The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
Psychological Safety or Bust: Why Companies Keep Getting Wellness Totally Wrong
Employee wellness programs are everywhere, but are they actually making a difference? In this episode of The Elephant in the Org, Danny, Marion, and Cacha tackle the big questions about workplace wellness. From flashy perks and meditation apps to the critical need for psychological safety, we’re breaking down why so many wellness initiatives fall flat—and what companies need to do differently.
💡 Highlights from this episode:
- Why wellness programs often fail to move from intent to impact.
- The role of middle managers as the unsung heroes (and burnout victims) of workplace wellness.
- How return-to-office policies are taking a toll on employee health, especially for those with disabilities.
- The toxic trap of hustle culture—and why it’s time to let it go.
- Practical steps to embed well-being into your organization’s culture all year round.
📢 Special Mention:
Marion shares details about her Ph.D. research on psychological safety and return-to-office policies. If you’re U.S.-based, work in the knowledge sector, and have been with your employer for six months or more, we’d love for you to participate! Help shape this critical research by completing the survey here: https://lnkd.in/gsNm9BKC
Join the Conversation:
How is your workplace tackling wellness? Are the efforts impactful or just another checkbox exercise? We want to hear your stories!
Articles Referenced:
Gallup: Despite Employer Prioritization, Employee Well-Being Falters
HBR: How Carewashing Alienates Employees
🐘 Let’s keep addressing the elephants in the org.
Connect with Us:
- Follow The Fearless PX on Linkedin at The Fearless PX
- Reach out to Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlesspx.com
- You can find all episodes of The Elephant in the Org here.
We encourage you to subscribe and leave a review if you found this episode enlightening!
From April 2024, all new episodes of The Elephant In the Org will be posted bi-weekly.
Music Credits:
Opening and closing theme by The Toros.
Production Credits:
Produced by The Fearless PX, Edited by Marion Anderson.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are exclusively those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations’ official policy or position.
S2 EP 6 Transcript
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Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the elephant in the org, everyone. I'm Danny Glutch, and I'm joined, as always, by my co-host Cacha Dora
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Cacha Dora: Hello!
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Danny Gluch: And Marion Anderson.
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Marion: Hi.
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Danny Gluch: And ladies, building on our conversation last week about
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Danny Gluch: employee feelings, and how organizations can impact that
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Danny Gluch: we are gonna dig into wellness, how employees feel overall and how organizations
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Danny Gluch: impact that do they can they should. They eke
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Danny Gluch: because it's a tough one, like employees. Wellness like overall well-being.
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Danny Gluch: How much does it really lay on the shoulders of organizations.
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Marion: Hmm, so let's just call this elephant out for what it is. Right is our wellness programs. Again, the fur coat with the no knickers or are they actually are they actually well intentioned? But
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Marion: there's no feasible way to make them happen. I think that's that's the elephant, isn't it?
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Danny Gluch: The actual like actualization of these things.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, just because they exist. How do you make them live themselves out and play out and be utilized and leveraged and
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Cacha Dora: actually have an impact that maybe the people who spend all the time doing the research to make them get started.
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Cacha Dora: You know, they they can't push the the rock forward they need. They need a lot of people to help push that rock.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: I mean, it sounds like so many of the different sort of
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Danny Gluch: human resources centric initiatives, whether it's, you know, inclusion or disability or anything it's it's really going from
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Danny Gluch: intent and strategy to impact is is tough.
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Danny Gluch: But specifically, let's bring this back to to the well-being like, what what even is employee well-being. How are they measuring it? And how are organizations
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Danny Gluch: trying to boost employee, well-being.
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Marion: Think it's definitely got more
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Marion: you know there's more to it than there was maybe 1015 years ago, you know, back in the day when employee assistance programs were launched. They were like revolutionary right? Because up until that point employers attitudes to anyone's kind of issues were suck it up, Buttercup.
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Marion: and
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Marion: and then, you know, Eap started to come in, and we had a lot more focus on the wellness of our employees.
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Marion: Although we did fall into the trap of a eap, just becoming a Band-aid for any.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: Way problem that an associate or an employee would have.
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Marion: they have become more detailed. Now where there's more emphasis on other areas that connect to well, wellness. Not just psychological support, financial support, all of that kind of stuff. So we've definitely improved.
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Marion: I think the Gallup article does a a good job of highlighting the fact that so many employees don't even know if they have these resources like they. They don't know if they have them. If they do have them, they've never used them.
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Cacha Dora: Find out on day one, and you're already fire hosed when you started a new company. So like if you're told right at the beginning. And it's
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Cacha Dora: and that's it. Like, yeah, you can't. But the
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Cacha Dora: to your point. It does come back to what people retain.
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Cacha Dora: cause it could be in their packet, and it's like you've got a meditation app, and you can get discounts at the gym and.
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Danny Gluch: Application apps. Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Like
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Cacha Dora: tha that that's been a that's 1 of these things of like, you know. Well, intended? You know we're gonna help you manage your wellness.
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Danny Gluch: Here's a meditation app like that, just.
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Cacha Dora: Well, I think what's interesting is, and I've seen it in you know, especially through this year, having gone through unemployment looking at all the employer offerings that people have in companies. That might be part of that. Like what I think, Marian, I think it's like, was it? I'm assuming it's part of that total compensation. Total rewards. Kind of wheelhouse
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Cacha Dora: but there's companies that will offer meditation apps that will offer actual like therapy apps like, I think, like betterhelp or something like that. You've got ones that give you gym reimbursements, or just straight up like you get $150 every month towards this, and it's all meant to package in.
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Cacha Dora: It's this isn't like, you know, your insurance. We're giving this to you. And for a lot of, I think, especially as the generations in the job market change people are paying attention to those things as an added benefit.
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Cacha Dora: But also it doesn't matter if they don't know that they're there when they really need them.
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Marion: Yeah, I mean, some companies don't do a good job of that. Others do. Others do like have it on their Internet and talk about it and stuff like that. But I don't know. For whichever reason.
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Marion: I have no clue of data, right? You know.
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Marion: utilization and utilization would vary from company to company, based on how much they talk about it, how well publicized it is! How much employ employees trust it. Cause. I remember for the longest time one of the barriers to eap was, Oh, well, I don't want to tell someone about my marital breakdown, or whatever, because I don't want that getting back to my boss right, which.
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Cacha Dora: And now Eap has a weird rep of people just rolling their eyes at it.
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Marion: I know which is such a shame, because, you know, I know I've used it, and.
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Cacha Dora: I have, yeah.
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Marion: And we.
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Danny Gluch: Table.
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Cacha Dora: That before, and it's it's had real benefits to me. But again, it's just one component right
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Cacha Dora: levers on that.
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Marion: Yeah. And I think wellness goes a lot beyond just the psychological, which in, I think, in organizations, it tends to lean heaviest into that.
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Marion: you know. Let's let's cut to the chase here, right? One of the things that we've talked a lot about our Rtos and how they are impacting wellness and accessibility and inclusion and stuff like that. You know.
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Marion: I'm a perfect example, right of someone with a disability who is absolutely more
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Marion: it's it's tiring for me, and it's it's can trigger, flare ups for me with the additional commute back and forward to to work. Now I'm fortunate that
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Marion: you know I'm taking care of really? Well, so you know, I can manage that, but not everyone has that care from from whoever they work for from their employer. And so I think that wellness in that respect is definitely
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Marion: being overlooked.
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Danny Gluch: Haven't.
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Marion: A blind eye turned to it. Not quite sure. But you know the Rto. Thing is an absolute shit show.
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Cacha Dora: I think the other thing, too, on top of the Rto. Marion. That I think
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Cacha Dora: I think, probably is where a huge part of the disconnect disconnect comes from between the employer and the employee.
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Cacha Dora: Is what?
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Cacha Dora: Why are you needing things for wellness? Is it your personal life? Is it your work, life? How much of your work impacts your personal health.
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Cacha Dora: And how much is there like of that? Acknowledgement
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Cacha Dora: of hey? Maybe you work in a really stressful high pressure, high stakes, environment.
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Cacha Dora: We know that this job
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Cacha Dora: could impact, you know. Like, if if you're you've got a lot going on, we need you to speak up so we can like, keep these projects going like, you know, that kind of conversation
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Cacha Dora: of actually expressing where your wellness is at in regards to your workload and your job. I think.
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Marion: Excuse me.
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Cacha Dora: That's where it falls. I think employee work is stressful. Life is stressful. Anything we do has some modicum of stress
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Cacha Dora: needs between the each other. Right? Right?
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Marion: I mean, we you know, we don't live our life in boxes, right? Everything is is bloody. And what impacts us in work impacts us outside of work and vice versa. So I think that you know employers are definitely getting wiser and understanding that they are employing the whole person warts, and all right. And I think that that's generally well understood, but
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Marion: honestly
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Marion: calling out, I think there's just a massive disconnect between the well intention of. Let's have these great wellness and health programs to support our employees.
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Marion: But the reality of the day job still needs to happen. There's still numbers that need to be hit. There's there's sprints that need to be done on time. There's whatever you know your business is.
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Marion: and the 2 don't necessarily match up.
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Marion: I'll give you an example. You know I I heard someone talking about this the other week where
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Marion: a call. I think it was a department thing where they'd sent out a message saying, Hey, you know, in order to support mental wellness, we're not taking meetings between. It was like.
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Marion: I think it was like 11 and one or something.
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Cacha Dora: Hmm.
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Marion: And I was like, that's lunchtime, like, like what you know.
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Marion: And I thought the initiative.
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Marion: The idea is right. But what we're just blocking off lunchtime like for meetings.
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Marion: Bloody should be blocking off lunchtime for lunchtime right.
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Cacha Dora: Right, yeah.
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Marion: I also find that a cultural thing in the Us. Y'all don't give a crap about booking meetings during lunch times, and I I get really offended by it. I'm like.
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Marion: you know, I need to eat, and I need to not be in a meeting for 3 h across lunchtime like, why do you think
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Marion: that's, you know? And I'm finding this a cultural thing, and that would never happen in Europe.
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Cacha Dora: Well, I also think it. I think there's a huge part of the fear that Americans tend to have around the fragility of their relationship with their employer.
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Marion: It's true.
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Marion: It's true.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I mean, that's.
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Danny Gluch: you know, we we talked about this in the last episode, that that feeling of stability, right like the the emotional experience of stability doesn't exist very strongly.
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Danny Gluch: And you want to like that's an impact on well-being. It doesn't.
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Cacha Dora: I'm getting.
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Danny Gluch: Talked about like you, you know, we we talk about like oh, the the money like oh, you have to be like taken care of and and have that like. You know what most employers do? That fine and
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Danny Gluch: I think one of the the things that is really impacting isn't the amount of money. It's the security of how how long can I trust this until there's another round of layoffs.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Because now it's even if companies are doing well, you're having record profits for a quarter. Your company could still have layoffs.
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Marion: Oh, yeah.
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Danny Gluch: And like, that's it's things like that that I
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Danny Gluch: I think there needs to be a deeper, like philosophical change in some organizations to really address the well-being. If that's where some of the lack of stability and well-being is coming from.
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Marion: Well, yeah, you know, there's a lack of psychological safety, right? You know. So that's why people are booking these meetings over lunchtime. And that's why muppets like me are going to them, because there's a lack of psychological safety to say no, I'm not doing that, you know.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: And so you know, we, we we fundamentally know that that's that's a massive piece. Cultural is huge here. Now.
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Marion: I find that
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Marion: really hard to wrap my head around because we talk a lot about burnout. We talk a lot about wellness. We talk a lot about psychological safety and all of that.
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Marion: And yeah, we still perpetuate the actions. That make those things more even more of an issue. Which is which is funny. And why is that? Well? Because.
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Marion: again, the business still needs to produce targets need to be met, whatever. And who is it that's responsible for making those things happen.
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Marion: It's the middle manager, right? And so
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Marion: does the middle manager have the psychological safety or the clout quite frankly to just turn around and say
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Marion: so. We won't be doing a meeting over lunchtime.
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Marion: the Big Boss, because I'm going to take lunch for my mental health so we can schedule before or after, not
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Marion: not gonna say that right? Of course not. So you know we're not.
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Marion: We're disconnected. We've got great intentions, and I think that there's stellar products out there to support employee wellness.
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Danny Gluch: But, man, we're just not setting them up for success at all. Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Our middle manager has the weight of the world on their shoulders. They like, you know, like truthfully like when you look at the landscape of a business, and how much is asked.
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Cacha Dora: and how much support is given.
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Cacha Dora: that is not an equal scale.
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Marion: Yeah, definitely.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, and like looking at the the Gallup article
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Danny Gluch: and seeing where well-being discussions, or, you know, discussions that could be considered about employees.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Like who who are employees saying that they're having these discussions with and
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Danny Gluch: love eap. They were at 2%.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Who.
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Cacha Dora: The and the delta between your manager or supervisor and your coworkers.
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Cacha Dora: Not a big delta realistically.
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Danny Gluch: It's it really? Yeah. So the the majority of these conversations for those who haven't gone to the article link in the show notes.
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Danny Gluch: It's the most. Most of these conversations are happening with the managers and supervisors, and then a little bit below. That is their peers.
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Danny Gluch: And I think this is something that gets lost in remote work. Is that accessibility to peers? Because you don't schedule one on one times with your peers. And if you're not really intentional, or your job doesn't naturally lend itself to collaboration.
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Danny Gluch: You might not
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Danny Gluch: have a lot of time. With your peers. That isn't like specifically like project based where you can just be like, Hey, also, this is happening in my life right now.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Which.
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Cacha Dora: That's a valid point.
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Danny Gluch: Which leaves one on ones. And what do we know about one on ones?
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Cacha Dora: They're poorly structured, and they don't really work.
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Danny Gluch: And it's really easy for it to be project updates, hey?
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Danny Gluch: To meet these numbers right? It's we need to hit hit these numbers these metrics like, let's focus on those. And then what doesn't get talked about.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah. Well, being personal development, professional development, anything. The whole person, part of the conversation, not the deliverable part of the conversation.
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Marion: Yeah, you know the the article does a good call out where it talks about the integration of well-being into those conversations. Right? Those one-to-one conversations. And you know again.
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Marion: that managerial muscle that we're developing in these junior managers. We're not teaching these things. We're not teaching right
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Marion: to have bring wellbeing into the conversation. And it, you know, the article calls out this, only 36% of employees say they've talked to their manager or supervisor about their personal wellbeing and conversations between coworkers, and even less frequent at 29% right? So making well-being much more of a
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Marion: an open discussion point, obviously where it's practical and and where it's
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Marion: appropriate. Right? You know, people can have serious things going on. You don't want everyone and their granny knowing about that. But you know you do want to
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Marion: cultivate that sense of safety between you and your manager at least, where you can share when you've got something going on, and feel psychologically safe to say, Hey.
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Marion: I might need time off. I might have surgery. I might have this might have that, or I'm burning out, or whatever right and again, we're failing our employees and our managers by not supporting them, to have those conversations by giving them the tools in their toolbox to have those conversations. And I think also that can get more complex
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Marion: with multicultural teams. You know, again, some cultures are more comfortable, more likely than others to to share things like that. And it's not even just cultural, but that can often, you know, certainly play a part to it as well. So
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Marion: it's definitely complex.
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Marion: But by not talking about it.
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Marion: and by not more importantly, by not facilitating it.
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Marion: the environment to have true well-being.
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Marion: Then we're just continuing to churn out something that's performative. Quite frankly.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, cause it's it's it's the soil. Isn't there right for it to stick?
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, it's just not there.
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Cacha Dora: Well, and I think it's so interesting when we you know, we've had a lot of different conversations on these kind of support mechanisms that
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Cacha Dora: entry level middle manager.
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Cacha Dora: assistant level roles within the managerial landscape could use. And we've talked about things like psychological safety. But I also think, especially when we start talking about well-being, that component of emotional intelligence is so key. And it's not just like, Oh, do you have your listening skills right? Like all these like nice, nice little hot words that we come across. But
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Cacha Dora: you have to
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Cacha Dora: be able to identify and recognize things with an empathetic lens and a lot of managers right? And a lot of people, everybody. They only know their own lived experience. And so they might miss the things that their employees are actually asking them for.
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Cacha Dora: because they don't know what that means.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: Hmm.
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Cacha Dora: And I think a lot of middle managers get stuck like
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Cacha Dora: maybe not being able to ask for help from someone else.
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Cacha Dora: But that role in an employee's well-being is so key. And if I think for managers
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Cacha Dora: there, a a struggle is either a do. I know the right resources? Is this business offering the right resources and like
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Cacha Dora: how much of their role is like helping on someone's projects, not just the resources, right? And like not just the workload. So it really is that fine balance of not just the whole person, but the whole work product that they're being asked for at the same time. And that's why I said that that balance those poor, that that line of defense in the organization is is slippy, slippery.
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Marion: I've been thinking about this a lot recently, because I've been thinking about
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Marion: how much work you get done in a day versus
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Marion: what the expectation of how much work you get done in a day is.
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Marion: And you know
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Marion: I had some some things I, you know, been working on and needed to get done, and just had no.
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Marion: there was no possibility to get it done, because my day was just jam packed. My days were jam packed.
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Marion: and I'm like I have that internal discussion. Well, do I work on it at the weekend at home? And I'm like.
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Marion: why should I?
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Marion: Why should I feel that I should work on something outside of regular hours at home, because I don't have enough time during the week.
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Marion: It's not my fault, you know. So like.
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Marion: you know. And again it comes back to that conditioning. Right? Yeah. And and if we don't really have honest conversations about this stuff.
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Marion: it's never going to change. And we can do all the great studies and burnout as we want, and we can provide all of these great tools. But again, if we don't solve the underarching issue, we're just going to keep going in circles
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Marion: quite frankly.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, you know.
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Danny Gluch: I I definitely think that you know the way organizations and teams and individuals do. Time is a big part of well-being that just doesn't get talked about. And yeah, the the what's expected, and it may be even needed versus how much time is actually allotted and given to do. That kind of work is really problematic, and
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Danny Gluch: time is one of the like. The the. It's a finite resource, and it's the same for every every company, which is kind of cool. It's a very equal playing field, and how different teams manage! Time is so fascinating
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Danny Gluch: because so much ends up getting wasted when you do things like pivot and pivot becomes this big like buzzword, and everyone's like, Oh, it has to be, you know, flexible and adaptable to change. And you know what's the resilient with ambiguity or or handling ambiguity right? Like you need to have that here because we pivot and change all the time. And it's like
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Danny Gluch: how much time actually gets wasted
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Danny Gluch: when you're constantly doing these pivots. And we just spent months and hours and and days on in one direction, just for someone to say, Oh, now, here's this other thing.
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Danny Gluch: and like
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Danny Gluch: that, that's just a waste of time, and people don't like feeling like their time was wasted, and I.
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Cacha Dora: Very stressful, Danny. That is very stressful.
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Danny Gluch: And that right when we talk about waste and stress, well-being scores are gonna plummet
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Danny Gluch: because people don't like feeling like their time was wasted, and they really really dislike the stress of not having enough time.
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Marion: I mean.
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Cacha Dora: Also security, too. You talked about safety earlier, I mean.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Marion: there, there's a lot in that, though it's not that you know the world that we live in. There's always going to be change. There's always going to be need to be pivot. There's always.
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Cacha Dora: Percent.
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Marion: Need to change directions. That's just that's just life, right? And so we have to be able to roll with those punches.
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Marion: I think, though, that there's some really interesting
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Marion: perspectives on these things. I I read a Linkedin post last week where someone was quoting
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Marion: our favorite Elon Musk where you know it was. You should basically, that the subtext of it was, you know, you should work all day every day to achieve your goals. If you're, you know, if you're driven, if you want to make things happen, that's what you should. That's what you need to do. And
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Marion: and if you don't do that. Then you don't care right, and I'm like.
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Danny Gluch: Really.
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Marion: Is that
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Marion: I mean, I'm all for working hard to achieve your goals. I think we all work pretty damn hard right between
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Marion: education, Phds masters
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Marion: podcast run a consultancy, full time jobs like, I think we all work pretty damn hard. But I think that we also recognize when we have limits, and when we feel burnout coming, and we know when to to pull the emergency cord right?
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Marion: And I think that when I hear those types of very old school. Perspectives perpetuated. It's really unhealthy and
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Marion: I don't think encourages
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Marion: younger, you know, employees in their career journey. It doesn't support them to have the psychological safety to speak up when they do feel overwhelmed and feel under pressure.
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Marion: I think that there's
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Marion: I also think that we're about to see a real upsurge in those types of behaviours and that type of narrative. Just given how
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Marion: our environment is shaping up at the moment, you only need to look at Linkedin to see some very
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Marion: toxic type comments starting to appear where people are talking about future of work and
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Cacha Dora: Stuff.
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Marion: Like that. So.
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Danny Gluch: Those beliefs right? When those beliefs, those those claims, are allowed to exist, they they shape
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Danny Gluch: our like idea of what could be true. And it says, Oh, it, you know, maybe not for me. I like balance. But yeah, it could be true for someone that they are constantly working. And that's okay. Right? Just just that. That hint that it could be true. And if it's not pushed back on, I'm like immediately. No, absolutely not. That doesn't work for anyone. Eventually, that person's going to implode. Yeah, if it's.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Back on it lingers there of like, hey? Maybe that'll be true, and it shapes our culture and our expectations. And like, when we talk about, you know, digging from the ground up and changing the foundation
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Danny Gluch: whenever we see things like that, we can't let them just exist.
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Danny Gluch: There has to be a pushback immediately
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Danny Gluch: of Nope. That's not true. Get that s out of here because.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: It's it's poisoning the well, it's that's what it's doing.
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Cacha Dora: And I think, Oh, go ahead, Marion.
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Marion: Yeah, I was just gonna say, like, in my executive coaching work. You know, one of the things that comes up a lot with senior leaders
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Marion: through all walks of industry is well, the more senior you get.
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Marion: the bigger your work load is.
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Marion: and the more you have to be able to delegate, or whatever which is true. Right, like delegation, is critical. But
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Marion: you know there's a
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Marion: ingrained belief that the the more senior you get, the more work that you have on, the more you have to be able to to churn out and like, just because you've you've
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Marion: you've progressed in your career doesn't make you any less fallible to having a mental breakdown and to burnout, and to all of these things, and nobody should be crawling on their hands and knees towards retirement for the last 20 years of their career. Right? That's absolute bullshit. So I think that we do have a very unhealthy.
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Marion: deeply ingrained belief system.
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Marion: Around the quantity equals.
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Marion: I don't know. The quantity equals the the seniority or something like that, but it's nonsense, right? It is nonsense. Everyone, regardless of where they are, should have a workload, regardless of what that work is. But it should be manageable and doable, and they should be able to excel in it, and not just be completely left to the wolves. So we have some very unhealthy, deeply ingrained beliefs.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah. And I I think
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Cacha Dora: just to kind of pull that apart a little bit more. I think a huge part of it is popularized in
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Cacha Dora: social media, the media in general film, books, biographies everything around. How impactful and how
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Cacha Dora: transformative hustle culture is.
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Cacha Dora: And if you are really a hustle, if you really hustle, if you work your 9 to 5 and you have your side job, that's really where you're trying to make money. And you're trying to do this. And or if you're working those 14 h days, you know
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Cacha Dora: I you will get here. And it's popularized so many places that I think that the belief perpetuates itself
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Cacha Dora: because it's in biographies that people are picking up. It's in self-help
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Cacha Dora: speakers talk about how, if you work hard enough, you'll be able to relax like you know, it's it's a it's contingent, right.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: That that belief has a huge contingency pivot.
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Danny Gluch: But it's it's also the the meme of the survivor. Bias with the airplane, with all the bullet holes in it
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Danny Gluch: on like, hey? Where should we reinforce this? Well, here are the the bullet holes of all the planes who come back. This is also an example of that of. No, you you don't have to worry so much about where those bullets hit, because that's showing where bullets hit a plane and the planes are fine.
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Danny Gluch: You have to worry about the bullets hitting the other parts that don't come back
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Danny Gluch: when people are sitting and and writing books and doing biographies. And they're saying, Yeah, it's because I worked this hard
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Danny Gluch: like, it's 1 of those opportunities to realize that like, yeah, there's a lot of people who work that hard. They're not getting biographies written about them because they failed like working hard does not guarantee just because it worked for this person.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: but it's also like. And it comes down to the wellbeing aspect like, there's also so many things that help people become successful that are outside of their control.
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Cacha Dora: like.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: You know, it could genuinely be luck. It could be being in the right place at the right time, and the right conversation having the right connection. Blah blah blah! But like
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Cacha Dora: at the end of the day.
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Cacha Dora: it doesn't matter how hard you work. If you are burning yourself out to a point where your well-being is on the floor
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Cacha Dora: like. And that's where I think
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Cacha Dora: that societal. Unfortunately, we all are attached to our phones. There's always gonna be one of those stories. It's gonna pop up a Tiktok and Instagram of Facebook.
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Cacha Dora: whatever like, you know. An article that's on whatever news source you're getting.
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Cacha Dora: Those are consistent. They're perpetual. They always pop up somehow.
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Cacha Dora: you know of, like a 22 year old, who's now a millionaire because they have this one thing, you know, like, you know, those click baity headlines and stuff. But I I think
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Cacha Dora: what's honestly like important is, well.
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Cacha Dora: you and your work are not the same thing.
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Cacha Dora: But you come into work as yourself.
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Cacha Dora: How much of you you show that's coming down to psychological safety and a whole other conversation. But you know that holistic mindset of like. Yes, it's work, but also like
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Cacha Dora: the work will exist without you. How are you doing.
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Marion: That's true, you know. Someone again, Linkedin comment. The other day someone posted and it just summed it right up, no matter how much you love your job. Your job will never love you in any way. Close back, right?
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Marion: I was like, beautifully put, because it's true, you know, like we all get a massive sense of achievement of what we do and I think enjoy.
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Marion: You know the day job.
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Marion: But at the end of the day
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Marion: cog in a machine right regardless and and
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Marion: you have to really take care of you, because if you don't.
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Marion: no one else can, no one else is gonna.
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Marion: And so I don't know. And I I again I go back to that that more.
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Marion: you know, junior manager, who doesn't necessarily have
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Marion: that perspective. Yet they've not necessarily had the opportunity to form that opinion yet, or understand how to
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Marion: effectively manage the workload versus the well-being of of their team.
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Marion: And that falls back on senior managers.
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Marion: people, teams L and D teams Od. Teams like that falls on us to equip them, to be able to do that, because again, the fairies didn't put a chip in their head right and teach them how to do that overnight like it didn't happen. So we have a responsibility to do that. And for me, that's the disconnect that's.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: Not happening.
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Marion: and you need unilateral buy-in to do something like that. You can't just do that in a silo. You have to have complete buy-in. And that's
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Marion: is that Utopia? Maybe.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I just, I don't think it's it's realistic because social media exists
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Danny Gluch: and everybody is on it like, there's, there's 2 things. One, I think there's this like the hustle culture that is so prevalent on social media.
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Danny Gluch: And also I'm seeing a lot more. Maybe it's just algorithm, very like anti work of like you shouldn't be happy at work. They're always trying to exploit you, and like, I think both of those are leading, you know, to a very like, how can you enjoy work?
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Danny Gluch: How can you say that? You you are? You are experiencing well-being if you're either like, never happy until you've reached like billionaire status, and to get there you have to hustle, hustle, hustle, or you should never be satisfied. Your your employee, you know, relationship with your employer is toxic, and you know your job will never love you back. There has to be some middle ground, right of like.
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Danny Gluch: you know. I I was reading on Linkedin, and someone was talking about. Look, we just want to
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Danny Gluch: exchange our time for work that we find valuable.
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Danny Gluch: and it pays us enough money for like
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Danny Gluch: to leave to live a good life. And it's like, Yeah.
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Marion: Yeah, psychological contract. That's it. I work for you. I do a good job. You pay me money. Right? That's it.
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Danny Gluch: And give me pay me another money.
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Cacha Dora: To live and be happy, not just like live and be
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Cacha Dora: a shell of a human being.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: Or
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Marion: yeah, or or you pay me enough to be a bit of a shell of a human being, and then I have to have 2 other jobs to.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, exactly.
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Cacha Dora: If it is.
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Danny Gluch: You pay me, but it's real.
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Cacha Dora: But it is not enough for me to live off of.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: You gotta have your side hustle right? Like that's there's just it's so complicated right now, because on on one way.
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Danny Gluch: you know, I think even that like live enough to.
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Danny Gluch: you know, afford a happy lifestyle.
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Cacha Dora: Is, is really affected by social media, and it's very subjective.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, it. It's a very subjective thing. And it almost like, when you think about how
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Danny Gluch: well is my life actually being able to live.
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Danny Gluch: Is also like a subjective thing like, look at. You know the past election, and there was so much. There was such a narrative about things not being affordable, and the economy being bad, but like a lot of the underlying numbers, were like, actually, the economy's really strong by a lot of metrics, and things
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Danny Gluch: are a little more affordable than they were 2 years ago. But like that wasn't the perception. And so everyone was really unhappy and like, Oh, things aren't affordable, but it just didn't match up with reality.
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Danny Gluch: And like, I kind of feel, you know, when when we're looking at the the wellness, you know that they were measuring in the article, and how it's like dipping down towards 2020. Again.
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Danny Gluch: I just I wonder if there's just this sentiment online that doesn't match up with reality, where people
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Danny Gluch: feel like they shouldn't be happy. But if we looked around and how we're living, maybe we should be happy. I don't know.
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Marion: I don't think it's uniform. We don't live, you know, our lives in complete symbiosis with others, right? Like, you know. And also perception is reality.
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Cacha Dora: You know.
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Marion: Some. That is their reality, because that's how they see life, and that is their experience. And who are we to argue against that? So like I,
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Marion: man, that's super complicated. And and very very heated topic to get into. But we're never going to achieve a uniform belief system in that. So what can we do like if we think of our roles as leaders, as employers? As you know, people, professionals? Well, what what can we do what is in our circle of influence.
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Danny Gluch: I mean I don't know the answer.
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Cacha Dora: It's.
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Marion: It was rhetorical.
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Cacha Dora: I know it's funny. I was like, I know, this is a rhetorical question, but the thing that immediately popped into my mind is, I think it will 100 come down to every different organizational culture and structure like, because what's within our wheel of like our circle of influence, our our power dynamics that we work in every day.
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Cacha Dora: Regardless of, you know, if you're a senior manager, a middle manager, a frontline worker, it's gonna come down to the business that you're in and what that business is about, because every business is different.
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Cacha Dora: and you're always gonna have people who have no qualms in speaking up for themselves. And you're always gonna have people who will be terrified to do so
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Cacha Dora: regardless of even if the environment says that it's okay, right? Because everyone's informed by their own life experience that comes into it. So I think the larger component is really just every single little business. And I mean little business. Whether you are a giant business or a small business doesn't matter.
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Danny Gluch: Oh!
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Cacha Dora: But it's gonna come down to those businesses. And
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Cacha Dora: because the bigger the business you get, you have multiple businesses within the business, the smaller the business you are.
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Cacha Dora: You could be a team of 10 people, and like everyone could fit in the same room
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Cacha Dora: to have a conversation. So it's always gonna come down to the individual business.
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Marion: Hmm!
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Marion: That's my answer to the rhetorical question. Cause it came up so loud in my head.
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Danny Gluch: I mean, I think that I think that if there was more of an emphasis
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Danny Gluch: of making well-being a part of the culture.
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Danny Gluch: as you know, it's not just oh, mental health, awareness month, but like
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Danny Gluch: having those sorts of like mental health campaigns
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Danny Gluch: as a constant part of the year, and it almost goes back to the the ritualized parts again of like, Hey, we're coming up with this season. Let's all prepare. How are we going to prepare? Because this season is going to be stressful. Hey, we're launching a new product. We know that comes with
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Danny Gluch: this set of of hardships. Let's all prepare together. I really think that
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Danny Gluch: doing things like that one can help just like the production and the work go. Better go smoother.
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Danny Gluch: But also, I think it could really help people's well-being because you're you're not just preparing them individually like we're we're not just siloed. That wellness app is not helping everyone unless everyone's doing it together
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Danny Gluch: right? Like it's we. We need to have it front of mind so that we do talk to our peers when it comes up and we talk to our managers.
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Danny Gluch: you know, and and I don't know what those like year long sort of like never ending campaigns really like look like when they're done well, but I know once a month or one month out of a year isn't enough.
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Marion: No, no, not at all. And and again, there's a a massive emphasis on mental health which is important. But there's so many other components to this.
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Marion: Yeah, many other things that impact burnout and impact.
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Marion: You know our physical health.
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Marion: That aren't even addressed or talked about.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, I think another thing to really contemplate going back to the Gallup article really quickly.
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Cacha Dora: Around the question of like, how do we create these things within the circle of influence that's not tied to mental health, not tied to some of the things people tend to focus on the statistics that Gallup gives also says that 28% did not talk to anyone. Slash none of the above. Well, people who talk to their coworkers. That was 29%. So a 1% difference between people who
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Cacha Dora: either maybe had talked to a manager which was a slightly higher percentage, but only a 1% difference between people who didn't say anything or didn't talk to anyone versus even talking to a peer. I think that's the thing. If we get the if we organizations and people, teams and managers and everyone cause it's not 1 1 piece in the business.
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Cacha Dora: Danny, to your point. Earlier it everyone has to be involved somehow. It's getting the people.
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Danny Gluch: And we have a 3rd of the people who just aren't talking. Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Correct.
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Danny Gluch: Like 27% is is, you know, effectively, a 3.rd
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Marion: Yeah. So I'm not surprised by that, though, because I, you know, and and also I think a lot of that comes down to the individual right like again. You've got things in your life that you
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Marion: are personal, and you don't want to talk about, and you don't want to share. Or maybe you come to work to get away from the
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Marion: fact that you're dealing with something else. So I you know I I whilst that number is important. I think there's a lot more to it. I think it's easy to take it at face value, and and maybe not think beyond the number. But
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Marion: your sentiment isn't wrong, right? It needs to be it takes a village. It needs to be unilateral. It needs to be part of the day to day part of the culture. It needs to be just something that's there and happens and is is normalized as opposed to, you know, being a 1 hit wonder twice a year that we're going to focus on our mental health, or whatever, because again, you do that
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Marion: it's performative, no matter how well the intention behind it is.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: I mean, it's honestly, I think. I I like cautious idea of focusing on that. You know that 1 3rd and including them, and, you know, inviting them to be a part of the culture. Right? It's that comes down to engagement, too, right like. That's
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Danny Gluch: one of the things that, you know I don't know. It's like a unicorn that organizations are always chasing. But if you can engage that 1 3rd of a person, or that 1 3rd of your organization. And you know you're creating more of a support structure, too. And I think that helps everyone's wellness.
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Cacha Dora: Even if they choose to speak up or not to Marion's point. But, Danny, I think that there's probably a huge well of people
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Cacha Dora: that don't feel engaged that don't feel like they belong, that don't feel like they have
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Cacha Dora: that it is just a job.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, why talk about it?
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, well, I think
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Danny Gluch: we've got some practical things for people to actually do. I like that. Also, you know.
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Danny Gluch: dig deep. Look at all those beliefs that are, you know, seeping into having you work through lunch and things like that, and.
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Danny Gluch: you know, find the psychological safety to speak up and say, Hey, you know I don't want to do that. If I don't eat and like actually take a break and do a lunch, I'm not going to be a very productive or enjoyable person for the rest of the day.
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Cacha Dora: Exactly, exactly.
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Marion: Yeah. And if we're having to compromise that time for ourselves, then there's something wrong, right?
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, it's definitely one of those indicators.
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Danny Gluch: Definitely.
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Danny Gluch: Well, any last thoughts feel like that's a good end.
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Danny Gluch: I think that was our last thought, Danny. There we go, all right.
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Danny Gluch: We got there. Thank you all for listening. Please feel free to find us on Linkedin or email us at elephant@thefearlesspx.com.
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Danny Gluch: Also in the show notes will be a link to Marion's survey for Phd research. Be sure to check that out. Any minimum qualifications Us. Based.
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Marion: Yeah, us based full time employed in the knowledge industry. So tech marketing, professional services, legal whatever and must have been with your current company for more than 6 months.
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Danny Gluch: Awesome, and are they allowed to share your link.
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Marion: Sure.
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Danny Gluch: Yes, so take it, share it with others. Yay, we're going to get the research. It's really important stuff. On return to office, psychological safety
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Danny Gluch: employee, well-being. Yay, all that good stuff. So thank you all for listening. We'll see you next time.
