sense.
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Marion: You know. Don't take them for granted.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, this goes what Kasia was saying it earlier, too, with the the disparity between the CEO's sort of autonomy and freedom. And you know I was, I was told early on in my twenties, like.
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Danny Gluch: you know, yeah, you work your way up the ladder. But one of the most things that you progress is your control over your life. And and like I get that, there's going to be a little disparity. But I think what what Kasha was talking about, and what you were just talking about. Marion
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Danny Gluch: reminds me of a trend I see on Linkedin all the time of
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Danny Gluch: be careful being really good at your work because you're gonna get rewarded with more work.
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Marion: Oh, I.
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Danny Gluch: It just happened.
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Marion: Conversation with a girlfriend, and I.
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Danny Gluch: I think that this is, and and I didn't see it in any of the articles I read. But I think this is part of it is when people do
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Danny Gluch: a freaking fantastic job at their job and they do it really efficiently, and the old team would have taken them 2 weeks to do something, but we sat down. We took the time to brainstorm a new process, and we did it in a day. People feel like I should be rewarded for that not given more tasks to fill those 2 weeks.
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Marion: Oh!
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Danny Gluch: Like I should get those 2 weeks.
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Marion: 100%. I just had this conversation with a girlfriend of mine who works in a very, you know, very business oriented environment.
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Marion: really a very male oriented environment, quite frankly, is a lot of males in this in this industry. And that's exactly what she's experienced right now. She's incredible at our job like she is shithole right?
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Marion: And she the reward for her being shithole is that she gets more piled on her, and she gets told that. You know we're giving you this because you're so great.
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Marion: and she's now dying right. And you can imagine me. I don't hold back when you know she, when we talk about it. And I'm like.
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Marion: you know, like is disgusting. Right? In
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Marion: cannot wrap my head around that like? Why can't people see that the more you pile on someone
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Marion: they're gonna leave like, and they're if they're so great, why are you pushing them out the door.
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Danny Gluch: Are going to.
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Cacha Dora: It was a.
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Danny Gluch: No, I can't take that project. And then they're just gonna go into, do a quiet vacation.
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Marion: Bike, run.
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Danny Gluch: Team. Because, yeah.
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Danny Gluch: here's what.
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Cacha Dora: Cause. If you if you really did value that person, you'd say you're doing such a incredible job, we're gonna promote you. We're gonna give you a raise. We're gonna do all these things. We're going to actually compensate you.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: For for the work that you're doing, or you know, maybe be a decent human and ask, Hey, is this too much? How much I know you've got a lot on your plate right now, instead of just shoveling.
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Marion: Yeah, I know.
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Cacha Dora: That would. That would be infuriating for anyone, and also
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Cacha Dora: the slippery slope of
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Cacha Dora: you. Start to be so good at your job that eventually you stop being good at your job.
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Marion: Yeah, well, that's.
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Cacha Dora: Voice.
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Marion: Is the performance curve right? That is, is Taylor's oldest time. Right.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: Someone comes in. We've all done it. I know I've done it. I've come in and I've been like, really on it, and I'm kicking down doors, and I'm really making things happen, and then it gets to the point where, you know, either I'm not being supported or rewarded or acknowledged, or any of the things. And so your performance is like, oh, well, fuck it, if no one else cares. I'm not gonna kid either, and that's the the one we track to to leave in right, and people are expensive to hire. So.
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Cacha Dora: Expensive.
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Marion: With.
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Cacha Dora: I feel like this, that again. I've had this conversation so many times with people, and like you don't like people.
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Cacha Dora: The people who need to understand how expensive hiring is. Don't. And it's like it's the man hours and all the work it takes for recruiting. It's the the work that the Hr team has to do for all of the legal paperwork and all of the stuff to make sure that the eyes are dotted and the t's are crossed right exactly.
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Marion: The.
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Cacha Dora: Then it's your training teams on the onboarding. Then it's the time on the team. Then it's like the onboarding that they have, and so like when you really think about it.
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Cacha Dora: How many people, how many hours, how many months.
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Marion: That does that doesn't include, you know, when you're bringing people in, and maybe your, you know, it's a competitive market. So you're maybe you know the salary? Obviously, maybe a sign in bonus. Maybe you know the the additional benefits right? Relocation, whatever that might be like, is expensive.
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Marion: At 1 point, I mean, at 1 point the average I read was like 27,000. And I'm like, that's way low. That does not take into into consideration all of these things, and I think probably given the employment market just now, that will have changed. But you know you just you
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Marion: times that by whatever your turnover rate is like, that's it's it's it's insane. So you know. And I think a lot of times, you know, senior people, leaders. Cpos, this is the data that they're showing. You know, this is the data that they're showing you. They're not just saying, Hey, our turnover was
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Marion: 8% right? They're seeing
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Marion: we lost this many people.
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Marion: Here's the average cost
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Marion: per person of what that is. And yeah, I know we've talked about averages not being great, right? But you know, it's a big
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Marion: that's a lot of math to do unless you've got something doing it for you. But if you, if you base that, at least on an average.
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Marion: it's giving you an indicator to say we just
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Marion: pissed like half a million dollars against the wall, because we didn't
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Marion: take care of these people and look at the exit evidence. The exit evidence says, is that they felt burned out. They didn't feel supported by the manager. They didn't feel that they could take vacation, even though they have unlimited. Pto. Right? Because it's oh, man, it's it's not. I can't believe in 2024 that these are the conversations that we're still having.
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Marion: so I don't know.
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Cacha Dora: So.
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Marion: Wake up!
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Cacha Dora: So here, here's here's the here's the the hot question. Then do you guys think that quiet vacationing is the gateway drug to quiet quitting.
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Marion: 100%.
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Danny Gluch: I don't. I'm I'm not sold on that yet.
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Danny Gluch: because I've you know, by the definition of what quiet vacation even is. I've done that and not been any interested in in leaving a role. It's just one of those like self preservation, you know.
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Danny Gluch: although I guess I didn't do it as quietly because I would talk to my manager and be like that's fine.
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Marion: That's not the same thing, Danny. No.
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Danny Gluch: You're right. Yeah.
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Marion: The same thing, and and you can't use your you can't compare that to your experience working with being caught up because.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: You know that we would give you whatever you needed to to be your best self right.
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Danny Gluch: So so so, yeah, I guess I guess it is. Then.
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Marion: Yeah, a a 100, as because boil it back. Why do people do it? They do it because they don't feel psychologically safe. They don't feel trusted that either burn out or there's a weird culture, or whatever that might be right. And so that's why they're doing it.
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Cacha Dora: And that's and the reason I asked is because the article doesn't say doesn't go into the why
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Cacha Dora: it goes into how to identify if it's happening right. The articles talking about the zoom backgrounds, the meetings beginning earlier, late scheduling things, taking phone calls.
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Cacha Dora: particularly for the generation of Gen. Z, who don't like phone calls. It's like a big red flag kind of deal. But like.
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Cacha Dora: that's why I ask, because the article doesn't go into why. And if you don't understand why they're doing it, then you also don't understand what happens afterward.
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Marion: Well, now, we're getting into my old run about all these people in our profession that can tell you what and how, but can't tell you why. Right now this is different. This is a a, an article, but a you know the the data is there. It's not rocket science like we, you know, it's really obvious why people are doing it. It's just
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Marion: for whatever reason Ceos and
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Marion: C-suite frankly, will just not buy into it. And and you know, still think that you know, autocratic leadership is the way forward. And sadly, that's becoming more relevant in society as well. So it's it's it's it's difficult.
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Danny Gluch: Part of the problem. I think part of the problem is a little bit what Kasha was talking about, where so many of these articles get thrown around, and a lot of them are clickbaity.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: The clickbaity tends to either be descriptive or prescriptive.
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Marion: Right.
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Danny Gluch: Describe. This is these are the signs of so and so, and this is what it's costing. This is why it matters. And then you know the CEO or the you know Cfo goes in, or you know, Chro goes in. And okay, now I I need to know how to handle this, and they immediately go to the prescriptive.
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Danny Gluch: And the prescriptive again, is ignoring the actual diagnostic of why something is happening. And it's just saying, Hey, lean into these managerial techniques and styles. And it's. And again, it's just gonna lean into that sort of autocratic authoritarian.
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Marion: Well, exactly a a. And again, Danny, you're just underpinning my whole rationale
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Marion: data.
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Marion: leveraged decisions.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: Qualitative and quantitative data together. Right?
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Marion: And
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Marion: you don't have to be doing a Phd. Or have a master's to understand the concept of that right.
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Marion: But look at where you're taking your source information from. Take it from from sources that that are not clickbaity and non biased, and are actually fact driven right. Don't be taking your facts from the Daily Fail or Wikipedia, right? Cause it's you know
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Marion: it. Just it's yeah.
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Danny Gluch: This goes a little bit into just sort of like communication styles. Oftentimes people stop looking for answers when they get a an action like point right when they get something to do that they think might solve it. They stop looking.
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Marion: It's true.
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Danny Gluch: Again. This is where once they get to the prescriptive. Oh, here's how you handle quiet quitting. Here's how you handle quiet vacationing. They stop looking and digging for why is this happening generally? And why is this happening in my organization? They don't care why anymore, because they have a something on their to do list.
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Cacha Dora: It's not that, Danny. It's the other part which I think is way worse, which is, they find an answer that they like.
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Danny Gluch: Oh, oh, 100%! If they get a prescriptive article that isn't what they like. They'll just keep swiping until they get kind of.
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Marion: 100%.
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Danny Gluch: Did they like? I.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, I I would almost rather like you stop looking, cause you had something to do. Cause then it's like, you know, like I, I get priority, shift. The thing that that grinds my gears is the oh, well, this aligns with my perspective, so.
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Marion: Yeah, a a. And that's human nature, right? But you know, kinda.
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Cacha Dora: It can be very toxic.
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Marion: Very toxic, but but slight tangent, but kind of aligned with what we're talking about. But, Kash, I think you were talking the other day about, you know.
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Marion: our profession or our profession kind of conferences.
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Marion: Being very
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Marion: milk toast, as Danny would say, right and very surface, and avoiding the hard questions. And that's something that we've talked a lot about, because we've all sat in some of these sessions and been like
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Marion: what was titled.
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Cacha Dora: This, and we didn't talk about this part.
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Marion: We're taught a.
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Cacha Dora: Right.
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Marion: Problem. We're just all gonna talk around it and all blow smoke up each other's ass like what?
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Marion: And we're not doing ourselves any favors here. Right? A. And this is continuing. And and this is these are the types of really hard things that we should be talking about and addressing. And we're not so until we get until we really just get some balls and actually steer this thing down and really fix it, really address it. We're just gonna keep having the same conversations.
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Danny Gluch: So that makes me want to circle back to cautious question of
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Danny Gluch: is quiet vacationing gateway to quiet quitting.
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Danny Gluch: And what? And I think we all agree that that? Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: And is something like the demands of availability.
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Danny Gluch: this sort of lack of of
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Danny Gluch: planning and lack of like real production expectations.
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Danny Gluch: and the the real. What you're expected to do in your job. What you're really being compensated for is your availability? Is is that a direct tie to? Yeah, I can only be here so long, because
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Danny Gluch: that's that's just not a sustainable expectation of performance.
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Marion: Yeah, and some jobs you have to be available right? If your customer service, regardless of whether you work at home or not, because a lot of customer service jobs are home based.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: You have to be available. Because guess what? That's your job. You've got to be the online right? But if you are, you know, maybe a finance person, or you work in in legal or compliance, or Hr, or whatever it might be. Sales like you're measured on other things.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, yeah.
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Marion: I have.
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Cacha Dora: Measured on the availability. You're measured on your.
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Danny Gluch: The customer service. My cousin was, you know, this was during Covid, we're fully remote customer service job.
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Danny Gluch: and
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Danny Gluch: he, you know, was doing this thing. Taking calls he was. He was really good as far as like tickets that he closed per hour. But he got reprimanded because they were tracking his clicks.
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Marion: Like.
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Cacha Dora: One? Why.
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Danny Gluch: What? You weren't on an official break here. Why, 20 min, were you just not on your things?
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Marion: Oh, God!
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Danny Gluch: And my my cousin. We were talking it. I I think this is Thanksgiving or Christmas, and he was like, because I was taking a dump like I'm sorry I need to be allowed to use the restroom and not have to like. Get that officially approved, and what no.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, and it's, it's.
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Danny Gluch: That kind of thing that like there's a tangible difference in the availability of customer service when that is the kind of observation.
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Marion: Hey! Taco.
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Cacha Dora: Right back to the trust thing
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Cacha Dora: right? If the organization is so distrusting of their workforce that they need to track the clicks, then that means that they don't trust the workforce.
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Marion: It's true. And and that's where your culture goes so far south it's redeemable. Now, again, we're oversimplifying this because there are complications. When it comes to hourly and salaried staff. Right? They are. Okay. So it's it's not, you know, we we can't just oversimplify this matter. But you know, having people tracked is just abhorrent. Right?
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Marion: There needs to be more creative thought and innovation around this. I read a research paper.
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Marion: It's about a year ago, I think maybe longer
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Marion: about, you know, kind of covid. And and towards the end of Covid the medical profession lost a lot of nurses right.
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Cacha Dora: Continue.
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Marion: They? They were done. They were like screw. This. I don't get paid enough for this shit, you know. Colleagues are dying. We're not being taken care of.
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Marion: you know I'm going to go, and I'm going to go and do injectables. I'm going to go and do aesthetics right, because I'll make more money, and I don't have to deal with people dying every day right
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Marion: good for them.
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Marion: So
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Marion: that obviously led, you know, hospitals to start to think about. How can we really think differently about how we retain
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Marion: and attract nurses?
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Marion: And obviously one of the things that you would automatically think as well, you know, if you if you're an er nurse, for example, or if you're a pediatric nurse, or whatever you know, you can't work from home because your patients are in hospital right? But
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Marion: a lot of the job
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Marion: is charting is that you know there's elements of that. And so what they they did a study where the and I can't remember if this was the Uk. The Us. So please forgive me. But they did a study where they trialled the nurse being in hospital like
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Marion: 5 days, or sorry 3 days, whatever it was, and then 2 days
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Marion: remote, and that might have been like half day and half day at home. I can't remember exactly how they did it.
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Marion: but they use that at home time to do the administrative work and guess what
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Marion: engagement went like that.
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Marion: And also
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Marion: sickness went like that like. And I'm going up and I'm going down for anyone who's just listening and not see my hand. But, like again, you just have to. We have technology, right?
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Marion: We have incredibly smart people. We just have to think differently. And we have to innovate. We cannot, you know, continue to say, well, we've always done it this way, like.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. Oh, good.
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Cacha Dora: Guess what the world is changing, and if you keep doing things, I have this conversation with some friends of mine yesterday, the day before wasn't about the workspace. It was about how hard it is to live now, and how
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Cacha Dora: our parents.
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Cacha Dora: who believed that, like social security, would take care of them
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Cacha Dora: are now in a world where social security has a harder time taking care of them because social security didn't account for how expensive the world was going to turn into right. And so if you buy into a system that's built 50 years ago, it can't. It doesn't even know how to adjust to the world we're living in, and the last 5 years alone, with the start of the pandemic changed everything. It changed
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Cacha Dora: world economics, it changed businesses, it changed. How we work right like the being remote or like.
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Cacha Dora: I only knew, like 3 people in my life who were remote before the pandemic, because everything was so on site, and people saw the light of how effective things could be when you did it different.
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Cacha Dora: And so many of these businesses haven't taken the time to look at things differently, and they want what's comfortable. And the problem is, when you want what's comfortable for you you exclude. We have this conversation about excluding right? You exclude a lot of people in your business in your life.
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Cacha Dora: and that exclusion means that now
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Cacha Dora: you're losing things.
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Marion: Yeah, yeah.
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Cacha Dora: And
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Cacha Dora: you know I'm I don't know.
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Danny Gluch: What you're losing is productivity.
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Cacha Dora: I'm not.
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Marion: You're not productive. You're not making money.
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Cacha Dora: Talent right like how many, how many businesses that are that rigid
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Cacha Dora: lose top talent because they don't want the rigidity they love the job. They love the people. But and I know that this there has to be a study about this somewhere. But this is purely anecdotal from years of working.
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Cacha Dora: When people start disengaging at work.
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Cacha Dora: the thing that keeps them. There is the people.
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Marion: True.
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Cacha Dora: It's their coworkers
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Cacha Dora: they'll be disengaged. But what makes it worth? It
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Cacha Dora: is the people that they work with, and when that stops working
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Cacha Dora: they're gone, or they find the thing where they like, you know, can still stay connected to people that they that they've grown close with. But they leave because everything else is too much.
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Cacha Dora: I don't know if there's a study around that, if not people listening, please do this because I think I can name a million businesses, the stories, the same.
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Marion: Well be. You could pull up a hundred journal articles. I'm sure that tie into that
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Marion: some way she perform again. None of this is rocket science is really basic. It's really obvious, you know.
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Cacha Dora: Well, and that's even what the article said. It's obvious when people are doing this, if you pay attention, and you know your people, you know, when people are starting to quietly vacation, and
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Cacha Dora: I would like to see a follow-up article
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Cacha Dora: from Corn Ferry
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Cacha Dora: around.
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Cacha Dora: diving deeper into the why behind people doing it, and like what the organizational cultures are that drive this and which ones prevent it.
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Cacha Dora: I would love that article that would be fantastic.
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Marion: Yeah. And I'm sure it's not industry specific. But it's certainly, you know, be organizational choice. Right?
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Danny Gluch: One of the questions I have is.
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Danny Gluch: what what are we wanting to fix like? Let's let's say we've noticed this happening. Are we wanting to fix the quiet part.
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Danny Gluch: or we wanting to fix the the the need part, like the.
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Danny Gluch: Cause. I I honestly think it's just the quiet part like we.
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Danny Gluch: we actually should be encouraging these people to be self-aware. Enough that like, yeah, you need separation from work. You're trying to get a break.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: It's the quiet part of like. Yes, go take your break like I I really think, Marian, when when she kept bringing up trust all episode long like, that's I. I I wanna see more research into just like, how do you flip that switch.
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Marion: Yeah, I mean.
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Danny Gluch: To make it so. They don't have to do this quietly, and they can just get the breaks they need.
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Marion: You know you, you know you hear me see this all the time
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Marion: we talk about chicken and egg psychological safety, organizational culture. Right? The more
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Marion: I live and research, and all of the things psychological safety is the
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Marion: foundation of everything cause that's a compote, I mean trust, is a component of that right? And with that, that's what gives you a healthy organizational culture, right? Cause cultures bliss
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Marion: tangible because it's so many things right? Whereas you know the notion of
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Marion: trust.
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Marion: and, you know, allowing people to again giving them clear parameters to work within and let them do how they work best. That's where the sex safety really comes in. So for me.
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Marion: that's the basis of it, and that prevents the whack-a-mole situation. Because if you just start to do that. Well, if we just tell people that they can take their leave. But we don't really address other things. You're starting to play whack-a-mole right? But when you really get to the underpinning of the the company's.
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Marion: you know.
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Marion: perspective and and action on trust and psych safety. That's where the magic happens now. That's easy to do when you're in a startup.
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Marion: and you understand that going in. And so you can build that from fairly early on right.
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Marion: But if you'd a.
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Marion: you know, 20,000 employee company that's humongous. And you know, we know that the bigger the the this the cruise liner, the bigger the.
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Danny Gluch: Order, tank.
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Marion: The longer it takes to correct right.
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Danny Gluch: But also the the clear parameters, that little box. It's harder to define those in the startups, so be because W. Oh, we don't have anyone who's ever done that before. W. Would you mind taking on that role? Get starts to to make that box fuzzier and and you get more of that whack-a-mole stuff like.
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Marion: I would I would disagree, I would disagree. I would say that if you stay up with the right intentions.
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Marion: That that doesn't have to be the case. Now, again.
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Marion: there's so many nuances to that right. And it's not Utopia, and there will be things that are fuzzy. So you're not wrong. But if you really go in with the right intention and always think, okay, how am I making this a clear parameter for people.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: Do you.
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Danny Gluch: No, no, i i i totally agree with you. I just like you're right. It's just extraordinarily difficult to do, and you can't always predict. Oh, my goodness! The industry shifted, and we don't have 6 months to hire for this role. And now we just need someone to do this role. We need to rewrite someone's job description, asap.
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Marion: And that's absolutely true. Right? But again, that's not. That's just an operational thing that's not affecting psychological safety. Right? You know, it's just having that real intentionality
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Marion: and always asking yourself, Okay, I'm gonna take this action. How will this amp? How will this impact people.
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Cacha Dora: Yup, and I think on that note, too, Marian, I think.
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Cacha Dora: to answer your question, Danny, as well about like, how do we kind of fix this. I think the other thing that we do have to.
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Cacha Dora: Organizations really need to take a better lens at their managers.
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Cacha Dora: because their managers are the ones who are touching base with their people, who would know if the person needs a break and a lot of managers.
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Cacha Dora: I feel like I will die on this soapbox. At some point
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Cacha Dora: managers are trash at conducting one on ones at touching base with people. And the problem with that is that if you're only focusing on the deadlines, the projects. Where are you at with this? Where are you at? With that? Have you improved your communication skills? Whatever the heck it is that you're talking about. If you're only looking at the checkbox items
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Cacha Dora: you're missing the person that you're talking to, and when you miss.
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Danny Gluch: Might be, but quite vacationing.
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Marion: Yeah, exactly.
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Cacha Dora: Exactly. Yeah. And so like, I think that that's another missing component of just the
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Cacha Dora: the problems project of of organizing it better is.
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Danny Gluch: Said.
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Cacha Dora: Get better at your one on ones, and you might not have this.
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Danny Gluch: It's almost.
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Cacha Dora: We're.
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Danny Gluch: And episode about this.
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Cacha Dora: Wild. Right? Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Late.
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Marion: I know, but.
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Cacha Dora: There's there's like, there's a reason I'm gonna dial that. So plus. But it's because of the fact that, like people just disengage when they aren't seen and heard.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: It's a it's, it's goes back to trust. It goes back to treating people like people. And at the end of the day it's common sense, you know, if you want the best of people, treat them the best.
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Marion: Yeah, that's it. And you know it. It's not.
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Cacha Dora: So it's very simplified, but still.
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Marion: It is fairly simplified. But th, there's that's the thing that they there's just
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Marion: if we can get some of these basics right.
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Marion: the rest of it will start to take care of itself. It's really that simple.
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Marion: So yep.
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Cacha Dora: A good domino effect when treated properly.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Well, on that note I need a break.
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Marion: There's a lot.
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Danny Gluch: That was that was really good. I i i hope we can just continue to to have this conversation and really dig into to what's causing things like this and help people come up with practical and creative solutions to to trying to to turn their ship around, as as Marian likes to use that analogy. So thank you all for listening. Be sure to find us on Linkedin. You can email us at Elephant at the Fearlesspom.
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Danny Gluch: Thank you very much. We'll see you next time.
