The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
What the Actual Zuck? Meta, Masculinity, and the DEI Backlash
Mark Zuckerberg is back in the headlines—this time for claiming that workplaces need more "masculine energy"and blaming Sheryl Sandberg for Meta’s past DEI initiatives. But is this just another case of tech bro nonsense, or is there a bigger political and corporate strategy at play?
In this episode of The Elephant in the Org, Danny, Cacha, and Marion dive deep into:
✔️ Marion’s viral LinkedIn post on Zuckerberg’s comments—and the firestorm it ignited.
✔️ What “masculine energy” actually means in the workplace—are we just rebranding toxic hustle culture?
✔️ Meta’s DEI rollback—coinciding with Zuck’s meeting with Trump and Stephen Miller (not a coincidence).
✔️ The corporate trend—some companies like Apple are doubling down on DEI, while others like Meta and Amazon are backing away.
✔️ What this means for leadership, workplace safety, and culture moving forward.
📢 What do you think? Is this just another tech bro flex, or should we be worried about a larger rollback on inclusivity and psychological safety in the workplace?
🔗 References:
📝 Marion’s viral LinkedIn post → Read here
📰 HuffPost: Mark Zuckerberg’s “Masculine Energy” Comment Sparks Backlash → Read here
📰 Men’s Health: Zuckerberg’s “Masculine Energy” and the Workplace Debate → Read here
📰 Economic Times: Zuckerberg Blames Sandberg for DEI Initiatives → Read here
📰 Axios: Meta’s DEI Rollback & Trump’s Influence → Read here
📰 Politico: Zuckerberg Aligning with Trump’s New Administration → Read here
📖 Karen Warren’s Ecological Feminism → Read here
Connect with Us:
- Follow The Fearless PX on Linkedin at The Fearless PX
- Reach out to Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlesspx.com
- You can find all episodes of The Elephant in the Org here.
We encourage you to subscribe and leave a review if you found this episode enlightening!
From April 2024, all new episodes of The Elephant In the Org will be posted bi-weekly.
Music Credits:
Opening and closing theme by The Toros.
Production Credits:
Produced by The Fearless PX, Edited by Marion Anderson.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are exclusively those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations’ official policy or position.
Season 2 Episode 9
Title: What the Actual Zuck? Transcript
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Marion: 3.rd
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Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the elephant in the org, everyone. I'm Danny Gluch, and I'm here with my co-host Cacha Dora
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Cacha Dora: Hello!
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Danny Gluch: And Marion Anderson.
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Marion: Hello!
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Danny Gluch: And this week's elephant in the org is.
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Danny Gluch: Oh, boy! Another tech bro mishap by none other than Mark Zuckerberg, proclaiming that organizations sorry most companies need more masculinity.
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Cacha Dora: Ew. Oo.
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Danny Gluch: But before we dive in too much, our own Marion had a Linkedin post that got really popular on this topic. So, Marion, let's go tell us about the post and all the reactions.
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Marion: Well, I think the title I gave it was what the actual zuck
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Marion: and if anyone who knows me or people that listen. You know that I'm a big fan of the F bomb being Scottish. So it was pretty funny. But yeah, it was
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Marion: a lot of support for it. Obviously, you know, I'm just kind of pulling out the key themes of really is that where we are? Where, you know, we're promoting what could be perceived as a toxic masculinity like is that is that really where we've landed? And there's a lot of support for it. But it was also, a lot of not support unsupport is that thing?
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Danny Gluch: Happens when you go. Viral.
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Marion: It does, and gosh! Like people do like really enjoy the keyboard warrior type stunts.
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Marion: And there was all sorts of all sorts of perspectives and backlash, but.
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Danny Gluch: What was the funniest, or like the the craziest, most unhinged response.
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Marion: Oh, I need to check back, I mean, none of them were particularly unhinged, but it was more.
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Marion: you know. There was a lot of of males and females, which was surprising to me that thought that Mark was absolutely right, and there needs to be more masculinity in organizations. And
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Marion: it that the fact that it was a lot of women surprised me. But yeah, it was
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Marion: It's definitely the highlight of my posting week on Linkedin. Yeah, there's definitely some interesting people out there.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, reading, reading some of the comments. It was funny as a
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Cacha Dora: as a bystander, knowing you, Marion, and knowing how you think and and everything, and obviously, Zuckerberg's viewpoint being the antithesis of that reading people's comments that did agree with him. And then seeing other people reply back, being like, oh, poor! You like getting to kind of see this like interplay of people who agreed and disagreed together was it. It was very funny. It felt like theater truthfully
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Cacha Dora: but yet played out in a social network that no pun intended on that comment, but on a network that is supposed to be you know, for professionals and networking.
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Cacha Dora: One of the ones that I loved in there, and I think it kind of got buried. But
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Cacha Dora: someone said, masculinity should never be chest thumping boys, club toxic culture.
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Cacha Dora: And I think that that I was like yes, it should not be. Those things like you can be in your masculine or feminine energy and vibe culture. What have you? Whatever kind of moniker you want to give it without being what all of those things read to me, which is the word abusive.
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Cacha Dora: You don't.
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Danny Gluch: Have to.
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Cacha Dora: Abusive.
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Danny Gluch: And and I definitely want to want to get there when we talk more about what what they actually might mean by having more masculinity. Because if it's just, you know, males and testosterone like, I'm wearing a shirt and tie, I'm pretty masculine, but like
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Danny Gluch: it's it's gotta be there. They definitely mean something else. And and I want to get into that. Yeah.
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Marion: Yeah, I mean it. It was. I suppose it was fairly shocking to me. To hear or to read. Males say that they believe that the office is overwhelmingly feminine. And men have to force themselves to cater to women so as not to upset them.
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Marion: That that was a that was a Belter and yeah, someone else. I can't. I can't remember exactly the the full comment. But basically said, this is because there's so many women in Hr.
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Marion: Has met.
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Cacha Dora: Will get sued. Is that the subtype.
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Marion: Oh!
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Danny Gluch: You know it.
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Cacha Dora: Funny. I mean.
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Danny Gluch: I.
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Cacha Dora: That's the thought process of continuing that line of thought. It's not my opinion I'm trying to continue someone else's line of thought.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I mean, I think it's worth going into sort of like where we think the this is being influenced by right, both politically, socially. This is the kind of talk that you hear from a lot of people who listen to Joe Rogan's podcast not surprisingly, Zuckerberg was just a guest on Joe Rogan's podcast. I don't think that these things are unrelated.
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Marion: Well, this is where he's this is where he said that it was on his podcast. That he made the comment.
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Danny Gluch: Oh, was it really? Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Oh, well, I guess I guess I missed that part that makes so much sense.
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Cacha Dora: Already catering to an audience.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, he he also is, you know, visiting mar-a-lago and meeting with Trump and Stephen Miller. Who are, you know, very anti Dei. I wouldn't be surprised if you know he's got a little group chat with Elon going talking about some of this stuff.
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Danny Gluch: What?
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Danny Gluch: Where? Where do you think this influence is coming from? Is this Ernest? Is he really believing that this is the case, that most companies need more masculinity?
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Danny Gluch: Or is it a political move, trying to be in the good graces of a you know, a
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Danny Gluch: changing tide.
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Marion: I mean. Honestly, I think whatever way the winds blowing, you know he'll waft in that direction. I don't. I I
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Marion: I mean I don't. I can't think of one principled stand that he's taken. That has been something that hasn't flip flopped when you know it's it suited him. I mean, Dei is an absolute cracker, particularly as he went on to blame.
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Marion: the Meta or Facebook is as it was probably still then, their their Dei efforts were basically you know, down to Cheryl Sandenberg being too woke
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Marion: which is pretty nauseating. Now, I'm not. Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm all for for women in tech, and I think that she did some good things. But she also did some things that were not great. I mean, you know, if you think back to her, lean in moment.
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Marion: and you know that that landed like a block of lead amongst a lot of groups. So you know. Yeah, I think there's good intent there, but I'm not sure that you know I would use her as my barometer by any measure.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I think a lot of people who are are more progressive would not classify Sheryl Sandberg as very progressive at all.
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Cacha Dora: Right.
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Danny Gluch: A lot of her prescriptions to leaning in was being more assertive and aggressive and being more masculine in the workplace like, I'm not really sure where this criticism of
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Danny Gluch: her is really coming from. Like Wow!
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Danny Gluch: She also I mean, I do know that she spearheaded some of the efforts for Dei, but like it wasn't out of a wanting to lessen masculinity.
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Marion: I mean I mean, I just.
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Cacha Dora: Speaks to feeling threatened right like that's the thing right? Like, if you're saying there's not enough of things like me.
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Cacha Dora: I need more things like me.
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Marion: Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I mean, I think, honestly, like, I don't know enough about all the ins and outs. But
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Marion: looking at it from the outside in. She's no longer with the company.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: And she did spearhead Dei. Therefore she's an easy mark.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: It's a soft way out. Yeah, let's just blame the woman that's no longer here.
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Cacha Dora: We can. Always. The easiest scapegoat is the one that can't speak to the goings on of the current day.
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Marion: Exactly exactly. So. Yeah, it's I don't know. Like I I again I
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Marion: I think she was an easy option for him to kind of find a quick way out. But you know, putting it all on her
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Marion: ridiculous.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, it's not like they have, like a board of directors that also approve initiatives. Right? I mean.
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Marion: You can that?
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Marion: Yeah, that doesn't exist.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, it couldn't have been happening at the same time. And anyway, no, no, no, no.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, it's
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Danny Gluch: that that organization is is so weird because Zuckerberg really does just kind of get what he wants.
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Danny Gluch: Like
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Danny Gluch: at some point he thought this was a good idea, right? Or was it again, what what you were saying? Sort of like the wind was going in that direction, so he was fine with it, and now the wind is going the other direction.
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Marion: Yeah, I mean, you know, he's not alone there, I mean, look what's been going on in the last
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Marion: little while, as we've inched closer and closer to you know the change of administration date. There's been a lot of
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Marion: posturing and wind direction changing with stances. So he's definitely not alone. But it's
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Marion: yeah, it it doesn't sit well.
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Cacha Dora: No, no, it doesn't.
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Danny Gluch: And I think part of what doesn't sit well is. It's so vague.
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Danny Gluch: right like. And and, Marion, you were mentioning earlier about the
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Danny Gluch: the sort of tech obsession with masculinity. And we when we were talking offline, you were talking about this, the grind set and the hustle and the toughness and the the, you know, the pride in the lack of work, life balance. And I spent 80 HA week, you know, all every week this year Building. This product like that is a big silicon valley. Tech
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Danny Gluch: kind of staple is when they're saying masculinity is that the kind of
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Danny Gluch: thing that they're really talking about. And I know Elon with, you know, when he took over Twitter, you know that it was his big call of like, I want you to be dedicated. I want you to sleep at the office.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Is, is that really what they're what they're calling it masculinity. But they really mean that.
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Marion: Maybe I think part partly, you know. I I
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Marion: oh, I don't know like I think it's all of the above right.
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Cacha Dora: It's an ingrained culture.
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Marion: It is, and you know they want to separate themselves from being seen as woke or snowflaky, or what you know, add in any other derogatory term. For you know, someone who thinks.
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Marion: yeah, exactly. Someone who thinks left of the middle as opposed to to far right? Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Just in the middle at this point like, that's the thing. The middle.
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Danny Gluch: The middle's moved.
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Cacha Dora: The middle. The middle doesn't count for what the middle used to.
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Marion: Well, that's true. That's very true. So I I do think it's that I do think that that toxic
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Marion: work behavior, you know, work till you drop dead. We've talked about this a lot in connection with wellness and and all the other stuff
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Marion: burnout and everything. Yeah, yeah, abs, absolutely. And
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Marion: even when I kind of look at other stuff that I've written relating directly to my research around remote hybrid working. And and
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Marion: you know people, not that many that commented. But there's been a good few where they've been like, basically basically dry your fucking eyes. Get back to the office like, you know, if you were a teacher or a doctor you wouldn't have any option to work at home. So why are you special like that kind of stuff?
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Marion: Which is like for one
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Marion: great. If you work in a role which is is, you know, frontline public facing. You're an amazing human being. You truly are an amazing human being, right?
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Marion: And I have the biggest amount of respect.
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Marion: And some people want those careers, too, because that's what their passion, their enjoyment where they want to be. Some people start in those careers and then become disabled, and can no longer work in those careers. And isn't it better to have options, to be able to work in an environment where you're more comfortable than it is to not work at all and not be a contributing member, or to society in our economy. So like.
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Marion: I think, that there's just so much
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Marion: and anything which is seen as as perceived as libido
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Marion: there's so much spew and anti-ness against that.
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Marion: That's that's where a lot of this is coming from. And actually, I wonder, are people actually stopping and thinking about the real benefits. Are they just jumping on the hate bandwagon? Because
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Marion: you know why? Because.
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Cacha Dora: I think I think that line of thought to Marion when you really think about it, when these viewpoints that are trying to
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Cacha Dora: put masculinity on a pedestal.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Cacha Dora: Then the the disposition is also that femininity, or anything that would be constituted as femininity is not, is less than to some degree. And then, when you think about what are these characteristics that they're really talking about like? Well, you could be tough, or you could be soft, right like, because the opposite of tough is soft. So what are these other things? And like when you really think about all that stripping away that you're talking about what's left, is it? It is feminine to care, and it is masculine to take.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, yeah.
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Cacha Dora: And and even in a group dynamic. That's not how it works. Right like you've got people in project management. You've got people in the legal field. You've got people all over the place to rely on a lot of other people to get things done, and they're not saying I need you to man up for this. I need you to be more masculine to get this decision. It's can you talk to that person? Can you communicate that that's not being feminine. That's not being masculine. That's being human.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: There's no, there's no binary in that piece there, and it's very interesting how they're pedestalizing these these
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Cacha Dora: qualifiers capabilities. It's.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, very interesting. Where, where the narrative is going.
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Danny Gluch: a really really great concept of opposing binaries, where there's there's a hierarchy just inherently in these oppositional binaries. Great paper by Karen Warren.
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Danny Gluch: whatever. I'll put the link in the show notes if you guys want to read it. But it's exactly what you were talking about, Kasha, and
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Danny Gluch: there's when I think of masculinity, oftentimes what I associate it with is aggression, dominance, and what you mentioned earlier, kasha, like the Free pass to abuse
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Danny Gluch: as long as it's sort of in my service like I get. I get the pass to it to do that.
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Danny Gluch: And.
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Danny Gluch: boy like I I just see it like the the resurgence of like the the R. Word is a slur like.
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Cacha Dora: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: I thought we squashed that in like the early nineties and people were like, Oh, yeah, that's awful. We never need to use that word again. And all of a sudden it's coming up as this, like I get to and and doing so, I'm asserting my dominance, and I really think that this this you know.
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Danny Gluch: putting masculinity back as the center of what organizations need, is about
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Danny Gluch: saying that we need to have a more dominant, aggressive kind of abusive attitude, and it needs to be, you know, part of oh, yeah, you know, I had to take a 2 h preventing harassment training, you know, because the the women don't want me to do this, or if I try to talk to a woman, they're, gonna you know. Write me up. It's it. I really do think that people are looking for a past to have bad behavior.
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Marion: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I it's a woman.
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Marion: You know we we
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Marion: I guess it still doesn't ever get old or any less shocking when you hear statements like that.
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Marion: And I think what's making me really think about that harder is you've just.
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Marion: You've just made me realize that I've heard that more recently than I have in years gone by.
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Danny Gluch: Decades.
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Marion: Yeah, the the resurgence of this is palpable.
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Marion: And yeah, is it?
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Marion: Males predominantly, who are threatened
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Marion: for whatever reason, and using this as a a weapon and a way to strike back, and, as you said, assert your
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Marion: dominance.
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Marion: But I think what? Going back to what I said earlier on, what's even more shocking is that
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Marion: the number of women
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Marion: that are in support of that? I had a conversation with my director of studies the other day about my thesis, and her research is very much around gender in the workplace and stuff like that. And
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Marion: you know, she made a comment to me about. We're talking about Tiktok, and she mentioned about the number of
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Marion: females that that are being seen on Tiktok. Now talking about. You know you should you should.
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Marion: Your job is to be at home is to take care of the house and take care of the children, and and you know, serve your husband and and all this stuff that
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Marion: yeah, Kasia, your face. But I.
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Cacha Dora: I couldn't hide that. I'm so glad no one saw that outside of you guys.
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Marion: I was like, Are you fucking, joking like, are you serious? Then I went and looked, and I was like, holy shit that this is a thing. Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: You have.
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Cacha Dora: That's the thing. When you think about something like the Tiktok algorithm which rip Tiktok. But
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Cacha Dora: the algorithm is going to cater to you right like you end up in a bit of an echo chamber, and you forget that there is this other mindset that is very opposed to how you think and operate to a degree. And the conservative movement
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Cacha Dora: that isn't just isn't just limited to the United States.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: There are concern. There's a huge wave of conservative conservativism. I don't know the right word, guys. It's fine. We're making it up. This is late in the evening.
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Cacha Dora: but
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Cacha Dora: You know
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Cacha Dora: there the trend is not, you know, unique to the Us. Right now, which I find very sad personally. But
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Cacha Dora: I don't know. I think I think there's so many things to take pride in your life as opposed to finding yourself subservient.
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Cacha Dora: That's my own personal opinion, and I will stick by that. Anyway.
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Cacha Dora: I hate.
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Danny Gluch: I mean.
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Cacha Dora: It's very interesting to see you're seeing this in the education, space and academia is noticing this trend. If you're noticing this in academia, that means that it is prevalent in a lot farther places, because by the time it's being noticed in academia there are studies on it. It's not just.
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Danny Gluch: A a shot in the pan. Kind of deal right? This trend
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Danny Gluch: starting. It's been studied. It's been written on. It's been peer reviewed and published.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah. And that's what is like, Marion, you saying? That's kind of like making my head spin a bit.
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Cacha Dora: because that that says that this has.
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Cacha Dora: This has roots. It's not just like it's got wings. No, this has roots.
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Marion: I suppose. How does this all spill over into the workplace? Right? Because.
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Cacha Dora: Great question.
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Marion: Yeah, I mean, we know that.
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Marion: we're living in a time where things are very inflamed and polarizing. And
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Marion: you know, when I think about
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Marion: the women's movement and strives for equality, I mean, women are still underpaid in comparison to to males
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Marion: and
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Marion: I remember a while ago I was on a really bad date with a guy who told me that the pay gap was didn't exist, and it was. It was made up by the Liberals, and it was not even a thing. And I'm like
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Marion: me. Are you serious like? Let me just pull out.
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Marion: I'm standing right here.
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Cacha Dora: Right? Yeah, I know.
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Marion: Like? Are you for real.
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Cacha Dora: I hate to hate to break it to you. Bro, but you don't have a a uterus to be able to actually explain this from a different perspective outside of the fact that you get the benefit, anyway.
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Danny Gluch: But I honestly, I think it's related. I really do think that there's a a push towards you know, and we saw it with getting rid of equity and and the flattening out the milk toasting. If I can make that a verb of diversity and inclusion.
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Danny Gluch: You know we're getting to a place where people want to say, Oh, I'm just colorblind. I don't see color and ignoring the fact that there are different lived experiences. And the the 1st people who are going to feel that is the the women in the workplace. And it's it's also.
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Cacha Dora: Minorities.
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Danny Gluch: Yes, it's also going to affect minorities, and it's also going to affect anyone who needs an accommodation for disability. You know, I was talking with a colleague just earlier today, where someone was like, Hey, I need a standing desk sitting hurts my hips and my back too much. I need a standing desk, and someone's response was, well, then, we would have to get a standing desk for everyone.
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Danny Gluch: The idea, this, this sort of like
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Cacha Dora: We're last time I checked. We officially weren't in a communism con based country yet.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, well, I mean
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Danny Gluch: this misconception of what equality means and why equity was so important. It's that it's not. Everyone has to be treated exactly equally. There are differences and those differences matter. And I really think part of this masculine movement is to be like no
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Danny Gluch: differences don't matter. Everyone needs to be like this, and we're just not going to listen to you.
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Marion: Yeah, that's true.
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Danny Gluch: I think that's a big part of it. I think they want to get rid of Dei because they don't want to acknowledge that there are differences. Because in doing so, if if you're actually admitting to material differences in people's lives, you're admitting to injustice. And they don't want to do that it's really just not as fair for some people, and that goes for the pay gap and everything.
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Cacha Dora: More beneficial and easy. Let's just call it easy if you make everything homogenized as opposed to having bits of flair and uniqueness, but also.
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Cacha Dora: Then, like, I mean, this is the way that my mind works is, I think, well, okay, if you're gonna make everything flat.
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Cacha Dora: then you don't have innovation. You don't have new ideas. You're stuck. You're stuck at a pinpoint in the past because you won't allow things to move forward.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I mean, that's that's the whole, you know. Appeal to tradition. Fallacy is.
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Danny Gluch: You're stuck in the past. You can't move forward. You're just saying, oh, but it was so great in the 19 fifties. Let's stay in the 19 fifties, you know. They can go in their smoking section and not wear seat belts, and they'll all die off eventually. That's totally fine.
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Marion: Oh, yeah, I I don't know. I I'm it's easy, I think, to slide into despair when you know you see what we've seen in the press over this last week, particularly around
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Marion: our friend Mark Zuckerberg.
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Marion: And all of these things that we're talking about, because
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Marion: yeah, it it's a terrifying notion to think that we're going backwards.
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Marion: But then I find comfort in the fact that I know that there's a lot of companies and people that are still pushing forwards like it was great to hear about Apple doubling down on their commitment to Dei. You know there's other companies out there as well, that have have made the same commitment recent times by companies.
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Marion: So that is
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Marion: great that renews my belief in humankind. And that there's there's people out there who actually do read
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Marion: data and research and understand how these things work and how they'll play out.
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Marion: But I'm genuinely concerned about
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Marion: the the movement backwards in a lot of these really prolific companies like Amazon, like Meta, who are
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Marion: rolling things back that are very important and have been very important to move this forward.
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Marion: And maybe it's a step backwards to come forwards again. I'd like to hope so. But
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Marion: how long does that take.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah. Yeah. And and the thing is is, it's it's the windfall of it, right is on
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Cacha Dora: the people who never get a chance to really be a voice in that room, but they're the ones who are going to feel it. And the people who are making those decisions are the ones who aren't going to feel it, and that that disconnection that divide
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Cacha Dora: I think this messaging really speaks loudly to, even if you can't see it.
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Marion: Yeah, it does. It comes back to employee voice right? There was another Linkedin post of mine in the last couple of weeks where? I'd looked at Jp. Morgan and the quote from their CEO about you know, for their 5 days mandate. And you know, basically, it said, you know we
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Marion: we respect we respect.
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Marion: Oh, what was it we? We're we respectfully understand that not everyone will be happy about returning to the office
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Marion: most respectful about that, mate you've just said. We know that you need these things, but really we don't give a shit.
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Marion: It is.
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Marion: There's nothing respectful about that. So like again, it's just this, this, this, you know, brazenness.
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Marion: To
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Marion: to speak this way to employees, to remove their voice, to say, yeah, well, you might see that. But we really don't give a shit. We're gonna do our own thing, anyway.
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Marion: And sadly, we're seeing more and more and more of this in industry.
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Marion: And so I don't know. It's going to be very interesting to observe
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Marion: shit to live in, shit, to work in, but very interesting to observe and see.
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Marion: How is this going to play out? How long can this polarity go on for? And and
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Marion: what's the Crunch point here?
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Danny Gluch: I don't know. I I think that's the the big question is.
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Danny Gluch: I think we're we're. We haven't even hit bottom yet, to be honest. So it's hard to talk about when it's gonna end, when we haven't seen what the bottom is.
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Marion: That's true.
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Cacha Dora: Well, and I think I think a part of it is. Some of these comments, I think, are also feelers in a way right. They're trying to see where these messages will land. How big of an audience they do have.
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Marion: Can I get away with.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, yeah, I think I think it's putting out feelers initially. And Danny, to your point, I think you're completely correct. We're nowhere near the end of of this line.
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Cacha Dora: Of thought or reasoning, as far as the public lexicon is concerned, which also means that having more people who are vocally opposed is going to be so
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Cacha Dora: critical. We're seeing it on Linkedin already, Marion. The comments that you've had on your post other posts that have been making comments about it as well. Clearly Zuckerberg's comments struck a chord with many people because it blew up on the news outlets. It blew up on social media everywhere. So it really did strike a chord. So I think the more
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Cacha Dora: people exercise their ability of being able to speak. I'm curious to see how often we'll see these kinds of
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Cacha Dora: public thought points, and if they maintain, if they grow, or if they kind of are just
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Cacha Dora: drops in the pan, I do not think they're gonna be drops in the pan. I think we're gonna see a lot more of them, which is the really shitty part of this. But that brazenness. I'm curious how long it'll last.
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Marion: Do you think I'm I'm curious what your thoughts are here. Do you think that he intentionally like he very intentionally made that statement? Or do you think that it's something that he obviously thinks and feels? But you know, just
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Marion: blurted out in a moment of absolute stupidity. And probably, as Comms person had their head in their hands, weeping when they heard him say it like, what what do you think? Do you think it was intentional, or do you think it was?
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Marion: Hmm.
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Cacha Dora: I think it was one of those things where your inside voice is supposed to stay. Your inside voice, the intrusive thoughts, one but what my 1st thought was, and and no joke. My 1st initial thought, when I once I registered that the comment was coming out of an episode of the Joe Rogan podcast was Joe Rogan has a way of pulling things out of people that they should never say out loud
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Cacha Dora: and and it's.
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Danny Gluch: Good at that!
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Cacha Dora: He really is he really? As as a facilitator of dialogue, he gets you comfortable enough to say the shit you're not supposed to say, and sometimes it might not be the stuff that you actually put all your marbles into.
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Danny Gluch: I was just gonna say that he's he's very good at. And we see this a lot with, with certain entertainers of packaging their ideas in a way that are like, Oh, you know what? Yeah, that that kind of just makes this sort of intuitive sense. And you you start like with a tiny little baby step. And then, before you know it, you're saying things like, most companies need more masculine energy on a podcast.
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Marion: So like.
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Cacha Dora: I
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Cacha Dora: I I don't. I don't know if he walked into it thinking that I'm gonna say this today, you know what I mean.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: But I mean your your evidence will be in the behavior of the business, but also that then goes back to the fact that companies like Meta have a board of directors. They have. They are supposed to have a level of check and balance, to be able to approve or disavow things like that. But
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Cacha Dora: do I think his intent was to walk in and say it? Not necessarily. However, Marion, to your question. You know we're hearing about today
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Cacha Dora: that Meta also is quietly laying off a percentage of their employee force. So there's some people who are already speculating online that maybe this was a very
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Cacha Dora: salty pr move
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Cacha Dora: to take the heat from the fact that they're laying people off. And the reason that they're saying they're laying people off because they're claiming their layoff is for low performers.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: So. But I think like when you think about intent right, I don't think he did it intentionally, but there's a lot of speculation that's now brewing on his intentions.
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Marion: Yeah, no. And it that's taken us down and.
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Cacha Dora: Total different rabbit hole. Total rabbit hole. Yeah, no, I know.
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Marion: I do want to make a comment on that, because
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Marion: I've been digesting some of this content over the course of the day and trying to kind of.
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Marion: you know, rationalizing my brain.
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Marion: how I feel about things, and some of the points of view that I've read have really struck a chord like to your point. Yeah, I mean, layoffs are shitty, right?
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Marion: They're a fact of life, and they're often necessary. But they're shitty. And you know
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Marion: it's a normal thing to do is to manage out will performance. You know, if you're gonna do a round of layoffs, you're gonna do performance based. And that's pretty normal in business and people jumping up and down and making a big thing about that.
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Marion: They're not living in reality. That's reality. Right? Why would you maintain people in your business if they're not performing.
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Cacha Dora: However.
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Marion: Someone did make a comment today who was a former Meta employee who said, Meta tracks the best of the best of the best of the best
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Marion: low performers in Meta would be your rock stars, your high performers, high potentials, and other organizations.
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Marion: And when I read that I was like, Oh.
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Cacha Dora: That. Just yeah.
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Marion: And I was like, what a a different way to look at things.
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Marion: So because, you know, getting into Meta is not easy by any stretch of the imagination. And yeah. So I don't know, like it's I'm kind of like I'm a little all over the over the place. With that layoffs are crap. They should be done in a way which is respectful to the individuals involved. And you know, in in a way which is.
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Marion: I mean, let's face it. People should be
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Marion: separated with in a way which is dignified and respectful and paid for. Okay, right? Let's yeah.
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Marion: especially in in today's job market. But yeah, I I don't know. I'm very. I'm very kind of mixed on how I feel about all that stuff.
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Cacha Dora: Danny, I'm curious from your perspective as the the singular male in this current conversation.
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Cacha Dora: How did it feel as someone who is very much vocal about feminism. In the 1st place, how did that feel from your perspective to see someone in that kind of a power power seat
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Cacha Dora: say something like that?
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Danny Gluch: Good question. It was. It was really hard to hear honestly it it was because I
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Danny Gluch: I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with like traditional masculine traits. I think the problem is
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Danny Gluch: what we allow
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Danny Gluch: men what we socialize boys and men to behave as is actually kind of bad for them.
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Danny Gluch: Right? The limiting of emotions, like, what are the emotions that men are allowed to have anger, and whatever matrix of emotions equals competitiveness and spite or revenge, and maybe, like vigilante justice like those that's what we get and like. That's not good. And and men are capable of so much more than that which means masculinity is capable of so much more than that. Yeah. And
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Danny Gluch: the problem when I hear these very sort of like flat statements, right? So not not deep statements about. We need more masculinity.
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Danny Gluch: It's it. I want to hear the other layers. What do you mean by masculine like? Are you saying, we need people who are going to sacrifice for the greater good. You know, like we've seen so many examples of men throughout history do in in war, or for their families or kids, their their partners, whatever it is like. Great! Sure, that's fine. I don't think that's what you mean, though, and I think you're intentionally not digging deeper because you
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Danny Gluch: don't want to say things like I think we should be more abusive and.
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Marion: Cannot wait.
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Danny Gluch: With it. I want to go back to being Don Draper in the fifties.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: And that's really what I think is being said. But they're not willing to take that extra layer. How do I talk about this like when you say anger right? Anger is a very flat term that can mean a lot of things. But when you start using other language like, Oh, I'm actually bitter about something. All of a sudden there's a lot more color to it and understanding.
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Danny Gluch: And and that's that's where we're stuck, is, they say, masculinity, and it could mean a thousand different things. And it's probably the worst ones you actually think.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: And I would love to. I would love to be proven wrong, and they actually mean the good ones. But I doubt it.
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Marion: Yeah, i i i really appreciate all of that context and value here in that, I think
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Marion: one of the other things that just really is difficult to swallow is, you know, women have
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Marion: clearly been disturbed and upset by these comments.
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Marion: and have spoken out about it, and many men have supported it and said, absolutely, that's abhorrent in this day and age that's disgusting.
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Marion: And then other men have accused women of being man haters. Why do you hate men so much.
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Marion: Hate. Men love men.
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Marion: Yeah, they're great. I don't.
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Cacha Dora: Like trash humans, and their gender doesn't qualify as being trash. They do.
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Marion: Exactly. And you know, when I think about what does masculinity mean? Like, I think about
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Marion: men who set good examples for their sons who teach their sons that it's okay to cry. And it's okay to show emotion. And it's okay to.
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Marion: you know, have empathy and things like that.
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Marion: And no, it doesn't make them weak.
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Marion: or you know, let's say it, they would say, it doesn't make you feminine doesn't make you this or that, or whatever they would use some kind of gay slut, or you know.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. No.
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Marion: It's not so again. It's all such a mess.
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Danny Gluch: It's all so messy and.
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Marion: Sucked up in a million different biases and negative connotations and emotions. And
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Marion: I can't believe this is where we are in 2025.
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Danny Gluch: You know what I'm reminded of when you were talking about? That was a league of their own. One of my favorite movies.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: And Tom Hanks yelling, there's no crying in baseball.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: And I feel like Zuckerberg wants to say there's no crying in business, and we
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Danny Gluch: we need you to go back to being calloused, and where we can mistreat you. But because we're mistreating you, we're getting more productivity out of you.
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Danny Gluch: I just I can't.
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Danny Gluch: Goodbye.
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Danny Gluch: The image of that's the vibe. They're they're sending.
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Marion: Yeah, I mean, you're I don't think you're wrong.
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Marion: So bringing this home as the as the non experts on any of this just humans and bystanders.
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Marion: How do we think organizations should tackle these types of conversations, or should they.
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Danny Gluch: I think they should. I honestly think they should. I? I think they're doing a disservice to their employees if they're not using the language of the broader culture around them.
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Danny Gluch: Right? If we use this very sanitized language or very corporate language, it feels like we're we're in severance where where one part of me is here, and and I can be, you know, diversity inclusion here, but then it it doesn't bleed over to to what that means in society and vice versa. We need to treat people like adults and understand that this is complicated. And you don't have to be, you know, as progressive as us to be right.
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Danny Gluch: but, like you can have your mix of experiences and beliefs and still be a good person. And that's what we need you to be at work is a good civil person, and whether that's through masculine traits or feminine traits, we need people to feel like they can be themselves at work.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, I absolutely love that, Danny. And I think the thing they just kept running through my brain, hearing you say that was like
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Cacha Dora: workplaces.
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Cacha Dora: They should be talking about this, because that's how they're going to promote safety in the workplace.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Cacha Dora: And we obviously care very deeply about psychological safety. And you can be a safe leader and be assertive. That doesn't mean that you're not safe. You sometimes you have to make very clear and distinct decisions
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Cacha Dora: that doesn't make you unsafe. That doesn't mean that you're doing something masculine or femininely. You're making assertive decisions that are going to positively affect things or negatively affect things. But they have to get done right like. So that doesn't make it again doesn't show into a gender binary at that point. But you should be promoting a safe workplace and
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Cacha Dora: a safe workplace means inviting conversation that maybe you're gonna be uncomfortable with, and you might not agree with someone should be able to say what they need to say without Danny like you said earlier, right? Being abusive.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: Kasha, I think you just closed down the show for us. That was.
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Danny Gluch: Absolutely mic drop. That's that's exactly what we need. And and it was you started the very 1st you were talking about abuse.
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Danny Gluch: and that. That's what we want out. That's it. That's what we want out. If if saying we want abusive toxic managers and and coworkers out of the workplace makes us feminine whatever. I think it's a very masculine thing to go seek out that thing that threatens the the group, the community, and to hunt it out and get rid of it. Fine! Frame it that way if you want. I don't care. I just loved about.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: You should reframe employee relations, and Hr. To the abuser hunters, hunt them down, eliminate.
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Marion: Oh, gosh!
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Danny Gluch: Would get more men in Hr.
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Cacha Dora: Also, Hr. Would feel like the Terminator.
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Marion: Yeah, yeah. But I think I think we're trying to escape that.
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Cacha Dora: Exactly.
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Marion: Language.
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Cacha Dora: Exactly, exactly.
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Danny Gluch: all right. Well, that was that was great. We we want to hear what what everyone in our audience thinks, though as well, because this is a really complicated topic. How would you handle doing this in your organization? What conversations would you lead? What conversations would you be scared to have. What conversations do you think shouldn't be had in the organization? Send us, an email
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Danny Gluch: comment on Marion's post, apparently like a million people have seen it now on Linkedin. And we'll see you guys next time. Thank you very much.
