The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
Bonus Episode - Oh Shit What's Happened Now? SHRM Drops the E Bomb!
Join the roundtable discussion held by the Performance Innovation Collective and The Fearless PX on July 18th, 3-4 PM Eastern. Panelists Adam Horn, Jennifer Laurie and Catalina Coleman will be featured, co-moderated by Danny Gluch and Elena from PIC. Sign up here!
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- You can find all episodes of The Elephant in the Org here.
We encourage you to subscribe and leave a review if you found this episode enlightening!
From April 2024, all new episodes of The Elephant In the Org will be posted bi-weekly.
Music Credits:
Opening and closing theme by The Toros.
Production Credits:
Produced by The Fearless PX, Edited by Marion Anderson.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are exclusively those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations’ official policy or position.
EP 30 Bonus - Oh Shit (SHRM)
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Danny Gluch: Welcome everyone to our bonus episode. Oh, shit what happened brought to you by the elephant in the org? I'm your host, Danny Glutch. I'm joined by my co-host, Cacha Dora.
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Cacha Dora: Hello.
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Danny Gluch: And Marion Anderson.
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Marion: Good morning!
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Danny Gluch: Oh, shit! What happened, Marion?
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Marion: Oh.
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Marion: well, what a week it's been!
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Marion: A lot of shits happened this week, but I think the one that stands out the most is SHRM, and they are surprising announcement that they're making a rather radical change as to how they look at
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Marion: Dei or Ied is apparently it was being called which was completely unknown to me. But yeah, let me read a little bit of the announcement that that went live 2 days ago. And then we can get into why, the entire Hr community are up in arms.
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Marion: but effective immediately. SHRMF( will be dropping the acronym.
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Marion: I and D.
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Marion: Oh, sorry, adopting the acronym I and D, instead of IE. And d.
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Marion: The strategic decision underscores our commitment to leading with inclusion as the catalyst for holistic change in workplaces and society.
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Marion: While we shift to Ind, our commitment to advancing equity remains steadfast.
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Marion: Equity will be integrated under the broader inclusion framework continuing to be a priority in our strategy and leadership decisions. Now, the whole
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Marion: spiel is a lot longer than that, but the general context is no more equity.
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Cacha Dora: But yet we're prioritizing it. How can you prioritize it if you get rid of it?
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Marion: You know.
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Danny Gluch: They're strategically deprioritizing it.
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Cacha Dora: We also strategically lobby with our government. So there's that, too.
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Marion: Yeah, I,
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Marion: I, I don't know about you guys. But the other, morning, I, just logged into linkedin, just to catch up on the
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Marion: the workplace chat and was like, Why is everyone got their knickers? Not here? What's going on? And then saw the SHRM thing? And I was like, Oh, shit like what.
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Cacha Dora: It’s a rarity to see the HR community so catalyzed and up in arms simultaneously.
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Cacha Dora: which tells you that they are not only
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Cacha Dora: concerned for the people that they support in our businesses. But also they're just running around what the fucking like. They're just like, what what did you do. And why and why didn't you, you know, maybe pull other people instead of thinking, this is strategic when it's tone deaf.
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Marion: Yeah, I I mean, like, I don't know about you guys. But I have read so many incredible posts from people in our community people that we're connected with, and actually people that I wasn't connected with. But I am now
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Marion: and you know there's some really standout commentators that have just.
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Marion: you know, not held back and and really kind of express how upset and this solution that they are with us. You know. I
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Marion: I
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Marion: I'm just like I'm scratching my head. I'm I'm really, you know, stumped by.
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Marion: Why, why, now, of all things, I mean right before an election, it seems bonkers to do something like this, and when you know the fans are flamed so much already.
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Marion: you know. Sorry the flames are fine and get my words back to Frank's. I'm tired, but you know the it's so.
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Marion: People were already
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Marion: hyper, agitated and sensitive. And
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Marion: why would you do this? You know why.
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Cacha Dora: I think one of the things that really also stood out to me from reading those posts, Marian, and I'm so glad you pointed out that there are some amazing thought leaders that are speaking about this right now. But what a lot of people in the Dei community
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Cacha Dora: and in the Hr. Community have been also pointing out is that they made this announcement. SHRM made this announcement
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Cacha Dora: on the National Black Women's Equal Pay Day.
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Cacha Dora: which I think really underscores.
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Cacha Dora: Why, it's so important to have the E
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Cacha Dora: in DE, or DEI in B, or anything like that
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Cacha Dora: and the fact that it it also then underscores that tone definite, like all of the things that people
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Cacha Dora: are are speaking about. Because why would you make an announcement on a day that's so significant for people in this country.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: See, i i i
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Danny Gluch: I disagree a little bit on the tone. Deaf part
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Danny Gluch: and and here's why I think this was strategic.
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Danny Gluch: and I think this is a great example of strategy. That is just bad.
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Danny Gluch: It's it's just aimed at a goal
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Danny Gluch: that most people just disagree with. It's not like, oh, we're kind of aligned with equity, and you're just tone deaf to announcing this on a day because they clearly don't have that day on their calendar right.
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Danny Gluch: Don't. Otherwise they would have seen it and been like, actually, let's do this tomorrow. It's no, their goal is just different, and they can say they want to like
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Danny Gluch: strategically progress, equity underneath inclusion. But what they're really wanting to do is whitewash. The fact that inequalities exist. And now that there's a moral imperative for us to create a more fair, a more just society.
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Danny Gluch: I think this is actually a response to the the sort of groundswelling of wanting to add something like justice to DE. And I.
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Danny Gluch: People were were starting to really buy into the idea
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Danny Gluch: that we're not just
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Danny Gluch: doing inclusion. We're not just doing diversity, but we're trying to right previous wrongs that were written into law policies and procedures that affected individuals and groups of people in really really bad ways.
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Danny Gluch: And and that was coming up. And I think this is in a response to that saying, no, that's not what we're doing here, and it's a way to protect privilege, and that's just what it is. So I don't think it's tone deaf. I think it's just bad.
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Marion: Well, the irony isn't lost on me that. Firstly, when did it stop being Dei? Wh. Which confused me? And you know me. I've always.
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Cacha Dora: Sort of my master's program. You don't have colleges, you know, like grad programs that are good. No one is saying de no one is not saying de.
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Marion: Exactly no. Who who is who is seeing Ied, and also the irony. I've clearly been watching way too many military.
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Cacha Dora: Right. I.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Ad that I was like, yeah.
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Marion: Empty-.
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Cacha Dora: Want.
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Marion: Improvised explosive device. I mean, yeah, any of that alone is.
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Cacha Dora: There are notes we kind of did act like that. But that's that's that's not. That's not the way to do it. See what's interesting, Danny, with your point on. And I 100% see your point on how it was strategic, but just
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Cacha Dora: in the opposite direction of progress, right.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: But you know what I've been thinking the whole time when they kept talk when they were saying this is strategic, was, how many times have you worked with and or for someone
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Cacha Dora: where they
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Cacha Dora: they think that they have the best ideas in the room, and they're bad.
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Cacha Dora: but they need to be at the center of the announcement pit, if you will.
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Cacha Dora: and that's all like I've been thinking about while like.
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Cacha Dora: because they thought this was the hottest idea, and everyone else is like.
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Cacha Dora: sit down.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Marion: yeah. I you know, flicking through Linkedin, like, obviously, in terms of the commentary. You know, a lot of as you said, Kush are really great thought leaders, and WI think we should take. We'll definitely share some links to some of the.
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Cacha Dora: 100%.
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Marion: Yeah, this idea will pop them in the show notes, because there's so many good ones. There's also some really great memes. I'm not gonna lie one posted yesterday. Hepba Yusuf, who I love her content. Is a picture of a building on fire which is labeled SHRM, and then a picture of a kid kind of smirking, looking at the camera which says modern Hr leaders, which just got me cackling. Because the
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Marion: I think we've been seeing this for a long time, that a lot of our kind of pre professional bodies and I'm not just talking about SHRM here, but there's there's many others that can be included in that statement.
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Marion: but just
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Marion: out of touch.
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Marion: and
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Marion: not really addressing the elephants in the room ironically.
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Marion: And you know, we've we've talked about this a lot where we've sat on, you know, in, in in conferences and virtual events and things like that, and being kind of flummoxed by the the fact that
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Marion: the hard questions are not being addressed, they're being talked around and they're being kind of swept under the carpet, or they're just being ignored.
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Danny Gluch: Or they're being put up with masked head, you know, sort of meaningless statements, or or.
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Marion: A.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: It's for.
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Cacha Dora: Or or the the Se. The sessions. Actually, the title sounds like it could be a good thing. And then you go to it, and then it's it's misleading, right? It's.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: It's the opposite.
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Marion: Yes, it's the the that version of clickbait, I guess. So, you know, I I actually just really hope that this
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Marion: kind of outcry which.
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Marion: gosh, I you're right. I've never seen our community kind of like really stand up and and get
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Marion: as animated about anything as they are about this, which is incredible, but I hope that this galvanizes a a much
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Marion: more conjoined, and, you know, sort of solidified approach to
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Marion: how we really move things forward because
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Marion: we're talking. You know, there's a th. There's a lot of people that have great ideas, and it takes a village right? You know, we have to gather and be a collective and gain momentum, and really try and push the envelope. And I just don't think anymore that
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Marion: that that Shrm or in the Uk, we have the cipd you know. I I just not sure that that that
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Marion: these guys are really doing that for us. And maybe there needs to be something else.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: yeah. I mean, they were. They were born out of the old school administrative. Hr, check boxes. On the side of the business, and I don't think that they were built to sustain the switch to strategic Hr. On the side of
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Danny Gluch: the people.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, the people in conjunction with being business. Savvy? Right? Cause when you're really leaning into administrative, your Danny spot on it's check boxes. It's keeping the lights on.
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Cacha Dora: And when you
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Cacha Dora: you try and blend those core fundamentals of being progressive
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Cacha Dora: with
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Cacha Dora: just kind of yeah, like you, you got your blinder. You got your blinders on. Kind to to all of that like you. It's a mismatch, right? You're gonna swipe left and swipe right, or whatever the thing is, I don't know, but I mean just go in the wrong direction.
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Danny Gluch: Yasha, I think you really nailed something there, and this is a deeper conversation, I think.
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Danny Gluch: but I really do think it's like a square peg round hole
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Danny Gluch: and I'm I'm not surprised that they, you know.
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Danny Gluch: ship whatever they sundowned or killed off Equity
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Danny Gluch: because there was something that just wasn't missing, and it was. It was affecting businesses, and it was affecting our industry, talent, acquisition, and performance management are struggling, I think, partly because there's some mismatch, and I hope that really really smart people can get paid money to get in a room and really do a post-mortem and figure out where this mismatch was because there was some kind of half measure done in trying to enact equity
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Danny Gluch: that just. But we were still hanging on to something in the old sort of business sense or way of doing business that just made nothing work.
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Danny Gluch: And and I think we've been feeling it for a number of years now, and
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Danny Gluch: and and it makes me not surprised that they made this decision rather than the decision to hey? Maybe we should look at our outdated business practices, and maybe those aren't lining up, and equity is actually a good thing. It's it's not surprising they made that, hey? Our old business practices are probably fine. Let's get rid of equity.
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Marion: Yeah, I mean, I mean, you know, fundamentally, it's a rebranding exercise, right? There's.
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Cacha Dora: That'd be one that people learn about in college in 10 years, about how not to do it.
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Marion: Well, maybe. Yeah. But I mean effectively, that's what it is. And I don't know if you guys have read, there's a
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Marion: one of the the sort of lead invoices that I certainly read. A lot of his stuff is large met.
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Cacha Dora: Thinking about him earlier. Yeah.
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Marion: Yeah. And he, you know he has a great quote, and his sub stack article about this taken from
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Marion: torn and Ellis, and regardless of the acronyms involved in vogue or hopscotching of letters as torn and Ellis framed Hr. Practitioners must remain steadfast in their commitment to building companies where all employees are embraced and given opportunities to grow real progress and use on substantive actions can't speak, and policies, and not just rebranding efforts to create workplaces where everyone genuinely belongs and thrives. I mean.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: Yeah, in. In another thought that occurred to me.
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Marion: When I was kind of thinking about
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Marion: the differences between, you know, Sharon or Cipd, and some of the the newer progressive kind of collectives that are coming through like our friends at the open org. Pkr, you know.
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Marion: with SHRM and the Cipd. Those qualifications are very much focused on the individual. The practitioner.
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Marion: you know, does the qualification. They have the letters after the name, and that's fine. But that puts all of the focus on that person.
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Marion: And what I like about particularly open org is that theirs is very much focused on the organization rather than it being the person. Yet the the you know, the the Hr person is obviously the conduit to make it happen, but it's about the organization's approach, and that
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Marion: when you really think about it through that context, that's how it should be. Because when we just focus on it being the practitioner, the responsibility and the expectations all fall on that person.
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Danny Gluch: Match with their actual authority.
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Marion: Exactly, completely. And so you have this constant, you know frustration where they know what needs to be done, but they're not allowed to do it.
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Marion: And you know.
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Marion: unless you've got a really progressive c-suite CEO,
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Marion: it's like pushing water uphill. So
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Marion: there's, you know, I think, that that there does need to be a radical shift, and how things are done, and how these things are approached, and it needs to be less about the individual and more about the organization generally.
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Danny Gluch: That's such a great point, Marion.
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Cacha Dora: It really is, it really is.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: It needs to.
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Marion: And that's without having coffee.
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Cacha Dora: You know one of the things that stood out to me, and I've seen a lot of these posts on Linkedin, because that's where a lot of this discourse is happening.
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Cacha Dora: at least from my perspective. And and where I've been looking the last couple days.
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Cacha Dora: has been people, you know how like, when you you see a new job announcement. Or, you see people
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Cacha Dora: saying that they've they've been accepted, or they've gotten a certificate.
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Danny Gluch: The little celebration.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Thing, yeah.
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Cacha Dora: You're seeing people celebrating that their SHRM license, not licensing certifications. Yes, thank you are expiring like the the opposite of what you would normally be really excited to announce, and having them be ha! Be cheered on by their peers.
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Cacha Dora: And
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Cacha Dora: while it's not, it is going back to that individual as opposed to the organization. Marian.
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Cacha Dora: I think what is interesting is the group think that's happening
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Cacha Dora: in this moment together on what? What is important to celebrate what is important to highlight.
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Cacha Dora: And and it goes back to not just what's important, right? But like, it's also kind of
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Cacha Dora: showcasing the people in Hr. Who aren't there to check the boxes? Who are there for the people?
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Cacha Dora: And and I think you're completely spot on. I think it's going to shine a light. Into
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Cacha Dora: what organizations should you be certified in, and why.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: And
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Cacha Dora: you know, just like in a lot of other ways in the world, you know, people will no longer buy a product from a certain company because of x reason.
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Cacha Dora: I think it's going to. It's putting a very stark light in the Hr. Community on where you put your money, and why? As an individual. And you know, then, going back to your organization and saying, Hey, will you cover this right like for professional learning and development, or whatever.
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Cacha Dora: But I it.
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Cacha Dora: I've never seen that happen before.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Where they're celebrating that it's lapsing, or that they're not going to renew their membership and.
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Marion: And these, these things are a lot of money, and they're a big time investment.
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Cacha Dora: Right.
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Marion: And and we talk, we've again, we've talked a lot on our main podcast. Just about the importance of.
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Marion: you know, a formal learning program
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Marion: for professional. So we do have consistency and credibility quite frankly. But
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Marion: I wouldn't. You know, I I've kind of thought about doing my kind of us based qualifications. Because I mean, you know, I've Mcipd accredited. Obviously I have a master's and you know, a a almost half a Phd. Under my belt, you know, all in this area.
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Marion: and I kept thinking maybe I should get these letters after my name. But honestly, after this.
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Marion: I'm not sure.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: But the no, I wouldn't do it, because it's so far removed from where I am. As a people, professional.
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Cacha Dora: It, it.
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Marion: What's the point?
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: well, there's a ton of great commentary out there will definitely add some links to, you know some of the the really amplified voices.
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Marion: That are, you know, really getting to the heart of the matter and sharing their thoughts on Linkedin, will definitely include them in our show notes.
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Marion: But
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Marion: Danny.
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Danny Gluch: Time.
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Marion: Yeah, I think it's I think it's time.
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Danny Gluch: Well, since we are all saying goodbye to Equity, it's been taken out to the woodshed.
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Danny Gluch: Set off to the farm. It's time for a eulogy.
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Marion: Oh!
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Danny Gluch: Equity.
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Danny Gluch: I'm truly saddened to say goodbye.
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Danny Gluch: Sometimes I wonder how you ever got invited into capitalism. In the 1st place, though.
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Danny Gluch: when I'm being optimistic. I like to think that it wasn't just tokenism.
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Danny Gluch: but that one of the insiders saw who you really were behind the glasses and the messy hair, and knew that you could make capitalism better for everyone.
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Danny Gluch: Tokenism or not. You made waves wherever you went.
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Danny Gluch: Remember the time you championed pay transparency leading to fairer wages and closing the gender pay gap in so many organizations.
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Danny Gluch: Those were the days.
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Danny Gluch: remember.
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Danny Gluch: remember, when you tried to get rid of the boxes that forced convicted felons to self-identify on job applications.
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Danny Gluch: You really had the best ideas.
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Danny Gluch: but, like so many of our brightest stars, Marilyn, Monroe
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Danny Gluch: Heath, Ledger.
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Danny Gluch: and Napster.
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Danny Gluch: your flame has been quenched too soon.
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Danny Gluch: You, though, were not just a solitary flame in the night. Your message boldly spoke of the inequalities of reality, and a hope of a more just future that sparked passion and fanned the flames of work. In so many who are here today.
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Danny Gluch: You may be gone.
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Danny Gluch: but the inequalities remain.
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Danny Gluch: and therefore the work must go on
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Danny Gluch: in a way. You were like that last blockbuster video in Bend, Oregon, who persists
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Danny Gluch: a relic, a visage, a beacon thought lost to time, but kept alive by those who understand the dire importance of the torch you carried
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Danny Gluch: rest in peace, equity.
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Danny Gluch: No
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Danny Gluch: know that your spirit endures, and there are many Torch bearers.
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Danny Gluch: Thank you.
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Danny Gluch: I half laughed, half cried, through that.
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Cacha Dora: I had.
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Danny Gluch: And know how to end.
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Marion: I don't. Well, do I?
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Cacha Dora: And do we just leave it on that.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I, think we, I think we.
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Marion: No, no cause. We do have something important to share. And and we are co collaborating and co-hosting
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Marion: Round table session
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Marion: with a bunch of our peers next week.
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Marion: and I, you know we would invite anyone who's listening to to join that session. It's going to be incredible.
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Marion: The fearless Px and collaboration with
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Marion: the performance. Innovation
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Marion: collective. There'll be a round table happening on July 18.th It's between 3 and 4 Pm. Eastern and this roundtable will be moderated by our own Danny as well as Elena from
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Marion: pic. But we there's some great people sitting on that panel, including our friend Adam Horn, who of open org
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Marion: Jennifer Lori. She's a chief people officer at Startout, and has been a real leading voice in the last few days around this area exactly, and also Kathleen Coleman, who is co-founder and CEO of Peak, Hr. Again, another leading progressive voice in the Hr space, so we will add the sign up link in the show notes as well. If anyone wants to join, we would love to see you there.
