The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
Oh Shit, What Happened Now? Bonus Episode: "Alexa, Define 'Workplace Flexibility'... Amazon Style"
Amazon's return-to-office mandate (sort-of) shocks the tech industry!
Join The Elephant in the Org for a pre-season special as your favorite Fearless PX trio, Danny, Marion, and Cacha, analyze this game-changing decision.
Is Amazon redefining workplace flexibility or taking a step backward? We're dissecting this 5-day in-office requirement, covering:
• Debunking the myth: Does in-office presence really build company culture?
• Remote work vs. office work: Impact on employee productivity and job satisfaction
• Hybrid work models: Are they the future of work?
• The great return: How will this affect work-life balance and employee retention?
Plus, we'll brainstorm ideas for all that office space. A coworking hub for Amazon sellers, perhaps?
If AWS can operate in the cloud, why can't Amazon employees?
Don't miss this data-driven, witty exploration of the corporate bombshell that's reshaping the tech workplace.
Mark your calendars: Season 2 of The Elephant in the Org launches Wednesday, October 2nd!
Tune in now and join the debate.
Inspired by: "Working in the office 5 days a week to build company culture is a myth, PwC report says" - MSN Money
You can find the show notes here:
Connect with Us:
- Follow The Fearless PX on Linkedin at The Fearless PX
- Visit our website for more content and updates: https://www.thefearlesspx.com/
- Reach out to Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlessp.com
- You can find all episodes of The Elephant in the Org here.
We encourage you to subscribe and leave a review if you found this episode enlightening!
From April 2024, all new episodes of The Elephant In the Org will be posted bi-weekly.
Music Credits:
Opening and closing theme by The Toros.
Production Credits:
Produced by The Fearless PX, Edited by Marion Anderson.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are exclusively those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations’ official policy or position.
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Danny Gluch: welcome back to the elephant in the org everyone.
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Danny Gluch: Oh, shit, what happened. Now, our best friend andy, jassy, is the never ending source of oh, shit! What happens?
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Danny Gluch: Oh, my goodness, okay. So, starting next year, all Amazon employees gonna have to be returned fully in office and not just any office like the main office 5 days a week, and we got this news.
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Danny Gluch: There's a ton of articles out there, and we we just knew we had to get together and talk about this because it's
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Danny Gluch: ridiculous. And this is Marion's area of expertise. So, Marion, what what the hell is going on.
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Marion: Oh, man, I honestly like
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Marion: it's
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Marion: you know, here's the thing, and I, you know I spoke to a few contacts that are former Amazonians, and, you know, wanted to get their opinions on it, too, and
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Marion: everyone has pretty much the same thing to say about it. Amazon spent a lot of money on real estate.
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Marion: and they have all these gorgeous offices. And
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Marion: they're damn sure gonna make sure people are in them.
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Marion: and
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Marion: you know, I I understand that, I guess. But you know that kind of veiled yeah. One size fits all
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Marion: diatribe about, you know, it's for our culture, and we work better together in Yadda Yan.
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Marion: You know that that
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Marion: kind of thin layer of logic has been disproved time and time again, and
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Marion: one of the articles that I looked at
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Marion: that was originally in Fortune magazine, and we'll share the the links in our show notes
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Marion: refers to really interesting study by pwc.
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Marion: which got me excited. Because obviously, this is plug and play right into my own research. But you know, it really does highlight that
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Marion: it's kinda nonsense. This perception that being together 5 days is in the best interest of of everyone, and it makes us more.
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Cacha Dora: We don't have like.
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Marion: That's completely debunked.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: So
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Danny Gluch: They're just doing the the monkey covering the eyes like, we're not looking at that data. That data obviously doesn't matter.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah. And we talk. We've talked about gosh and ill multiple episodes. I feel like at this point. It kind of feels like we're, you know, talking the same story, which means people aren't listening to us. That's not the point. The point is,
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Cacha Dora: the real estate thing. Marion, I think, has real real teeth, because so many places pre pandemic, you know, biz business leases are 5, 1020 years long sometimes.
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Cacha Dora: And so these these real investments, these businesses are like. Well, if we allow, if we allow
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Cacha Dora: everyone to be remote, we're now losing this investment that we could not have foreseen. But there's also that aspect of inflexibility and lack of autonomy. And you can't have those 2 things and then talk about your company culture like they're connected
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Cacha Dora: because autonomy feeds into your company. Culture.
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Danny Gluch: Well, so does in autonomy, and like like.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, it does.
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Danny Gluch: Really, what they're going to get is inflexibility, and they want subservience. They they
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Danny Gluch: in the articles, they say, you know, in their their press release. They say they want to to function like a startup.
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Danny Gluch: to be, you know, to be nimble, to be lean, to, you know, to be really like innovative.
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Cacha Dora: Startups don't have campuses.
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Danny Gluch: They!
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Marion: Start.
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Danny Gluch: Oh yes!
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Marion: Startups, startups work principally from home, so that that reference in itself is absolute nonsense. Now.
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Marion: personal belief, I believe that enterprise, organization organizations should
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Marion: think more like startups. They should think more about being nimble and agile, and really reevaluate their processes because they are slow and they are cumbersome, and they aren't necessarily fit for modern day purpose, or are cross range of generations in the workplace right?
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: You know, a lot of the solutions are using. Enterprise might be good for Gen. X's, but they certainly don't work for Gen. Z's right. So.
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Cacha Dora: And then they also don't work for people who require accessibility aspects that they need.
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Marion: Wow!
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Cacha Dora: You know what I mean? Like there's I mean, but.
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Marion: That's true.
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Cacha Dora: It's the machine I'm gonna use. The air quotes. The machine of enterprise is not built for disability.
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Marion: Really is. And that's that's
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Marion: something that I experience daily, right? And it's very personal to me. So
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Marion: I understand that completely. I
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Marion: you know
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Marion: the research
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Marion: again. We didn't need a crystal ball to know this was gonna come. We saw this from day. Dot hybrid is the way forward.
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Cacha Dora: It is.
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Marion: Yeah, fully remote, can be difficult. I know that. You know I love being in in the office a few days like I love that bouncing off people and building those relationships, especially doing the jobs that we do right.
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Cacha Dora: Right.
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Marion: Strong interpersonal relationships. And you do build that more when you're in person. That's a given fact, or you maybe build it faster in person.
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Marion: But you know.
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Marion: we're also trying to counterbalance complex lives. We're trying to counterbalance.
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Marion: you know, are things exactly like that, like disability, like having children or animals, or being caregivers to seniors or juniors, or whatever.
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Marion: And we also know that we all have our own different rhythms. Circadian rhythms, working rhythms, you know I work best. 1st thing in the morning, anytime after 3 o'clock. I'm useless, right? I'm because I'm
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Marion: I have chronic fatigue. I'm exhausted by then 7 am. I'm bright as a bar brush, and I can get stuff done right?
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Marion: So you know.
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Marion: we have to be tuned into that to be more productive to get more out of our people to help them feel more supported and hybrid as a solution really does do that. And the Pwmc research proves that overwhelmingly, something like what 74% of employees say that they're more productive by working hybrid, something like that. If I remember correctly.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, they they gave so much quantifiable data. I'm really curious to see what the full Pwc report looks like. Cause. Obviously, the articles just extrapolating a few pieces
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Cacha Dora: that are relevant to the article. But the the thing that I also found really interesting in talking about this return to office, and his reasoning is company culture.
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Cacha Dora: and
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Cacha Dora: thing that is so interesting is the articles also talking about and we've also talked about it, too. Right? When the pandemic hit, people were so excited to be remote, and then eventually they got tired of being remote.
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Cacha Dora: and because this is such a new phenomena, people are writing about it regularly. So there is a lot of data to look at to see. How does it not just make people feel? But how do people actually work through the process? Are they efficient? Are they not efficient?
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Cacha Dora: And that hybrid aspect helps company company culture, because people can feel like you were just talking about, right included, involved like they belong.
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Cacha Dora: And it's really hard
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Cacha Dora: to say, well, it's for the company culture, when.
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Cacha Dora: as as the as this train is going forward, the data is following it so. And there's more and more that snowballing some of these these studies are 18 months long. Right? So like.
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Marion: Yeah, yeah, I mean.
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Cacha Dora: Time.
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Marion: I, you know I I was reflecting on this the other day I was thinking about us actually.
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Marion: and obviously we all used to work together. And for 99.9% of that time we were remote. We were virtual. And we're as close as can be. Right. We built rapport. We built really good bonds. We worked excellent together. Our culture was vibrant. You know, the psychological safety was there.
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Marion: So
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Marion: you know, okay, that's like a very micro example. But that is the same. Over and over and over and over again. Right? You give the people the right tools and the right methodologies in the space
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Marion: that naturally happens. You know, I I know an abundance of people who their teams are distributed right. Their teams are are maybe even in different states, different countries.
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Marion: They have an incredible micro culture within their teams because they they make it work right.
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Cacha Dora: Time and effort into it. You know it's not. Just follow this install this. You have a culture.
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Marion: Exactly it it that isn't. And there was a really in that that article that Fortune article is a really interesting quote that I loved
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Marion: from
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Marion: Dan Van Rossum, who's author of future work, Newsletter and founder of Flexos.
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Marion: and he says the office becomes a crutch, engagement, recognition, and connection, all happen by default.
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Marion: When companies move to a hybrid schedule, they start implementing more purposeful efforts to replace this engagement
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Marion: in the process. The hybrid experience actually leads to improved engagements with more touch points.
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Danny Gluch: You know, I think that's that.
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Marion: Sweet Shit, Sherlock.
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Danny Gluch: That's the exact thing that that I've been trying to to say for for a long time is the little call out Cards! And you know, whatever they want to call them the you know the recognition cards that they put on the cork board in the break room. No one reads those
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Danny Gluch: like they. They just don't. They're there, and you can write it out, and it can feel really good, and you can put it on the board. No one reads them.
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Danny Gluch: But when you actually create a slack or a discord, or a teams channel that's made for that, and everyone gets notified.
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Danny Gluch: Oh, my goodness like it's, it's an actual process. And if you're thoughtful and intentional about your processes that you put in.
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Danny Gluch: it's actually a lot better than the in-person ones that you're like, oh, we're just we're just gonna expect our bonding to happen organically, because we're in the same space. And then everyone's glued to their monitors, and maybe they run into each other at the coffee station, and they say, Hi! How was your weekend like?
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Danny Gluch: That's not the same as actually spending 30 min to get to know your real people and understand what's going on in their lives so that you can function
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Danny Gluch: really well together, because you all know what's going on, and you know where I can flex. And I can step in so that you can do what you need in your life.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: Well, I mean
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Marion: just adding on to that point, Danny. You know the majority of our workforce are now digital natives.
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Cacha Dora: Hmm.
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Marion: Right. So sticking a bit of paper up in a cork board
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Marion: is a weird alien concept to them because
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Marion: they've never done that. They've always done things by text or by, you know, instant message, or by Snapchat, or whatever right.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: Yeah, having.
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Cacha Dora: Have communicating by gif is a native language.
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Danny Gluch: It truly is.
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Cacha Dora: You know, and.
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Danny Gluch: I honestly think it's. You know it's more culture building to be able to have the the memes and the gifts that that happened digitally and can be repeated. And things like that. That's much more what culture is than sitting around and talking about. Oh, did you guys watch game of thrones last night like that's not actually doing anything but like when you run into someone face to face and you don't really know them.
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Danny Gluch: it becomes small talk, and it's it's very bland. And if you want your culture to be bland
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Danny Gluch: and
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Danny Gluch: not personal, great, you've done that because that's what you get around the coffee stations, the water cooler.
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Marion: Yeah. And that's true.
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Cacha Dora: And I think I don't know I'm I'm getting really tired of hearing all of the all of these very large large businesses.
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Cacha Dora: That people look to model themselves after in one way or another, using company culture as the crutch.
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Cacha Dora: Because
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Cacha Dora: because Marion, to your point, culture doesn't come from a mandate
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Cacha Dora: right? And
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Cacha Dora: and, Danny, you talking about like what happened there? There are some offices that get the the coffee talk stations
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Cacha Dora: down. And actually you have great conversations there. There are some that really do feel like it's out of office space. So like.
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Cacha Dora: you know, it really kind of depends. But it company culture is the crutch. What it was. There's so many other things that it really talks about, that, I think, are a lot more negative of origin, right where it's it's really just coming back down to at the end of the day. They're gonna create a framework around the fact that they have a lease.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: And because, like one of the other, quotes in this, I think it comes to it Marion from the article. This is by and evolve CEO,
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Cacha Dora: Sandahar, Sandhar, having the autonomy to make your own decisions, does more to enhance a culture of valuing employees rather than diminishing it. No one wants to be controlled in a rigid environment. So forcing people back into a workplace workplace can feel like control.
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Cacha Dora: and there, there's a whole bunch more to it. But really it comes down to like.
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Cacha Dora: if you've got that vision for your culture's organization.
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Cacha Dora: what does that vision look like? And how do you message that out? How many layers do you really need to go through
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Cacha Dora: to make that vision come through instead of just come to office and we'll figure it out. Once you're back.
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Marion: Yeah, that's true. It really is. And
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Marion: you know.
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Marion: this is, this is
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Marion: been a phenomenon the whole time since we've kind of been post Covid, but nobody wants to travel to the office to sit in meetings, the majority of which are Zoom calls right.
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Cacha Dora: But if you're together you're doing the meeting together, it's a totally different thing.
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Marion: But if your teams are distributed, you're not together right.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, you're right?
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Marion: So what is the point? If there's only, you know, 2 people in the meeting room, and then everyone else is in different states or different countries
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Marion: actually just done that at home and been a lot more comfortable. And I've again not have you know, gone through the thing of getting to the office and then being on a zoom call where I'm not interacting with anyone in person, anyway, like it's
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Marion: it's bonkers. So
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Marion: hybrid is the way forward. Trust in our employees is the way forward. You know.
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Marion: not trying to to
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Marion: bully shoehorn people into, you know. A rigid way of thinking is not the way forward and
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Marion: you know, when I when I take it back to to Amazon, you know
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Marion: they were for the longest time one of the the gold standards of where
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Marion: people in the tech industry wanted to be employed. They paid well. They had great culture, they had great, you know.
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Marion: both. You know things that made you want to work there right all the extras. And now
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Marion: it was. But that culture is gone down the toilet, unfortunately, and when I think about it from a talent standpoint
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Marion: oh, gosh! I mean the talent market for tech has just been nuts for the last. If you look at it over 5 years, if you go a bit more kind of macro and look at it over a longer period of time. It's been mental, you know. Up then we all over hired, then down, and then it was terrible. And now it's kind of going up again.
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Marion: and
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Marion: there's still a lot of available talent in the marketplace. But there's a hell of a lot of talent sitting out there that are quite quitting, or whatever we're calling it this week, right?
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Marion: Because they're they're they're in situations where they're they're being kind of
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Marion: held hostage.
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Marion: And you know it
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Marion: as soon as they see something that is more aligned with their values, but also their needs. They're going to go. And we already know that they're going to go for less money because money isn't the driver anymore. People value different things. And we're still yes, we all want money, and of course we want to be paid our worth without a doubt.
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Marion: But we're also willing. And research shows this. We're also willing to take that down a click, to be able to have the other things that are more important to us, and and that's only increasing as as the generational balance shifts.
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Marion: So it's a very short sighted view.
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Cacha Dora: I was about to make a comment about that, because I think to your point, Marion.
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Cacha Dora: as the the workforce generations start to shift, and the balance is is tipping in other directions.
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Cacha Dora: There's something that I think people leading are the companies that the big companies aren't really realizing. And that's that other generations value mental health way more than the income than the the ones that are currently leading all of these boards. And they're gonna make decisions that are disruptive to keep themselves healthy and sane, and they'll take the less pay they'll take the shorter commute.
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Cacha Dora: because what's worth it to them is spending time with their kids, spending time with their dog being outside.
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Cacha Dora: Not putting out a whole bunch of emissions in a 5 h, commute, or a train ride, or whatever the case may be, their mental health is going to be way more important to them than the prestigiousness of a particular name of a company that they're working for, and
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Cacha Dora: it opens up a whole door into like well, what is then? Total compensation? Look like? What a total rewards look like, cause. It's not just your pay that people are starting to pay attention to. And I think that we'll start to. We're starting to see that we've seen it right like, when we have the great resignation and all these new terminology things to explain the market in the last 5 years. Really, the Covid market truthfully.
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Cacha Dora: But I mean, like I I'm with you. I think that hybrid is the way forward.
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Cacha Dora: I see the benefits on all sides. I also think hybrid plus flexibility.
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Cacha Dora: I think that's really the thing. Like, if you're gonna be in office 3 days a week, cool. But for some people that might be Monday, Tuesday, Thursday. For some people that might be Tuesday through Thursday, or you know what I mean like these different days of the week. What is it? What's that flexibility look like for you?
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Cacha Dora: And when you add the hybrid, and you add the flexibility. Suddenly that company, culture.
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Cacha Dora: engagement.
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Cacha Dora: feeling of belonging all of these things that we in the people space look at as serious metrics are going to rise because people then, are what they feel valued.
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Marion: That's true, that's true. And just just going back to you mentioned you talked about disabilities earlier on.
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Marion: I guess this might be a difficult Stat to find, but I would be very interested to see in these organizations where
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Marion: these mandates are really being forced what the the number or the increase. Potential increase on Ada requests are
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Marion: because, you know, when you remove that flexibility. You may have a disability and not feel comfortable talking about it.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: You had flexibility, you were able to just completely manage
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Danny Gluch: Now you have to make a demand.
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Cacha Dora: You feel it's forcing exposure on people who wanted that
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Marion: It is.
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Cacha Dora: I can't think of the word.
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Danny Gluch: Self manage, and now they they can't self manage because they're being.
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Marion: That's right.
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Danny Gluch: Into a call.
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Marion: And not everyone feels that they're able to self advocate. And I had this conversation recently with our friend Greer. I talk, you know we were talking about the ability to self advocate. And I'm at a stage now in my career and my maturity, where
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Marion: I can self advocate for my disability
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Marion: marrying 10 years ago would not have been able to, and would have suffered greatly if I had the same physical challenges that I have today.
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Marion: So when I think about other people in a similar situation, whether it be physical challenges, you know, mental health challenges whatever.
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Marion: If you can self advocate or you're in a situation where you don't feel psychologically safe to self advocate.
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Marion: I mean, all this is gonna do is is again put you in that performance. Slump
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Marion: and force you to quiet, quit, and go down organization where your needs are going to be met. So
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Marion: you know, it's a very, very, very, very short sighted approach. It's really sad. It's such a sad turn of events, but I still believe we've said this all along. I still believe that the tide is going to turn. It is turning. The revolution is happening.
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Marion: And as soon as the job market starts to ease up again, and there's more roles. Watch out your talents.
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Marion: Well, I kind of feel like we've covered everything. But I mean we've never, ever really covered everything. There's so many things that we could. We could go on about this for days. And you know I'm living in this model because it's my Phd research. But,
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Marion: Amazon, do better be better. You know your people deserve better.
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Marion: That's it.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, pay attention to the reports that are coming out. Read them, give them credence.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: Remember, if if you're the world's biggest data, driven company, use data.
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Danny Gluch: Yes, thanks everyone for listening to the Oh shit! What happened? Hopefully, we we learned some lessons on how to avoid that unforced error of forcing people to not have the flexibility and autonomy that they want and need.
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Danny Gluch: Be sure to follow us all on Linkedin. Click subscribe. You can email us at elephant@thefearlesspx.com.
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Danny Gluch: and we'll see you guys next time
