The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
Disability Isn’t the Problem - Your Workplace Is with Lia Seth
If your workplace isn’t actively inclusive, it’s actively exclusive.
In this episode, we’re calling out the ableism hiding in your workplace—from HR’s internalized biases to managers who don’t know what they don’t know to “inclusion” efforts that are all show, no substance.
🔥 What’s Inside:
✔️ The jaw-dropping story of a manager who told Lia not to use her wheelchair in front of clients
✔️ How HR’s “I struggled, so you should too” mindset is failing disabled employees
✔️ Why equality ≠ equity—and what real inclusion looks like
✔️ Performative allyship vs. real change (yes, we’re naming names)
✔️ The hidden ableism in return-to-office mandates—and why flexibility is a disability issue
Ableism isn’t a disability issue—it’s a workplace issue. Let’s fix it.
⭐ Love the episode? Leave a review & share it!
Connect with Our Guest:
Lia Seth on LinkedIn
Link to Show Notes
Disability Reimagined: From Red Tape to Real Access is a collaborative initiative led by The Fearless PX, The Performance Innovation Collective, and Invisible Condition—and we want you to be part of it.
🚀 Want to get involved? Ready to rethink disability in your workplace?
👉 Sign up here
Connect with Us:
- Follow The Fearless PX on Linkedin at The Fearless PX
- Reach out to Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlesspx.com
- You can find all episodes of The Elephant in the Org here.
We encourage you to subscribe and leave a review if you found this episode enlightening!
From April 2024, all new episodes of The Elephant In the Org will be posted bi-weekly.
Music Credits:
Opening and closing theme by The Toros.
Production Credits:
Produced by The Fearless PX, Edited by Marion Anderson.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are exclusively those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations’ official policy or position.
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Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the elephant in the org, everyone. I'm Danny Glutch, and I'm here with my co-host Kasha. Dora.
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Cacha Dora: Hello!
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Danny Gluch: And Marian Anderson.
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Marion: Hello!
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Danny Gluch: And we have a special guest this week. Leah, sate Leah. Why don't you introduce yourself.
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Lia Seth: Hey, Danny, thanks for having me so. I'm Leah. I live in Seattle, Washington. I have been in Hr. For close to a decade. That may be rounding up a little bit. I was actually a data analyst in a past life and an event coordinator. I've had a very weird journey to Hr. But ultimately landed here because
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Lia Seth: I had a lot of experiences in the workplace that I thought could really be better for employees, and I knew that
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Lia Seth: it was a very intentional move for me coming into Hr. And saying, Okay, the employee experience is one that really really has a huge effect on people's happiness at work and people's safety at work. And having been on the wrong side of that, I knew that moving into Hr. I could really make a better impact for other people, so that people didn't have to go through a lot of what I went through.
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Danny Gluch: Wow! And a lot of what you went through has to deal. And it's boiled down to Ableism in the workplace. And that is our elephant in the org this week. Ableism in the workplace. It's not something I've experienced a lot of, and we're so happy to have you on the pod with us, Leah, this week. Could you tell us some of the, I'm sure, just insane stories that you have.
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Lia Seth: I am. Yes, I have a lot of stories that I can share. I won't get into all of them, but I'll share some of the highlights or lowlights, as it were, and just really quick. For anyone who may not know Ableism is discrimination or prejudice or bias against people with disabilities. So
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Lia Seth: race is to racism as disability is to Ableism. It can be verbal using slurs, or even just language that is not preferred, for example, saying wheelchair bound instead of a wheelchair user. It can be overt. It can be physical. There's a lot of ways that ableism can play out. And unfortunately, I've experienced a lot of them.
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Lia Seth: not all in the workplace, but a surprising number in the workplace. And I will say I think a lot of that comes from lack of manager training.
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Lia Seth: So we all know most of us go through our annual harassment training or anti harassment training, rather harassment, prevention training. We've all gone through. Those managers typically have to go through a like 2 h course once a year. And we all know what that covers. It's basically like, Hey, if someone's a woman, don't make it the whole thing. If like, definitely don't comment on people's bodies, don't
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Lia Seth: you know? Like, if someone on your team joins and they're a different race. Don't ask them racist questions. It's very basic stuff. A lot of us really know and understand. Like, okay, yeah, don't be a jerk.
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Lia Seth: But if you watch some of those trainings with that eye towards Ableism, there's definitely commentary about disability, but I feel like so much of it is glossed over. And I really think of disability as sort of the forgotten minority. You hear a lot of stories about people who experience sexism at work, experience racism at work.
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Lia Seth: Ableism is a huge problem at work, and it's not one you hear a lot about, because you'll hear statistics like, okay, women make, you know X amount to the dollar compared to what men make. And then you break that down. You're like, Okay, well, black women make even less, and Hispanic women make even less
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Lia Seth: disabled people. You don't hear the stats. There's actually a subminimum wage that they can make below minimum wage, due to legal loopholes. There's all kinds of things like that that people don't know about, because no one really talks about disability.
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Danny Gluch: Wow, yeah, no, it's I had no idea about that.
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Danny Gluch: On the harassment training I've I've not seen, like a good portion of those trainings dedicated to it.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, it really does kind of tackle your your 5 main markers. But doesn't. It
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Cacha Dora: doesn't dive into disability like it dives into those other risk areas.
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Lia Seth: Absolutely. And you know it'll sometimes be a throwaway comment that's like, Hey, there are laws against this, so don't break those, but they really don't get into really concrete examples of what that can look like. They don't get into a lot of the laws like when you think about things like Fmla, Hr. Folks really need to know a lot about that. Managers don't tend to know a lot about that. And so it leads to all these scenarios where
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Lia Seth: even well-meaning managers can just really put their foot in it, because they just don't know any better because they're not getting training.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: I experienced something with that, even on my own, with trying to coach a friend who is caring for her mom, who has Crohn's and a whole bunch of other things that are affecting her digestive system. And I was like, you need to look into Fmla. You can be able to care for your mom. You can get Job protection through this. You can get all these benefits.
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Cacha Dora: She'd never heard of it. Her bosses hadn't heard of it, and her bosses were like, well, you're just gonna get written up as opposed to being able to recommend these things that are support systems that genuinely exist. But to your point, Leah.
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Cacha Dora: If people don't get trained about it, they don't talk about it. They don't exist because they don't know about them. It's not that they actually don't exist.
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Marion: I cannot. I cannot pick that one stage further, though, like something you said a minute ago.
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Marion: Hr. Professionals are not trained in anything connected to ableism anything connected. To how to best support. Our disabled coworkers. And you know we've talked a lot about this amongst ourselves recently. But for me, like
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Marion: I was the child of 2 disabled parents. I grew up as a carer
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Marion: when I became an Hr. Professional and Hr. Leader. I thought. Oh, well, I mean all that experience is going to serve me well, to be, you know, an empathetic support and proactive support to colleagues that are living with any form of disability.
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Marion: That was not the case, and I only realized that when I became
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Marion: disabled myself and realized I knew absolutely sweet Fa. And as Hr. Professionals.
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Marion: we are not trained, we are not supported. We don't have resources to lean into, and yet everyone looks to us to be the experts in the room.
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Cacha Dora: Hmm.
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Marion: And we're far from it.
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Lia Seth: Exactly, and I mean I feel like I'm in a position where I talked to so many Hr folks who are like God. I've never dealt with like accommodation requests. I don't know what to do. I'm afraid of doing the wrong thing, saying the wrong thing, even if they understand the laws around it. They understand Fmla, and how it works. There's nuance there where, if you don't have experience, if you don't have training
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Lia Seth: it, and I think everyone's scared of the unknown, too. They're scared of that. They're going to do something wrong. And so they end up taking inaction, which is also doing something wrong. So there's there's you're totally right. It's not just managers. Hr. Does not get the training either, unless you're living with it directly, and that was my experience was that I didn't know any of these things. I think I wouldn't have had this knowledge if I hadn't gone through it myself.
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Marion: No, it's really true. And also you know what was even more. Eye opening to me, was being on the end of microaggressions, from a colleague, an Hr. Colleague.
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Marion: and I don't believe it was from any malice whatsoever. Just lack of knowledge, lack of awareness, and
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Marion: it felt shitty, and I was really upset. Danny and Kasha remember me talking about it, and I was so upset about it and so angry about it.
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Marion: But then it made me think.
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Marion: I bet I've done that, too.
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Marion: And that was a very humbling moment. And kind of pushed me to want to do better.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah. And I think I think the emotional ramifications are huge because it is about that
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Cacha Dora: that lived experience beyond training. And we don't realize
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Cacha Dora: when you think about ableism, right? We don't realize the barriers that are in place. If you never experience those barriers.
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Cacha Dora: and it's so sad, but so true and sometimes
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Cacha Dora: like, How how do we get through the training? If we don't even realize that we need the training that ignorance that Danny was talking about earlier, because our society is built around
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Cacha Dora: that which is tricky, very, very tricky.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. And it's it's hard to talk about. You know. Physical issues. It, you know, brings up our own mortality in a way, and our own availability and and imperfections. And what Leah was talking about of that fear of getting it wrong. The fear of acting wrongly leads to inaction
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Danny Gluch: hides it even more right, because that because people aren't taking actions, there aren't other sort of organizational lessons to learn from when one person did it, right or wrong, right? Because they're not doing anything. No one learns it would be better for someone to try and get it wrong, so that people could at least learn the lesson and get people out of the stage of ignorance. But it's sort of this, like self perpetuating cycle of inaction and ignorance that
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Danny Gluch: you know we like to to look towards Hr. Like we have the answers, and it just sadly isn't the case. We don't have the experience.
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Lia Seth: Yeah, I think that's so much of it, right? I think everything that you all have just said. Like it's it's usually it's almost never malice. It's never like I want to hurt this person. I want to cause this person pain. I want to offend this person. It's usually I don't know what to say.
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Lia Seth: and I'm afraid I'm going to step in it. And then you do, or you know, maybe you even have good intentions. But you just go about it completely the wrong way, and end up having that person feel like I'm not supported. I'm not, you know, respected here. I'm not going to get what I need. I can't be myself here. So a story I'll tell about that is, I went through my disability journey
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Lia Seth: in my twenties, so I always knew that there was some kind of
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Lia Seth: something different about me. I didn't really know what it was. I had a my gait was off from the time I learned how to walk I would be in pain a lot. I would be exhausted a lot through college. I had no idea how my friends were able to like.
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Lia Seth: go out exploring, sightseeing, shopping all day, and then go dancing all night. I was like I can do. Maybe one of those on a good day, and then I need to rest for like 4 days, so I don't know how you're able to do both, and then go get brunch the next day like, that's too much. And so it wasn't until I was in my early twenties that I learned. Okay, I have this condition.
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Lia Seth: I do have a disability. It was a really interesting journey, and honestly a kind of an exciting journey for me, because I think any time that you understand your identity.
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Lia Seth: There's something really powerful and exciting about it, I mean, that's why, like as a teenager, I love taking all those little personality quizzes, and that's why I think people love things like Myers-briggs like we really like to label ourselves as much as we can say. Oh, I don't like labels like you want to say, like, I'm an Aquarius, I'm an Intj, I'm this. I'm that you want to be able to say those things. It's nice to be able to put yourself in a box, because that's what gives you community in some ways. So for me.
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Lia Seth: I got to learn. I'm disabled. I immediately had this amazing community of people who were Internet friends that I met through Tumblr and Facebook and Twitter in my twenties. When I got to say, Okay, great. These are people who are experiencing what I'm experiencing. They're there to support me. I can feel good about this. I'm not ashamed of having a disability.
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Lia Seth: I actually now know what I've been feeling all this time, and now I can actually take action. Do something about it. I was able to start physical therapy. I retrained myself how to walk properly.
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Lia Seth: and the most exciting thing is, I got a wheelchair, and for me, wheelchairs really represent freedom. A lot of people see, and that's why I don't like the term wheelchair bound, because that makes it seem like this is a trap. This is a prison. This is somewhere you're stuck. This means freedom. If you are someone who deals with pain and deals with not being able to get around. Wheelchairs are access and freedom, especially when there's accessible places you can go. That's a whole different story, though.
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Lia Seth: But for me, I was like I couldn't go and spend a day walking around a museum because I would get exhausted, and when I had a wheelchair now I can go. I can experience art. I can go to the Zoo and experience that I can go to an amusement park, and I don't have to worry about like
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Lia Seth: passing out, because I'm waiting in line and standing, and my knees are locking. I have a wheelchair, and now I can do things, and it just felt so empowering to me to have that experience, and I was really excited about it
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Lia Seth: again. I'm in my early twenties. I'm like 2223 years old.
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Lia Seth: So I go to my boss. I'm in my one on one with her. We're just talking about, you know, things coming up. And just we were in a position where we would talk about. You know our personal lives. She would tell me about her kids I would tell her about, like my
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Lia Seth: terrible apartment that I was living in at the time. You know just things that I was experiencing, and so I shared with her like, Hey, a really exciting update. I got a wheelchair and I took it to the aquarium and got to spend all day there, and, you know, got to go home, and I wasn't exhausted. It was great. I'm so happy. So this is something now that I can use on occasion, and I told her I was like, I'm probably not going to use it in the office, because I'm mostly sitting down in the office, but like this is something I can now use. If
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Lia Seth: there's an otherwise, an event where I would be on my feet, I don't. I don't have to worry about that.
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Lia Seth: And she kind of like nodded slowly. She was clearly a little uncomfortable because she'd never heard someone be excited about a wheelchair. Most people, when they hear about a wheelchair they're like that. Seems
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Lia Seth: bad like. If you're in a wheelchair like they don't realize that it could be a good thing.
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Cacha Dora: The oh, no response is something that they just do. Naturally, without thinking about it.
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Lia Seth: Absolutely. Yeah. So she was kind of like, okay, so I was like, yeah, so I can, I can use this at events now, and I'm really excited. And at the time
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Lia Seth: what my job was focused on was putting together client events, networking events. So we would meet with clients. We would introduce them to people, and I was planning a lot of those, and I was attending a lot of those, and it was really exhausting, and she knew that it was exhausting because I was also having to wear like business semi, formal clothes. So I was wearing the like.
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Lia Seth: The slacks, the sheath dresses the uncomfortable shoes, and being on your feet in uncomfortable shoes for a long time, I mean it was hard for me to be on my feet for a long time in like hiking boots and sneakers, so doing it in fancy shoes really hard.
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Lia Seth: So she said, Okay, well, you know, I'm happy for you, I guess, but
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Lia Seth: don't bring that to client events.
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Lia Seth: and I don't think she used those exact words, but she said something that was basically like it would be better if you did not use your wheelchair at client events.
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Lia Seth: I was 23. I was brand new to being disabled. I was functionally brand new to the working world.
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Lia Seth: and I had no Hr. Experience. I didn't know the laws. I wasn't super familiar with anything. I knew the Ada existed, but I didn't really know what that meant for me.
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Lia Seth: And here I am in this position where my boss is telling me. Here is how I want you to be at work events, and I thought, Well, I guess that's her prerogative to tell me
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Lia Seth: how I'm representing the company at these events, and I didn't stop to think like that's illegal.
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Danny Gluch: Like, very.
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Lia Seth: Very, very illegal, decidedly illegal, and she never said like, Hey, like.
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Lia Seth: I hear you're excited about this. This is a change like, let's bring in hr, let's like she, which would have been kind of its own separate thing.
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Lia Seth: But her immediate thing was just to shut it down of like, I don't want that at client events. I don't want anyone we work with. I don't want to to see an employee in a wheelchair. I don't want you to be the focus of this in your wheelchair. I don't want
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Lia Seth: clients to have that experience of having to come to an event with someone in a wheelchair. I don't know what the underlying thing was there for her, but that was, that was the message was.
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Lia Seth: no one at this company is going to be representing the company in a wheelchair.
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Cacha Dora: It's more about presentation for for her in that instance. That's absolutely that's really.
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Danny Gluch: I'm like speechless.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, I'm I have a lot of feelings, and I'm I'm so sorry you experienced that at that, at that juncture of your experiential moments.
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Lia Seth: Yeah. And I mean again, I've had, you know, 1015 years to process this story. So I know I'm just throwing this at you all now having to process it. But it took a long time for me to
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Lia Seth: really realized like that was illegal like. It took years for me to think back on that conversation and realize like that was such a turning point for me, and to realize that that was really kind of the catalyst of me moving into an employee experience role where
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Lia Seth: I don't want any manager to ever say anything like that to anyone an employee, anyone in their life like. I don't want anyone to say that to anyone. I don't want to see you in a wheelchair. My goodness!
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Marion: I mean there was not. There was nothing micro about that aggression right.
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Cacha Dora: No.
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Marion: You know, he here's the here's the thing, though, like I like to think, you know.
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Marion: I like to think that since that time that person that managers had an opportunity to
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Marion: do better, to become more educated, and I believe
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Marion: that somewhere is having those moments of shame when they flash back to.
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Marion: Oh, shit! I can't believe I did that, you know.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: I'd like to think that that might not be the case. But you know those are the moments in your careers, and and we've all had them, maybe not to that extent, of course, but we've all had those moments where we're like.
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Marion: God, that was shitty. I should have done better, you know.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: Yeah, that's that that one hits hard.
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Danny Gluch: It's it's really eye-opening, the the level of
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Danny Gluch: positive relationship that you clearly had with your manager where this wasn't like someone who it was already a contentious relationship, and this was an opportunity for them to sort of like express, or have, like a deep seated dislike, come out finally. It it seemed like this person really liked you. And it just it really like
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Danny Gluch: brings to to mind conversations that I've had in the past about how we're socialized to have contempt for certain things.
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Danny Gluch: and.
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Lia Seth: Absolutely no, that is, that is exactly. My point is that there was no ill intent behind it. She didn't mean it maliciously. She didn't mean it to hurt me. She didn't mean it to come across in the way that it did.
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Lia Seth: She? Really she I mean the way I worked with her for another like year or 2 after that she really valued me. She showed me that multiple times in the way we work together. There was one time where another manager had like joked that he was going to poach me off her team and move me. And she basically was just like, No, like I like. I will like fight for her. You're not.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Lia Seth: Off my team. I want to keep working with her, and I knew I was really valued on that team, and that she really really appreciated me working with her.
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Lia Seth: so there was nothing that where she wanted to hurt me.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Lia Seth: Truly was ignorance.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. And it's I think it goes deeper than ignorance, because just learning that like, Oh, you know, here's some facts about the disabled experience doesn't always.
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Danny Gluch: It's not always enough to overcome that deep socialization of vulnerability and weakness and disability is bad, and you want to keep yourself away from it. It's somehow like a sickness.
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Lia Seth: Absolutely. And the thing is, it's not something that managers just need to learn. It's like it has to be unlearned because you think about that experience.
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Lia Seth: It's from
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Lia Seth: childhood. Any one of us who's used a mobility device in in the real world has had this experience where you're using one and a little kid will say something like Mom, what's wrong with them, and then and then it's quickly like, Hush, honey, like, don't you know? Don't be rude. Don't, don't ask questions.
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Lia Seth: If a kid wanted to ask me about my mobility device, I will happily talk about it.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Lia Seth: Parents immediately. It's like, Shush! Don't say anything. It's like it's immediately socialized as like it's the shameful thing we don't talk about it. We.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, it's othering. It's immediately othering of it needs. It goes back to that labeling that you were talking about earlier, Leah, but it's the the labeling of
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Cacha Dora: like the leper. Right you have to. You have to ostracize them and the that othering of like. Well, we don't talk about it. But you, you see, on the flip side you periodically will see stories that get viral, of a child who is curious, who does ask? And the parent is the one that's highlighted when they allow their child to ask.
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Cacha Dora: And if more people ask more questions.
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Cacha Dora: then that wouldn't happen, but because that shame is so ingrained socially.
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Cacha Dora: on such a deep, deep level.
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Cacha Dora: It just creates that vacuum of silence.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: And that's where I really think that this story highlights that it's more than just
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Danny Gluch: ignorance. It's not just. We can sit everybody down for an hour. Long training like there, there needs to be a deeper. Exactly what Leah said about a reconditioning yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Lia Seth: It's not just the learning, it's an unlearning, and which is much harder, especially when it's something that you've
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Lia Seth: been told and shown your whole life.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, it's a societal attitude towards the disabled and the sick.
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Lia Seth: Absolutely, and it just it. And that societal attitude really finds its way into the workplace. And there's just not enough done to combat that. So you end up with situations like this, where employees are told not to use their mobility devices illegally, where managers will get scared and not know what to do. I mean, I've disclosed a disability to a manager once. It's like, Hey, I just want to let you know I have this condition like.
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Lia Seth: and I wasn't even asking for accommodations at that time. I was just sort of like I want to give context of like. Here's why there might be some days where my focus is lower or I might be in pain, I might need to work from home. This was back when we were all in an office every day. I was telling my manager. You know, I had moved to a new team, my man. I was telling my manager this new manager, and he immediately, just like, put his hands up, and he's like we should talk to Hr, like, I want to bring Hr into this.
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Lia Seth: And I'm like.
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Lia Seth: okay, that's not the worst response to be like, I don't. I don't know how to respond to this. So like, let's bring in the expert.
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Lia Seth: But that didn't really make me feel great either.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Right.
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Marion: Yeah, no, no. And I think that's only compounded when it's an unseen disability or something that's not tangible. You know I
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Marion: if it's something that's blatantly obvious, that's 1 thing. But when you're discussing things, whether it be
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Marion: mental health related Ptsd, whatever schizophrenia or
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Marion: seizure disorder or even like myself. And Leah Eds, you know where Ehlers-danlos, where
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Marion: look fine, look great until you can't get out of bed one morning, because, you know you're you're
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Marion: lower back is not where it's meant to be so like stuff like that. And when you're trying to
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Marion: convey that and then explain it, we go into this mode of probably over explaining and over sharing, because we feel so
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Marion: uncomfortable in our own skin. Especially around people doubting us, and, you know are are concerned, that they're going to think that we're lying. We're making up that we're not being truthful, and all of that stuff. And then, on top of that.
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Marion: asking for the accommodations that you need, and
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Marion: my own sort of experience of doing that in the last couple of years. I'm certainly more
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Marion: confident at doing that. And I think that's through
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Marion: age and experience and becoming better advocating for yourself. And also, you know a lot of the people that that we socialize with. You know, Leah, you're you're definitely in that group now, you know our good friend Greer. You know, people who are very comfortable in their own skin, talking about their own experiences with disability, and I think that that definitely has made me a stronger advocate for myself, but
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Marion: not everyone has that, and especially people that are younger
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Marion: in their careers and just generally in age, haven't necessarily developed that ability to advocate for themselves. And that's really tough.
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Lia Seth: I mean in.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Lia Seth: Ableism is so real like it. And it's.
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Danny Gluch: Absolutely.
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Lia Seth: Mary, and I think I totally agree with you. Like with age. I've become much more comfortable and confident talking about it, and just being really, honestly pretty factual, just like, Hey, I experienced this, I live with this. This is what it's like for me. And this is what I need, and those are facts, and that's fine. Whereas in my twenties I felt like I had to like you said explain. I had to rationalize. I had to make other people comfortable about it, too.
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Lia Seth: and having an invisible condition is really hard. I actually bought a cane that I don't need just to have as an indicator, so that people will know. Oh, this is a person with disability! When I was commuting on a bus, and I was riding a bus I bought a cane so that some people would know. Oh, that's someone who needs a seat, because without it I was like, I'm 22 years old. I look perfectly healthy. You can't tell that standing up for 20 min on this bus ride is killing me.
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Danny Gluch: Oh.
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Danny Gluch: and also I think some of it comes with knowing what those accommodations that you need are immediately. You don't know those things right. What? What is it that actually allows you to work well? And oh, man, that that story of you talking about the liberty, the accessibility that the wheelchair gave you is going to stick with me for a while, because.
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Danny Gluch: as you were telling that I was like, Wow.
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Danny Gluch: I want people when they get accommodations at work to have that experience of like. Oh, my goodness! I had no idea I could do this much work. This is incredible.
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Danny Gluch: but instead, it becomes this like fight of like asking for accommodations? Isn't someone being excited that they can provide this amazing accessibility? It's more like, you're asking me for something is this fair? This is gonna cost us something. I don't know. We're gonna say no to that.
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Cacha Dora: If we do.
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Cacha Dora: Oh, my God!
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Cacha Dora: We have to do it for everyone.
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Danny Gluch: Oh!
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Lia Seth: I. Yeah, let's talk about fairness, because that is
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Lia Seth: such a good point like equality. It's not fairness and equality, not the same thing. And I think they get conflated a lot where people are like, oh, well, if we let you work from home, then we have to let everyone work from home. It's like, well, not necessarily, not. If you can explain to people. When you say, Okay, yeah, you can work from home 3 days a week. Everyone else is allowed to work from home one. And then people say, Well, why can Leah work from home so often? You can say she has a
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Lia Seth: health condition. She has a medical condition. You could work with me on like what I'm comfortable sharing with other people.
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Lia Seth: but
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Lia Seth: a lot of times it's like that's no one's business, you know. People will have different things, and you'll hear people who are
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Lia Seth: so nosy at work, and they're like, well, this person comes in late all the time, and that just doesn't seem fair. It's like.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Lia Seth: Well, are they staying later than you?
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Lia Seth: Because maybe they're doing as much work? Or maybe they're coming in late. But they're actually online from. Maybe they're not coming in until 10, but they're online at home from 5 30 to 9 in the morning, because they're dealing with an aging parent or a sick kid, or their own health, but they're still getting work done. Or maybe they've got something worked out with their manager where they're only working 36 HA week.
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Lia Seth: You may not know that, and you may not need to know that if you need to know that, then yes, need to know, absolutely share with the team. Hey? This person's not going to be available at these hours.
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Lia Seth: but you don't necessarily need to know everyone's accommodations as long as you can say. I trust my manager to have dealt with this in a way that is just.
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Lia Seth: not necessarily fair or equal, or exactly the same.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I'll quote John Rawls and his very famous book, Justice as Fairness.
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Danny Gluch: because to be fair is not to be equal. And like that was the whole thing is, it's not to be equal. And the idea of like someone asking for a standing desk because their back or their hips, or whatever it is, and to get the response, well, if we do that for you, we have to do that for everyone that is not fair, because they're trying to do a blanket equality that doesn't need to be there. That's a misconception of what fairness is.
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Lia Seth: Exactly. Yeah. It's not about fairness versus quality. It's really about equality versus equity, where you're saying, everyone's gonna have the same. Everyone's gonna be able to start at the same baseline. Because if you just say, Okay, everyone's gonna have exactly the same desk and then expect the same work out of everyone. But someone at that desk is saying, this is not comfortable for me. I can't work with this. Maybe someone is a wheelchair user, and they're like this desk is too high for me.
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Lia Seth: I actually need a lower desk. Yeah, you know, as a wheelchair user.
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Lia Seth: Okay, it's it's it's equal. Everyone has the same desk, but it's not equitable, because not everyone has the same experience.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, no one people, not everyone has the same starting line, and it shouldn't be that difficult to register.
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Danny Gluch: It's.
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Cacha Dora: But it is, but it is.
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Marion: It's also not linear. It's also not linear, like my. Only I mean, I've my, I'm dealing with this right now, right where you know I've gone through, and my employer has been fantastic. I've gone through an accommodation process. It's definitely not the easiest to go through, but we've got there. I have my trainee service animal signed off, as I can approval, to to bring her to work.
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Marion: but
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Marion: actually, in the last few weeks, like with the cold weather my joints have become so painful that I actually can't even control the service animal with the lead, because it hurts my hands too much
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Marion: so like I'm like.
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Marion: this is meant to help me. And actually, now it's hindering me. How do you even
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Marion: rationalize that in your own head? Never mind. Try to rationalize that with an employer who's
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Marion: provided the accommodation. And now you're like, I can't even use my accommodation at this moment in time, because it's more painful than it is helpful like it. It's so complicated. And it's not linear. And it's not
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Marion: easy to navigate. And I think that we don't even have
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Marion: the foundational blocks in place to help people
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Marion: navigate that and understand that. Never mind the wider workforce. It's so difficult. It really is.
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Danny Gluch: It really is, and it's made extra difficult, because a lot of these policies for accommodations and how employees are treated are written so that they can stand up in a court of law if they get sued. And they can say, Look, this is what we do.
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Danny Gluch: but oftentimes because of that they need to treat everyone equally. It needs to be these blanket statements as opposed to more, broader like, Hey, our goal for treating disabled people is to create an equitable experience like that's a lot squishier, and it doesn't always look the same for for everyone. And that's a lot harder to say that we've treated everyone fairly and justly
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Danny Gluch: in in court when someone will stand up and say, well, they got this accommodation. Why didn't I get mine? I'm suing for you know.
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Danny Gluch: whatever kind of treatment that you know that they deem it, it's I don't know. It's just so hard for everyone. It's hard for the people who are experiencing disabilities. It's hard for the managers. It's hard for the Hr. Teams.
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Lia Seth: Yeah, I think the hard thing is when I've seen Hr. Teams who again, they have good intentions, but they'll they'll treat it like this
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Lia Seth: like, you have to go through this like interrogation.
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Danny Gluch: The interactive process is, we need a rebranding for sure.
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Lia Seth: Yeah. And I mean again, this is I. And speaking of rebranding, I mean accommodations
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Lia Seth: kind of kind of a squishy word, I think it's it's got its place, and it's fine. For now the thing that I take real issue with is special treatment.
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Marion: I don't like that.
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Lia Seth: Because never everyone is gonna have different needs.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, it is not a 1. Size fits all.
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Lia Seth: Exactly. It's not special treatment, because you might say, Okay, well, this person has their like. They have regular blood work. They have to do every other Thursday at 3 o'clock, and so their accommodation is that they get to leave work at 2 30 every Thursday every other Thursday, whatever that looks like. But maybe someone else is like, well, this person has to do school pickups at 3 o'clock
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Lia Seth: every day.
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Lia Seth: Is that a special treatment? Is that an accommodation. Is that like, how do we classify that? It doesn't really matter? It's just
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Lia Seth: are people able to get what they need?
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Lia Seth: And I think that's where it gets tricky is when you're like, well, this person gets to leave early every day. How is that fair? Like? Okay? Well, again, that's between them and their manager. Are they getting the work done? Maybe they're getting online again later. Maybe they're starting their day earlier.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Lia Seth: Or maybe the manager has said like, No, it's fine. I trust you. You're someone who does good work. It's okay that you're offline early a couple of days and the only time it really should come up for anyone else on the team is, if they're saying like, I can't do my work because this person is not online, then there's something that needs
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Lia Seth: yeah, and literally.
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Lia Seth: if it's not affecting you and your work directly, it doesn't matter. And I really hate the term special treatment, because
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Lia Seth: everyone's going to have different things. Everyone.
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Marion: They are.
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Lia Seth: You might say, like, Oh, well, we have a team across 5 different time zones, but I'm in Eastern time. So I'm going to say that our meetings need to happen at 10 Am. I don't care that the person on the West Coast
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Lia Seth: is 7. It's 7 am. For them.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Lia Seth: You know it
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Lia Seth: is. That is that fair? Is that just? Is that equitable? Is that equal? It's really just like, think about the human side of it. And I think that's the thing that a lot of Hr teams forget is just
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Lia Seth: as much as we say, okay, we've got this interactive process. This is our accommodation process. This is how we go through things. This is how we're making sure we're treating everyone the same.
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Lia Seth: Are you treating people like humans first? st
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Lia Seth: Or are you treating them like
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Lia Seth: someone who's being interrogated and has to go through this intense.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Lia Seth: Treatment, just to be able to work from home an extra day a week.
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Marion: Which is, you know, we're big advocates of of managing leading through a bunch of different seas, 2 of which, being common sense and compassion, right.
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Lia Seth: You know.
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Marion: It's exactly that. It's the human piece. But also you just made a beautiful case. For why flexible working is absolutely critical because it helps us normalize a lot of this shit. It helps us normalize. It's okay to leave it 2, 30 every second Thursday to get your blood work done. You know, so long as your your work is is
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Marion: being delivered, it doesn't matter when it is, you know. It doesn't matter that you might need to leave at 3 every day to pick up the kids. But it's okay, because you hop on again at 7, and you close out the things that you haven't got finished. Like, let's normalize that stuff because that is living in the year of our Lord 2025. That is the reality. Right?
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Marion: It's like, yeah. And why.
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Cacha Dora: Because it's okay.
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Marion: So.
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Cacha Dora: It's okay. If it works for you, it doesn't have to work for everyone.
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Danny Gluch: Exactly.
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Cacha Dora: And and that's such a simple statement. But yet, for some reason, I think, Leah, when you were talking about like some of those nosy, nosy coworkers. There's this entitlement to need to know.
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Cacha Dora: That doesn't need to be there like. And and I think that that is a whole beast in and of itself.
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Lia Seth: Julie.
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Lia Seth: Like
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Lia Seth: also I I would love to see more manager training on like how to shut down questions like that, and basically say, like, Hey.
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Lia Seth: worrying about this is not your job. It is my job. And I've gotten so.
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Cacha Dora: Exactly. Thank you.
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Danny Gluch: Someone comes to the manager.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: someone comes to the manager with feedback on what I'm doing at 3 Pm. When I'm going to get blood work, or whatever like. The manager should have feedback for that person. It's none of your goddamn business.
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Lia Seth: And again saying that in a way that is still, you know.
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Cacha Dora: Saying.
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Lia Seth: Psychological safety, and all of that.
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Danny Gluch: I think that this is where the the hybrid and remote working is really interesting. In how there was a huge uptick in the employment and quality of employment of disabled people during the pandemic.
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Danny Gluch: And part of it is obviously wow. They got to get rid of commutes, which immediately makes it hard for a big segment of disabled people.
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Danny Gluch: but I think it also got rid of the policing it. It took them out of the panopticon of always having their coworkers, seeing everything that they were needing to do for themselves, and to be their best selves at work which looks different than it does for non-disabled people, and because they were able to escape that they felt a lot more free. And yeah, the quality of work went up.
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Lia Seth: How much my life has been better now that I'm working from home completely, because sometimes I just need to lie on the floor between meetings. Sometimes I need to just like.
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Lia Seth: go outside and like.
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Lia Seth: do some stretches. Sometimes I need like literally just lying down makes a huge difference. I actually had a manager who once asked when I was explaining like, Hey, this is the condition I have. Sometimes I have these sort of experiences, and he actually said like, would it be helpful if you're in a bad situation? You kind of just like, come to me and I can. I can give you my office for 10 min, so you can lie down. I was like, yeah, that would be amazing.
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Danny Gluch: Wow!
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Lia Seth: So like, it doesn't have to necessarily be this like hugely detailed like, okay, well, in those cases you'll have to submit this request in this form to be able to. It's like, sometimes I need to lie down for 10 min, and I can just go to my manager and be like. Can I lie down in the couch in your office for 10 min, and then I'll get back to work.
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Cacha Dora: Sometimes support doesn't have to be performative. Support can be support.
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Marion: Or or sometimes it's just as simple like, like, so for me, you know, I'm I typically
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Marion: office in the mornings home in the afternoons, because by the time the afternoons come around my pain is kicked in I need a painkiller. I can't drive when I'm on painkillers, so I have to be at home. But there's times that
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Marion: when I'm in the office in those mornings I have a yoga mat in my drawer. I pull it out, and my colleagues will see me lying on the floor right by my desk on my yoga mat, and they're like Oh, there she goes, you know, and they're laughing and and like I'm laughing. But you know, like we have to, I do that I could take my yoga mat and slink into a meeting room and and do it there.
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Marion: But why?
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Marion: Why, like I'm I'm not. I'm showing people that it's okay. Here's our Hr. Leader. She's lying on the floor, feet up on on the chair, and she's stretching out her lower back because she's in agony right? And we can see that.
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Lia Seth: That's cool. Right? That's cool. And also being able to
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Lia Seth: say, like, if you're fully remote to be like, Hey, I'm going to be camera off. Today, I'm like dealing with some pain and having that normalized and having a manager say, like, I'm sorry you're dealing with that. I hope it passes soon, and not it being an interrogation like, well, are you really okay? And.
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Cacha Dora: Are you really working from home? Are you at home?
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Lia Seth: Questioning like, well, if you're so sick that you can't be on camera, then maybe you should just take a sick day. It's like, let that person judge like. Sometimes I'm like I can totally do my work, but I can't be perceived today.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Lia Seth: And like, let that person know their own thing. And like I said, I think exactly what you said, Kasha. It's like support can just be support. It doesn't have to be a whole formalized thing, and.
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Marion: Exactly.
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Lia Seth: Those small things can make the biggest difference. But I've also seen managers who will try to
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Lia Seth: make these grand changes that end up being very superficial, and there's no meaning behind it. And the example that I'll give of this because it always makes me laugh.
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Lia Seth: I worked with a leader
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Lia Seth: who would consistently use the word crazy. And I'm guilty of this myself. I know a lot of folks with mental illnesses find that word very stigmatizing. They don't like it. I am working to get it out of my vocabulary. It's hard to do, I admit, and.
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Marion: It is.
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Lia Seth: This leader was a consistent user of this word, and she was getting consistent feedback from employees like, Hey, when you use that word, it makes us feel really unsafe. There are people on the team who deal with mental conditions. A lot of our customers deal with mental conditions like this is something that's really stigmatizing and hard to hear. Can you please work on curbing your use of that word? Not even like Hey, cut it out completely.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Lia Seth: And here are some other words you can use instead of saying, like, Wow, this year has been crazy. This year has been wild. It's been so unpredictable. Here are some alternates. There's all these ways. You can do it.
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Lia Seth: And she would hear that feedback would take no action on it.
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Lia Seth: But what she did do
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Lia Seth: is we had our, you know, monthly, all hands meeting company, wide meeting, town hall team sync, whatever you want to call it.
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Lia Seth: And they changed it to from all hands to all company meeting, and the announcement that she gave was calling it all hands is not inclusive to people who don't have hands.
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Cacha Dora: Oh, my!
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Lia Seth: I feel like her heart was in the right place, but she was still consistently using words that her team was telling her were hurtful.
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Cacha Dora: It just sounds like a level of passive aggressive that is
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Cacha Dora: the beyond the pale. In my opinion I have a hard time assuming positive intent with that story. I'm sorry I'm gonna say it.
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Cacha Dora: There.
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Lia Seth: I I always want to see the best in people. I've been accused of having a Pollyanna attitude. I will. I will take that.
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Lia Seth: I I really want to believe that she had good intent there, but her like her heart was in the right place, but her mind was not just. It.
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Marion: Yeah. But then we also.
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Lia Seth: Even if it was like a good intent, like, even if there was like, Hey, this is feedback. I've heard from someone else, and like this is something I want to do like.
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Lia Seth: It wasn't meaningful at all in the company, because she wasn't making the change that people were actually asking for.
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Lia Seth: I agree, have made a difference to people's psychological safety.
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Marion: Yeah. But then I and I'm gonna call it this other elephant. We see an uptick of that sort of type of passive, aggressive comment.
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Marion: which let's face. It is being inflamed by our current political climate. Right? You know that the use or not, or not using pronouns, for example, is a good example of that right and so I think that.
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Marion: regardless of whether it was intentional or not, it's still gonna really land poorly with a massive amount of people in society. For those reasons, whether they're, you know, able or not, it doesn't matter. It's still we're in a time where things are very much inflamed, and I think there's a certain amount of political triggering in there as well. So it's just yucky all round, isn't it? It really is. Yeah.
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Lia Seth: Yeah. And so it was one of those where
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Lia Seth: I don't know what her like goal was with renaming that what the leadership team in general what their goal was, if it was to kind of foster inclusion, or to make them seem more inclusive. But it just.
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Lia Seth: There was no trust in the organ in the leadership. After that, like, there was just no trust that it's like, okay, well, this is a leadership team who has my back. This is someone who is an ally to me. This is someone I can feel safe around.
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Lia Seth: and I've seen a lot of that where it's like they'll they'll do the performative thing.
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Lia Seth: but then they won't make the real change, like I've seen other leaders who will make a point of saying like, I'm not going to use these words. I'm not going to use the word crazy. I'm not going to use the word stupid. We'll call out other people who do it. We'll make a point of it, but then we'll have like a terrible accommodations process.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Lia Seth: It doesn't really matter what it is. There's if there's no real impact behind it, then the result is this is not an inclusive or accessible workspace.
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Danny Gluch: So do you think there's a key difference in mindset or philosophy behind the people who clearly they think they're doing right right? They don't think like Aha! I'm getting by and allowing myself to get away with this by, you know, calling it all team instead of all hands. So what is it you think that
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Danny Gluch: is keeping them from seeing it like? What? What's the difference between this group that still isn't quite getting it? And the the group of people who maybe is still working towards and showing that they are getting it.
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Lia Seth: I think it's a lot of it is. Ableism towards certain groups is just saying like, Oh, well, like, it's really not that bad that I'm doing this thing. But like this, maybe they they get the feedback from someone. Someone who's like above them. Or maybe they're like a mentor shared that they've taken this feedback, and they're like, Oh, well, I'll take that feedback from my mentor. But the team below me who's saying that this language isn't good.
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Lia Seth: They don't really know they don't, really.
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Lia Seth: And so there's there is this like leveling that happens where you'll see people who will take the feedback from
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Lia Seth: above, but not take the feedback from the teams that report to them. And I think that a that level of Ableism is like a whole, different.
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Cacha Dora: It just sounds like a whole ass. Introduction to bias on a whole other level.
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Lia Seth: Yup. And again, I I appreciate that the manager training happens every year. It is not good enough.
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Marion: Hmm, yeah.
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Danny Gluch: It sounds. It sounds like there's a level of arrogance of, unless it affects me. I don't really have to deal with it. And my mentor telling me I need to
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Danny Gluch: deal with. It is very different from the people below me. It's like the people who don't care about gun violence until, like the school shooting is in their community. And then all of a sudden, they're like, Oh, wait! Maybe we should rethink gun laws. And I kind of feel like it's that a little bit like, oh, I'll use the r word until it turns out that you know I have a kid or a cousin with mental disabilities.
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Lia Seth: Absolutely. I think, people. There is this very individualistic
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Lia Seth: bent to, I think, American society in general, which is
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Lia Seth: deeply concerning to me. And again a whole other topic. But there's just not enough of a community focus. I think people don't care enough about other people. They think they do. They believe that they do, but it's really, truly the like. Well, if this doesn't affect me directly, I'm not going to do anything about it.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: And I need to verify.
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Lia Seth: Arm other people. As long as my life is easy.
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Marion: Yeah. And that's that is deep rooted in culture. I mean, that's measured. By hofsted and dimensions of culture, that Americans culture is individualistic and also masculine. We'll not get into that because that's a throwback to another episode that we've done. But yeah, it's Mr. Zuckerberg. But yeah, it's it is very deep rooted. And you
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Marion: that doesn't change
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Marion: easily or overnight, or maybe at all in some cases. And so how do we, as professionals in the workplace, and Hr. Professionals and just
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Marion: nice people that want to work with, you know, work with people and and all types of people, and and make everyone feel comfortable and and like they belong. And they're they're included.
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Marion: How do we navigate the deep rootedness of of these things in society, and generally create a place where everyone feels like they can belong and thrive.
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Lia Seth: Yeah, I will say, like, it's, it's it's old. It's played out in a lot of ways. But it is so true that, like the 1st step is realizing you have a problem. I think just the awareness. So many people don't even have the awareness that they're doing anything wrong, or that they're doing anything hurtful or harmful. I think that's step one.
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Lia Seth: And once we get to that point, then there can be a greater conversation around. Okay, here is the better way to go through these process to build these processes to not harm people. But a lot of people don't even realize that they're doing it. Ableism is just not talked about. No one knows what it is, no one knows what it looks like.
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Lia Seth: so how can you stop doing it if you don't even know that it's happening. In the 1st place.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, it's kind of difficult when you think about
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Cacha Dora: everything that Marion just said around how American society is
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Cacha Dora: formulated with between that individualism aspect. And then, when you look at that equality versus equity portion that we talked about earlier.
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Danny Gluch: Implicated.
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Cacha Dora: It makes it so complicated, and then on top of it. Now you have to add someone having a level of self awareness to actually be introspective enough to ask themselves the questions on, are they actually being there for people, or are they doing what they need for them like? Then it's just like, you know.
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Cacha Dora: I'm not going to say that you're going to give someone a quarter life crisis or anything like that. But it does require a huge amount of introspection.
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Cacha Dora: But I think it's completely impactful, important, and like
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Cacha Dora: God, could you imagine just the incredible feelings of being able to be be better for people if they did
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Cacha Dora: be better for people.
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Lia Seth: Yeah, everyone really wants to believe that they're an ally. But
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Lia Seth: I think people also don't realize that it's like, there's layers to this. It's like, Yeah, I'm so aware of all of these like issues and concerns that people of color deal with. And I've really made a change to my life. And I'm really making a point of like shopping at black owned businesses and no longer supporting these like racist organizations like, Okay, good. That's a good start. There's more to that. And also there's more than just racism.
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Lia Seth: There's all these other things to address, and it's easy to really become overwhelmed by that. I I get that. I know it is. But
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Lia Seth: my big concern is Ableism is something that people don't even know how to define. They don't know how to recognize it, and.
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Cacha Dora: The meeting.
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Lia Seth: Have to start at square one with it, just like what is it?
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Lia Seth: Do? A real, real self reflection of like, how have I been ableist in the past. How have I not been an ally to disabled people? Or how have I maybe been a performative ally to disabled people? And
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Lia Seth: I will say internalized ableism is something that even we, as disabled people, can experience like. There are times that I will have that immediate response to things, and just be like, Oh, well, there's no way that they can like. I don't know someone else's experience. I'm disabled.
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Lia Seth: but I my disability is different from someone else's, even from someone else's, with the same conditions that I have. Their experience isn't going to be the same as mine, and so I can't know what they're going.
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Danny Gluch: And that's such an important part, because if the Hr. Teams right, they might experience, and the managers might just experience like this one condition. And oh, this is what this person needed to be their best self at work.
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Danny Gluch: And then, 10 years later, someone with the same condition comes up, and it's like, Oh, great! We've got this settled. Here you go. This is all the stuff.
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Danny Gluch: and it might not fit. And again, that's that's why I really want to get away from the language of treating people the same and and equality just full stop.
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Danny Gluch: Because what we're really looking for is that equity, and I want to know what every individual, whether they fit into one of the disabled categories or not. Right, they might just be caretakers. They might just be whatever themselves.
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Danny Gluch: I want to know what every individual needs to be their best self at work, and I want all the managers to be working towards that.
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Danny Gluch: and I think that would be.
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Marion: And.
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Danny Gluch: Pretty decent place to start.
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Marion: Yeah. And I think that when we talk about equity in that way, doesn't it feel like a punch in the face to have our governing body remove equity from, you know their
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Marion: belief system from their mandate. I
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Marion: I'll go with that. So yeah, yeah.
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Danny Gluch: It's awful. Equity is what had the teeth of change? And they got rid of the teeth.
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Marion: Yeah, indeed.
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Lia Seth: Absolutely. It's just it's it's it's the action part of it.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Lia Seth: And part of it.
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Danny Gluch: But thank you so much, Leah, for for all your stories, your insight, your leadership on this. This has just been so eye-opening and just I literally found myself slack, jawed multiple times today. And I love learning like this. This is fantastic. Awareness is such a big part of this movement. And thank you so much for for being on here and helping spread this awareness and these great practices that people can start to
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Danny Gluch: start to do, to hopefully have some some actual, meaningful change going forward.
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Lia Seth: Yeah, you got it. Thank you guys so much for having me here. It's been a blast getting to chat.
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Cacha Dora: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: And also you're working with us. And the fearless Px, on rethinking disability as well as our friends at the performance, innovation collective and the invisible condition
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Danny Gluch: and be on the lookout, everyone on Linkedin for our posts. On that, we're going to have a series of podcasts really diving super deep into all of the issues, maybe not all of them, but as many of the issues as we can speak well on. We're having experts on to talk about disability in the workplace. We're really wanting to rethink disability.
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Danny Gluch: The the slogan is from red tape to real access, and I think that's such a cool
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Danny Gluch: motto, that that you talked about a lot today of getting people just like we. We don't need all of these policies and performativity. What we need is real accommodations, and I just think that's amazing. And I'm really proud to be working on this project with you, as I know Kasha and Marion are as well.
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Cacha Dora: Yes, 100%.
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Lia Seth: It's an honor. Thanks.
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Danny Gluch: Thank you all for listening. Be sure to reach out to us at elephant@thefearlesspx.com. You can find all of us on Linkedin, including Leah. We'll have her Linkedin in the show notes. Thank you. All. Leave us a 5 star review. Leave us some feedback on what elephants you want us to cover, and also feel free to find us and become and come on as a guest. You can schedule time with us. We'd love to hear from you. Thank you all so much. Have a great day.
