The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
Burnout Isn’t a Personal Failure – It’s a Systemic Sh*tshow with Cassandra Babilya
Burnout isn’t a personal failure—it’s a systemic problem.
Ever been told to do more with less? Yeah, us too. And we’re calling bullshit.
In this episode of The Elephant in the Org, Danny, Marion, and Cacha sit down with the one and only Cassandra Babilya, creator of Make Work Suck Less, career coach, employee experience leader, and oh yeah—ex-spy (which is possibly the coolest career pivot ever).
🔥 We break down the burnout math behind why your workload keeps increasing while your headcount shrinks.
🔥 We expose how toxic performance reviews and forced rankings keep companies running their people into the ground.
🔥 We dig into why so many people feel trapped in jobs that are killing them—and what to do about it.
Cassandra brings the receipts on how burnout works, how companies create it (spoiler: it’s not accidental), and what needs to change. Whether you're a leader looking to break the cycle or an employee wondering why you feel like absolute garbage by Thursday, this episode is a must-listen.
🔗 Resources & Links
Connect with Cassandra Babilya:
➡️ LinkedIn
➡️ Make Work Suck Less – Newsletter
Read More from Cassandra:
📖 We’re All Burned Out
📖 All the Ways Burnout Sucks
📖 Six Ways Your Job is Driving Burnout
📖 The Burnout Off-Ramp: 10 Ways to Reclaim Your Energy
📖 How to Harness More Inspiration & Motivation at Work
Cassandra’s Book:
You Got This: Annual Intentions. Weekly Reflection. Daily Gratitude
Connect with Us:
- Follow The Fearless PX on Linkedin at The Fearless PX
- Reach out to Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlesspx.com
- You can find all episodes of The Elephant in the Org here.
We encourage you to subscribe and leave a review if you found this episode enlightening!
From April 2024, all new episodes of The Elephant In the Org will be posted bi-weekly.
Music Credits:
Opening and closing theme by The Toros.
Production Credits:
Produced by The Fearless PX, Edited by Marion Anderson.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are exclusively those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations’ official policy or position.
S2 EP11: Burnout Isn’t a Personal Failure – It’s a Systemic Sh*tshow
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Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the elephant in the org, everyone. I'm Danny Glutch, and I'm joined, as always, by my co-hosts. Cacha Dora
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Cacha Dora: Hello!
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Danny Gluch: And Marion Anderson.
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Marion: Good morning!
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Danny Gluch: And today we have a fantastic new guest, Cassandra, Babilya Cassandra. Why don't you introduce yourself to our audience?
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Cassandra Babilya: Hi! Y'all, I'm Cassandra Babilya. I'm the creator of make work, suck less. I'm a leader in internal comms and employee experience and tech with a background at the CIA, which I'm sure you all want to know about later.
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Danny Gluch: Are you allowed to say.
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Cacha Dora: That's.
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Cassandra Babilya: Yes, I am actually.
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Danny Gluch: Oh, that's amazing!
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Cacha Dora: That elevator pitch for anyone would make anyone be like. I'm listening, and here and I'm listening.
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Marion: Yeah, I want to know if waterboarding is real. But we can come back to that.
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Danny Gluch: 40.
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Cacha Dora: African, Ortman.
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Danny Gluch: Is waterboarding a part of employee. Burnout? No, our topic today. Which is so great because our whole goal here, as Cassandra or Cassandra really stated, is to make work suck less, and a big part of what makes work suck is burnout. So we wanted to put a magnifying glass on the systemic issue of burnout, not the individual problem of people burning out.
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Danny Gluch: And I think that's a really big topic that needs to be covered. And what a great guest to have on.
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Marion: Yay, so.
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Cassandra Babilya: Thank you.
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Marion: How did we get here? How did how did this become such a systemic shit show? Tell us.
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Cassandra Babilya: Okay. So I'm gonna I'm gonna launch into something that I call employee experience math. You know. There's girl Math. There's boy math. This is employee experience math, and it stems from
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Cassandra Babilya: corporations unending desire to increase profits and productivity exponentially year over year, forever and ever. Amen.
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Cassandra Babilya: While squeezing out the most they can get from their workers with disregard to the end, result to the the mental health and well-being of those humans that deliver those profits and productivity for them.
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Cassandra Babilya: So employee experience math goes like this. Let's say you have on a team. You have 10 people.
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Cassandra Babilya: 10 people. And the expected output of that group of 10 is 10 units, but at the end of year one that team experiences the vitality curve. Thank you, Jack Walsh, where they stack rank and they get rid of the bottom 10%. So we get rid of the bottom. One person
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Cassandra Babilya: that year at the end of the year the organization also decides that
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Cassandra Babilya: we need to increase productivity. So we're going to set a goal for the following year to increase output by 10%. So you have 9 people expected to produce 11 units the following year.
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Cassandra Babilya: The following year. You have one person who is going to leave because they're a top performer, and they don't like the extra work that's been put on their shoulders to cover for the extra productivity expectations of them. So you leave. You lose the top performer.
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Cassandra Babilya: You have another person that gets removed from that stack ranking bottom.
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Cassandra Babilya: and they didn't decide to increase the goals for the next year by another 10%. So now you have 7 people expected to produce 12 units. Do you see where I'm going?
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Cassandra Babilya: Oh, in Mexico
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Cassandra Babilya: you have 2 middle performers who are burned out, and they decide to go somewhere else because they cannot take it anymore. You have one who takes a leave of absence, and it happens to be the manager because they are over managing. They feel terrible about what they've been put onto their team.
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Cassandra Babilya: So now you have 4 people who are middling at best expected to produce
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Cassandra Babilya: 13 units the following year. That team just collapses. They can't do anymore. That
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Cassandra Babilya: is what causes the burnout. That's where the burnout comes from about 30% of fortune. 500 companies these days use that stack ranking vitality curve where every year they get rid of the bottom. 5 to 10% of employees. However, recently, they've been getting rid of those bottom 5%, 5 to 10% and not replacing them with new workers. So they're increasing the stress and expectations on everyone who is stuck behind.
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Marion: Hmm!
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Marion: I think what makes that even more complicated if you think about
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Marion: the weird phenomena that we've gone through kind of mid covid till now, where we
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Marion: particularly in anything digital Ecom just exploded during Covid. And so everyone over hired. And then, you know, then we went through this weird thing of having way too many expensive people. And then everyone went. Oh, shit! We have way. Too many expensive people. Now we've got to like get the most out of it and get rid of a bunch of them. So like you throw that into the mix on top of the basic principle of of
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Marion: you know this math?
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Marion: What a mess that is right! And humans are frazzled and scared
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Marion: and completely overwhelmed. Gosh, what a what a time to be alive!
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I.
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Cassandra Babilya: Good.
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Danny Gluch: It's really rough. And I think that
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Danny Gluch: companies can fall into this trap, even if they're not using the hey, we're we're laying off our bottom performers. Hey? We're using stacked rankings. I think they can still fall into this trap of chasing the arrow. Go up to the right all the time. That just in itself seems to be enough is, Hey, team, we have this new software that we're spending a hundred $1,000 on.
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Danny Gluch: We need to now get $200,000 worth of value out of it, and it's like, Wait. But we didn't ask for that. We don't want to learn a new thing, and while we're learning it, we're not going to be as good at producing like there's a whole ecosystem that's kind of like feeding itself of Oh, hey! They're offering us this, and it's going to help us produce more. It's going to help us meet our numbers.
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Danny Gluch: And and the the fact that the people have to like actually function in that environment just isn't even thought of.
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Danny Gluch: And it's it's brutal.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cassandra Babilya: There's it's not just the. It's not just the big corporations that do the stack ranking. You're right. There is a there's an unnecessary
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Cassandra Babilya: level of expectation put on employees today that they have to be the best they have to do the most. They all have to be on this trajectory that leads them to the top. They all have to like
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Cassandra Babilya: be extraordinary. We can't all be extraordinary, and that leads us to only the top
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Cassandra Babilya: people, you know that same group of like 5 to 10 every time they're the ones who get the rewards. Those are the ones who get the recognition that the ones who get the promotions. They're the ones who get any sort of celebration at work, but everybody else is also working their butts off. They may just not be the top, they still deserve recognition for the value they bring to the company.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: we talk a lot about how in in that same line of thought on how you have a lot of people who just never want to be a manager. They want to be the best as an individual contributor.
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Cacha Dora: and that doesn't mean that they're like, just because they don't want a promotion doesn't mean that they're not actually exceptional in their role. And and I think that that chasing of exception of exception, I'm sorry of being exceptional.
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Cacha Dora: that's such a, you create a high pressure internal feeling. And then, if you're then multiplying that by a team of people using your team of 10 as the example
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Cacha Dora: when the environment starts creating gaps. That's when people start questioning things. That's when people will have those breakdowns. Because now my exceptional didn't really matter? Why have I tried so hard? Why have I pushed myself so hard? If the system actually, that I thought cared about it didn't really care.
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Cacha Dora: And then you end up with people needing a leave of absence.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, so is it about recognition? Cassandra, what what do you think is is missing there with, you know, the whole team of of 9 trying really hard, but only only the top are going to get recognized. Is is that a big contributing factor? What do you think's going on.
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Cassandra Babilya: Yeah. So the work of the burnout Queen. I don't know if she goes by the burnout Queen, but that's what I think of her as Dr. Christina Maslock. She's the one who's been doing the research into burnout for the past. I don't know 25 years, and there are 6 key contributors that a workplace
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Cassandra Babilya: drives, how they drive a culture that drives burnout recognition or lack of recognition is one of them, for sure. And that's also tied to fairness when you feel like there's an unfair part of your culture. So
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Cassandra Babilya: only that one person gets all of the recognition, and everything you bring to the table is just completely ignored, or only that one person you feel like you're given all of the really crappy assignments, or you have to take on the bulk of the work because no one else can do it that feels unfair. Another part is unsustainable workload. That's the biggest one. It contributes to that exhaustion, that tiredness, a completely depleted feeling.
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Cassandra Babilya: Another figure is lack of control. So adults like autonomy, I want to have control over what my day to day looks like I want to have control and flexibility over how? Where, when I get my work done, I want to have control over
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Cassandra Babilya: what my career. Trajectory looks like
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Cassandra Babilya: another part is values mismatch. So when you feel like you are working for an evil organization, it takes a lot to compartmentalize your home life and your work life. And we're as humans. We're not meant to be able to do that.
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Cassandra Babilya: So that drains us even more. That contributes to the exhaustion when we're thinking, man, I really hate what this company is doing. But I I need the I need the paycheck. I need the health insurance. I need to pay food for my family. Yeah?
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Cassandra Babilya: And finally, it's community. So if you have an organization that drives a really cutthroat culture where they are pitting one employee against another and stack rank, and everyone feels like I can't collaborate with them because I need the.
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Cassandra Babilya: I need the recognition. I need the credit because I need to keep my job.
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Cassandra Babilya: All of that contributes to burnout burnout is not just.
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Cassandra Babilya: I am overworked. I'm really tired. That is the biggest part of burnout. But there are 2 other factors about burnout in order to be like clinically.
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Cassandra Babilya: not diagnosed, but diagnosed with burnout. You have to have exhaustion. The cynicism. So, Danny, that's like contempt for your role. Feeling like there is.
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Cassandra Babilya: There is no connection to me and my work, my team, my leaders, this mission anymore. It's contempt. And it is the feeling like.
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Cassandra Babilya: I am not doing a good job feeling like you have lost all of your confidence in yourself and what you can, what you can do when you have all 3 of those experiences happening at the same time. That's burnout.
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Cassandra Babilya: But when colloquially, people say I'm burnt out. A lot of them really do just mean I'm exhausted or I'm I'm feeling really cynical about my job right now, or I'm feeling like a failure.
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Cassandra Babilya: But that's okay. It's okay to self-diagnose as burnout. If that's what you're feeling just when we think about it. From all of the factors that go into it, and how a workplace culture comes together to drive that.
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Marion: You.
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Cassandra Babilya: We're looking at those 3 factors and the 6.
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Cassandra Babilya: I don't know indicators that go into building that burnout bubble.
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Marion: Hmm something. When you were talking there. I was just having
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Marion: thoughts back to another episode that we did with our friend Kim minnick about performance, management, right.
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Cassandra Babilya: I love Kim.
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Marion: Isn't she the best? Isn't she just the biggest ray of sunshine? She's amazing.
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Cassandra Babilya: Yes.
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Marion: And
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Marion: you know, one of the best titles of an episode ever don't rate. Your people, like a yelp review, I thought that was great. But
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Marion: we talked about how performance management you know. The way that it's still done is how it was done. Designed in the 19 thirties in a very different work time, very different work era. And we're still doing it the same way. And
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Marion: you know, as we as we're kind of in that performance. Appraisal window right now, and that goddamn bloody bell curve that still exists, even though we say, Oh, it's just a recommendation. No, it's not. It's bullshit. It's there, and it's not going anywhere, because no one can think of anything different, right?
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Marion: But when I think about what you were talking about, and then overlaying the bell Curve bullshit on top of it.
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Marion: What
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Marion: what a perfect storm of how to really magnify and intensify those feelings of failure not being good enough to know that you've tried your best, but purely down to financial management and budget. You're being told that you're less than
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Marion: okay. Like isn't just.
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Cacha Dora: A game of numbers.
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Marion: It really is.
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Cacha Dora: About you and your actual capability.
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Marion: Absolutely not. And and when you were talking there, that's what I thought of, and I felt sick.
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Marion: My stomach.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cassandra Babilya: Yeah, everyone is. Everyone is stuck in that that cycle of
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Cassandra Babilya: of shame and not enough and trying to do too much. And then feeling like
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Cassandra Babilya: you know what it feels like as a manager to have to
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Cassandra Babilya: look at your team, who are all great performers, and say that person, I guess I have to sacrifice them to the
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Cassandra Babilya: shareholder. Guts like it's it's horrible.
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Danny Gluch: It sounds so much like the old ancient religions of we have to sacrifice this someone or the rain gods aren't gonna come like we literally need to sacrifice this one to protect the 9 when you frame it that way. It is just astonishing.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, the thing that kept rattling around my mind as you were explaining
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Cacha Dora: the multiple factors that go into it was
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Cacha Dora: thinking on the places where you hear a lot of people say, well, like that they're not happy with their job, that the all of those things that are really weighing them down, but they're staying for the people.
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Cacha Dora: and that I feel like, if you start hearing that that tells you where the systemic that there's a systemic issue in an organization. If they're already feeling cynical, they're already genuinely tired, burnt out, feeling the physicality of it.
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Cacha Dora: doubting their ability, having the numbers starting to stack against them, and the only thing keeping them there, if the only thing keeping them there is like 3 people. Then
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Cacha Dora: you know that twig is gonna break so easy and.
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Cassandra Babilya: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: You know what it means to create a systemic issue?
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Cacha Dora: It doesn't happen overnight, obviously.
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Cacha Dora: To make it systemic. But, like all of those factors. I just kept thinking about workplaces where it's like, well, I'm really here for the people it's like, but what about you? What do you need you. Those people aren't gonna sustain you.
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Cacha Dora: You need something else. Right? Like, what is that? What does that mean when you start thinking about all of those factors in a systemic way that then impact a person, it turns into a wheel.
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Cassandra Babilya: Yeah. And it's not just the it's not just the system within organization. We're all looking. We also have to look at the macroeconomic factors of the system of
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Cassandra Babilya: the market.
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Cassandra Babilya: So you have. Let's say you have a leader, a manager who has a large team, and
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Cassandra Babilya: they let's call her she. She is staying around for the people because she wants to keep
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Cassandra Babilya: them safe. She wants to protect as many of them for as long as she possibly can.
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Cassandra Babilya: What she is doing is
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Cassandra Babilya: Kasha to your point, disregarding her own well-being for longer staying around for longer. What that means is that for her recovery from that burnout is going to take that much longer years, literally years.
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Cassandra Babilya: But when you layer on top of that.
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Cassandra Babilya: the macroeconomic factors of a job market right now, where people cannot leave, they are stuck in place. The feeling of being trapped
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Cassandra Babilya: is a multiplier of the burnout for everybody.
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Danny Gluch: No.
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Danny Gluch: you know, this is something that I've wondered for a while if you have any insight to how this works globally, but in in the United States with healthcare being tied to our jobs. I feel like it. It creates this burden of feeling stuck.
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Danny Gluch: because not only is it, you know. Oh, it's hard to find a job, but that means it's hard to pay for, like any sort of health insurance. It feels like intensified here, and I'm wondering if if that bears out in some of the numbers on burnout rates, or anything.
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Cassandra Babilya: Oh, I'm I haven't looked at the numbers
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Cassandra Babilya: globally. So Apjc and Emea, compared to the Americas, however anecdotally, I can tell you. Colleagues
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Cassandra Babilya: from Emea and Apjc. Australia in particular, jumps out at me the social safety nets. There are more robust. So not only is your healthcare not tied to your job. There's likely paid childcare that you're going to get paid. Maternity leave that you will get, even if your job does not offer it, whereas here in the States.
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Cassandra Babilya: You need to be in a role for
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Cassandra Babilya: usually a year before they will pay for your maternity leave. And so, if you're planning on having a family, and you happen to work for the only 1 3rd of companies that offer paid maternity leave. You have to stay there
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Cassandra Babilya: until you're done having kids. Otherwise you could hop to a new job, find yourself pregnant. And then, without the the child, the childcare, or the maternity leave.
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Danny Gluch: There's a lot
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Cassandra Babilya: There's a lot that goes into supporting families and women in particular that we don't have here. That is not a stressor in the financial stressor in the background for our colleagues around the world.
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Marion: Yeah, I mean, I'm being a Brit. Right? So I can talk to that for sure. And we have
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Marion: public health care, which is certainly not without its problems. It is vastly under, resourced and over subscribed. But at least I know that if I'm at home and I walk out in front of a bus.
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Marion: I'm going to be cared for right. And I you know I'm not having to be thinking, worrying about having insurance
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Marion: Similarly, with having a baby.
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Marion: You know the maternity leave provision in the Uk is light years away from what we have here, and the protections that we have that go alongside that
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Marion: so absolutely that that feeling of being handcuffed
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Marion: because of the job
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Marion: isn't necessarily the same, but it still doesn't negate the fact that bills have to be paid.
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Marion: Kids have to be fed, you know. Cars need to be
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Marion: comfortable of petrol, as we would call it, like all of that. So the the it it it is different, and it's not different.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, we call it like, I remember hearing I think the phrase I've always heard when it's connected to your benefits here. It's not just about pay, or anything like that is the golden handcuffs right? Where, like you could leave.
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Cacha Dora: you could try and leave but the but at the end of the sentence just gets bigger and bigger and bigger
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Cacha Dora: because of that benefit package. And whatever it is, right, it's gonna be different for everyone, on what's making people stay most of the time. It's the healthcare, but it could genuinely be
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Cacha Dora: education reimbursement.
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Cacha Dora: Not every company offers education reimbursement, and you got to finish the program that you're in.
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Cacha Dora: You know, there's so many different things that keep you, but that also just weighs down on every single factor that you listed on. You know how you feel weighed down because you do feel trapped and feeling trapped never results in a net positive.
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Danny Gluch: No.
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Marion: And I wanted to ask you about this. This idea of of having contempt or cynicism for your work.
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Danny Gluch: Because I don't think that gets talked about ever. In fact, when you brought it up, I was like I lit up because I've never heard it before. And I really want to hear your insights, because when I think of this contempt or cynicism for your work, it's it's really kind of what what you ladies were just talking about, where it doesn't feel worth my time or energy to work here, because I'm either not being recognized, not being,
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Danny Gluch: you know, given benefits not being paid, or the actual work is just like, ugh! I just. It's not worth my time or effort. Right? It's that that feeling of disgust, contempt. Right? You're just so cynical about the work you're doing.
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Danny Gluch: How like? How can we help people have those words and identify like. Oh, my goodness, this is what I'm feeling like.
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Danny Gluch: boy like. It seems so deep to make that value judgment about your work, and I don't see how organizations pull out of that sort of like death spiral. If some, if if their work is, is seen that way by some, there must just be something really horrible going on.
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Cassandra Babilya: I mean, I think it. It happens slowly. It happens slowly, and then all at once, right you. We all know that person who comes into the office and is just
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Cassandra Babilya: the Debbie Downer, the one who is just like this sucks. I hate it all. Why are you even doing this? Every email. They oh, throwing things that like, because their body is having a viscerally negative reaction to every single thing that happens in the office. Every single person irks them. Every single assignment is stupid. Every single, you know. Leadership message is just comes from a place of
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Cassandra Babilya: of of malice. So they lack the they've lost the capability to assume positive intent. They've lost the capability to be to have gratitude. Hey, baby.
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Cassandra Babilya: I need you to go to Daddy. Please month go on.
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Danny Gluch: Bye, bud good, seeing you, has he ever been on a podcast before.
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Marion: Probably, yeah.
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Cassandra Babilya: Gabriel.
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Cacha Dora: National superstar right here.
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Cassandra Babilya: International Superstar. Gabriel Carr. Hey, baby, you need to leave, please. Mommy's in a meeting.
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Cassandra Babilya: No, yes, yes, please.
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Cassandra Babilya: I know you don't want to. But I need you to. Okay.
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Cassandra Babilya: can you just come? Pick him up, please.
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Cassandra Babilya: Yeah, thank you.
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Cassandra Babilya: All right. So we were talking about contempt for the tiny human person.
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Cassandra Babilya: The antidote to contempt is, it's a little bit of gratitude.
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Cassandra Babilya: It's it's coaching. It is sitting down and having
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Cassandra Babilya: forward, looking conversations with your team about their goals and their personal and professional desires, and how you can genuinely support them to reach those goals and desires. It's talking to them about.
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Cassandra Babilya: Where do you feel like
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Cassandra Babilya: your work doesn't align with what we, what you thought we hired you to do, or what you think could have more impact on our end customers or on the organization. It's talking to them about what their goals ultimately are. Do they feel like there's a better fit for them somewhere else in the organization. It's taking in a genuine interest
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Cassandra Babilya: at the. It's usually at the manager level
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Cassandra Babilya: and then supporting them with benefits that they have control over. So this is why this is why flexible stipends. Actually, there was just data came out, comped, released their their benefits.
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Cassandra Babilya: Benefits report flexible stipends are the way to go, because employees have that autonomy. They have control over what they spend their money on to make the most sense for them. Their careers, their families, their futures, and so they could put that that money towards professional development that makes sense for them.
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Cassandra Babilya: They could put that money towards coaching or mental health care that makes sense for them.
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Danny Gluch: Man that just
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Danny Gluch: it seems like such a a night and day difference like I I honestly, I don't know how a company goes from
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Danny Gluch: that being that place of contempt to that, like, it seems like so many small steps and and structural things, too. It's not just a training for the managers or a resource. It's hard to go from the organization that's attempting to squeeze everything out of their employees to the one who generally wants their employees to feel that their time is worthwhile here.
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Danny Gluch: and and trusts them to say, Hey, here's this stipend. We trust that you're going to use this in the way that's best for you, which means it's best for us.
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Marion: Bye.
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Danny Gluch: It seems like there's a mentality change that has to go from. Oh, you know, our job is to benefit the the shareholders and the overall organization, and and, you know, make the profits go up as much as possible versus hey? We take care of our people. They'll take care of us like that. That's such a monumental shift.
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Cassandra Babilya: Yeah, but here's the thing I have.
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Cassandra Babilya: I have good news and bad news. I have seen organizations make that mental shift towards trust towards genuine support of their employees, towards enabling managers to, you know, coach their people, coach their teams. Give that flexibility. However, as I told Marion before.
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Cassandra Babilya: leaders will do literally anything to combat burnout
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Cassandra Babilya: other than adjust goals and workloads.
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Danny Gluch: Let's.
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Cassandra Babilya: That is like the one thing that never comes up as a recommendation or an acceptable way to solve the systemic problem. You're seeing within an organization.
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Cassandra Babilya: They just the there is like a mental block on.
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Cassandra Babilya: Oh, we are trying to work our people too hard. We don't have the resources. We don't have the human capital, even though I hate that phrase. We don't have the human capital to achieve these goals, so maybe we should
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Cassandra Babilya: reel them back in a little bit, make them a little more adjustable.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, goal setting is such a problem in organizations. It feels like a letter to Santa. It's just a wish list of like, oh, my goodness, what if we made 10 million dollars this quarter? That would be great. Okay, that's the goal for everyone. It's like, wait a second. That's like the raiders trying to win the super bowl this year, like what? No, those aren't actual goals. Sorry, Marion just totally glazed over with an American football reference. Still, it fits.
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Marion: Lincoln, no.
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Danny Gluch: The goals are so bad, and and it trickles down and creates this burnout like. I honestly think that's a huge part of it.
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Cassandra Babilya: And they're just based on vibes. Honestly. And like we got, we made 1 billion last year. Let's make 2 billion this year, whether or not that that's realistic.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, I think what's also interesting, too, is
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Cacha Dora: knowing that the mindset of an organization through genuine decision making can change into a place where people have trust, because I think I think we talk about trust all the time under the context of psychological safety. But if I were an employee in that organization. I would think that sounded like Utopia and a pipe dream.
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Cacha Dora: Because if you're already feeling that cynicism and that criticality again.
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Cacha Dora: in your own role in your own team, you know, like continuing to kind of like, move the bubble outside from yourself. You don't. You don't have trust in your organization, and that's such a hard thing for a business to gain back.
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Cacha Dora: Interpersonally, a lot easier to do as a business toward an individual. Woof.
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Marion: The the thing I keep thinking about is 2 things, a performance curve in psychological contract.
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Marion: you know and they're interlinked, right, because obviously. Go back to psychological contract. My windshield right? My brand new car. Start my new job. I have my brand new car, my windshield's pristine. It's brand new. It's chip free. And then I'm in my car going to work
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Marion: metaphorically, and I get a ding on the windshield because a little pebble hits it, and it's got the teeny, tiny little crack, because some somewhere I don't know a policy launched that I didn't agree with, or I was made to do something that didn't sit with me.
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Marion: you know. Again it went against my values, whatever right? And then my windshield crack gets a little bit bigger because something else happens, and I get passed over for promotion, or whatever it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And then, before you know it, it's shattered, and that's the past, the point of no return, right like you can't fix that windshield. It's fucked without, you know. Peace out time for a new car right? And
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Marion: the performance curve is completely related to that, because, as my crack gets bigger, my performance curve is like, right, exactly, and that's where the business no longer knows what to do with me. And it's like.
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Marion: Okay, well, she's going on a pip right tool to terminate so it it
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Marion: we see all of this, we clearly we understand them. We're not alone here. There's plenty of people, you know, smarter than us that that really understand this stuff.
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Marion: and yet
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Marion: not fixing it. We're just going round and round and replacing our windshields periodically and buying new cars. And we're actually not solving the problem.
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Marion: And
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Marion: then we all look at each other and go well. Why are we not solving it? Because we've not actually figured it out like, does anyone know how to solve this really, because I think yes, we do an academic level, but actually taking what we know from a theoretical standpoint and making that work in an organization
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Marion: that's just like a that's a big lift.
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Marion: How do you do that when it's so far past the point.
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Cassandra Babilya: Is the problem. Just capitalism.
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Marion: Me too.
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Danny Gluch: Honestly like. That's an honest question. Simon Sinek came out with the infinite game or infinite, whatever mindset book, and that's essentially what it's about.
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Danny Gluch: and it's i i haven't read it for like a year or 2. But like, that's that's what it's about, is there are certain companies that will have this mindset. And, Marion, I actually thought of this when you were talking earlier about the the pre covid. Oh, my goodness, we're hiring all of these people. Oh, my goodness! We over hired
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Danny Gluch: And you know, Simon, I'm pretty sure in this book talks about that where they say, Hey, we see our resources, and instead of saying, Hey, we over hired. Let's like cut these people and get rid of them because we made a mistake. They would say, wow! We hired all these amazing people. Let's figure out what we can do with them.
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Danny Gluch: And and let's see what we can use. Not like, hey, we have to meet this goal, or, you know, balance our books, that sort of stuff, and it's a mindset change. And and again, I think that most organizations just have it wrong. And it's it's creating this
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Danny Gluch: burnout. It's creating the untarped loads that are hitting all of our windshields.
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Cassandra Babilya: I don't know if I have a
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Cassandra Babilya: I don't know if I have a a a solution. I I maybe have insight into
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Cassandra Babilya: the cycle. So in back in my CIA days we had.
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Cassandra Babilya: we had a term called a blighted post.
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Cassandra Babilya: I was. I was posted at a I was posted at one now blighted post is where
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Cassandra Babilya: the toxic culture of an embassy is, is so bad that it burns out its people.
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Cassandra Babilya: which means it ex. It creates a like a negative they in turn create a negative, basically employer brand for that post which in turn makes it hard to get people to sign up for a tour at that post overseas which in turn makes it so that the people who show up there are either
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Cassandra Babilya: desperate or they are. You know, they're taking like a rotation. So that's not really their job.
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Cassandra Babilya: So the output of that assignment is
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Cassandra Babilya: is not as good as it could be like for the sister sister embassies in other places, and the cycle just continues where you have people and families who rotate into rotate into that
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Cassandra Babilya: to that post overseas. And it's just negative. Everyone's morale is down, and that cycle continues for.
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Marion: Years.
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Cassandra Babilya: The post is blighted. They can't hire. They can't hire good people. They can't keep good people keep leaving early. Leaders go insane and start doing wacky things they can't get. They can't get like really great talent to come in there and change it. And the problem with the cycle is that even if you have a 50% turnover in one summer, you still have 50% of the people who have. They've checked out. They have
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Cassandra Babilya: stepped back and disconnected entirely. There is no hope for them to come back.
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Cassandra Babilya: The only way that they are going to solve their burnout is by leaving that post and going somewhere where it's not toxic. And so the 50% of people who just came in and they're happy and positive. And they're hopeful. They just bleach
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Cassandra Babilya: leach the negativity from the people who were there.
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Cassandra Babilya: So I don't have a solution for you. I'm sorry. That was a really negative story.
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Danny Gluch: Is this really.
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Marion: What is this? Where the waterboarding comes in.
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Cacha Dora: All I could hear in my head was the words Danny saying, suboptimal on a loop.
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Danny Gluch: Yes.
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Danny Gluch: it's all suboptimal, but I I think that it brings a little bit of light. What you were talking about earlier when you were talking about, you know, again, this is happens normally on a managerial level. So it's not structural, right? This is like a you know, a happenstance. The manager decides to do this where them actually taking care, and wh when they were, you know, asking about their long term goals and what they see here, and how can I support you to to do your best work here?
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Danny Gluch: Those conversations for me spark, hope.
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Danny Gluch: the the hope that my time here in the future is going to be something that is valuable to the time I'm and energy I'm actually giving, and I feel like when you lose that hope of not just my my current self, but my future self's time and energy is not going to be worth.
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Danny Gluch: you know, spending here. It's it's gone, and and you need to have those conversations to re-spark that hope that your future self is going to have value.
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Danny Gluch: And and I think that's a big part of
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Danny Gluch: what needs to happen. And honestly, those little posts and things. Yeah, I know a little bit of how military things work. There are some where there's just. There's no hope. It is just going to be bad. You're in a you know, Alaska, or you know the Arctic, or some nonsense, and there's just it's going to be bleak hopefully. No actual job is like that. But I don't know. Even I think even there there can be hope and should be hope
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Danny Gluch: for those normal jobs. I remember a history professor telling me that his dad put him in all of his siblings through college by painting the left side of fords
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Danny Gluch: for 20 years.
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Danny Gluch: All he did was paint the left side of fords, and that's that's what he did. He was in the shop in in the, you know, whatever construction.
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Danny Gluch: whatever those things are called.
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Cacha Dora: Factoring line.
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Danny Gluch: Thank you.
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Cacha Dora: You're welcome.
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Danny Gluch: And like the hope was, Hey, if I just keep doing this job, my kids are gonna get to go to college.
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Danny Gluch: I don't have to get promoted. I don't have to be shop steward, or you know, manager, I just keep painting the left side of this board
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Danny Gluch: 20 years from now all my kids will be through college. I don't think we have that hope in most jobs we have this mentality of oh, I need to keep stepping forward, or I'm barely going to be able to sustain my normal lifestyle, because things keep getting more expensive, and Netflix is now $25. For some reason.
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Marion: Yeah, yeah.
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Cacha Dora: It's that forward progression, right? That we're almost like
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Cacha Dora: conditioned into right? We're talking systemicness, but also on a societal level where you have to keep progressing. And then yes, obviously going back to the comment on capitalism. We've got inflation. Everything keeps getting more expensive. I don't want to talk about it, but, like
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Cacha Dora: the fact of the matter is is that there is a need for people to consistently make more to consistently the the concept of more is it more in your job? Is it more in your pay, more in your title? Is that all connected? Are you making a lateral move?
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Cacha Dora: And now you're getting more out of your job, which makes you happier, right? Like the more concept doesn't always equate to an economics thing. But I think that it definitely impacts it. But like
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Cacha Dora: the concept of burnout and just hearing, this conversation is so interesting, because I think
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Cacha Dora: personally, I think I've only really ever thought about burnout on an individualistic level, because I've either been through it. I've observed others going through it. I've had a front row seat
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Cacha Dora: to people I've worked with going through it and trying to help, but knowing that the issue was systemic and I couldn't fix it, I'd love to fix it, but I can't fix it.
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Cacha Dora: and if it's not something that you know like you can't put a button on it and say, I'm fixing you because it takes so many things.
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Cacha Dora: I'm asking myself, now, what kind of support systems can we create to help with that? Not so much can we fix the issue? Because again, systemic means. It's gonna take
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Cacha Dora: multiple years, every department, all, everyone having the same level of buy-in without having the
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Cacha Dora: well. How does this help me? Mentality? Right? Like you have to escape that to a degree. But like, how do we help people in that process?
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Cassandra Babilya: I I think there are some actually think there are some pretty easy systemic things that
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Cassandra Babilya: organizations can can do to counteract and perhaps prevent burnout.
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Cassandra Babilya: One is really simple, and it's creating communication norms
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Cassandra Babilya: that will help their employees set and maintain boundaries. So, for example.
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Cassandra Babilya: document your communication norms, we we don't expect you to respond. Outside of work hours.
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Cassandra Babilya: We will not send communications outside of work hours unless we're a global company, and it's always someone's work hour.
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Cassandra Babilya: We don't expect you to have your email, your work email on your phone. We don't expect you to read or check your work email while you are not working. We don't expect you to read, check, email respond, attend meetings while you're on vacation setting those norms creates psychological safety for employees to set, maintain those boundaries. Leaders can then demonstrate.
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Cassandra Babilya: that those boundaries for themselves. I am taking vacation. I will not be taking any meetings. I will be back, and until I'm back you can contact my my deputy. That's another way that makes it safe for people to
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Cassandra Babilya: to take time creating
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Cassandra Babilya: creating benefits leave benefits where everyone everyone has a break. So organizations that do like we all shut down between Christmas and New Year's. That's great because you're not gonna come back having to an inbox that's got a thousand emails that you have to respond to.
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Cassandra Babilya: but doing that twice a year. Also doing that in the summer. I don't know. Perhaps when school ends, and all of the parents in your organization are scrambling to find childcare.
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Cassandra Babilya: Take a week where everybody shuts down means no one needs to come back to the chaos of a filled inbox. I mean, that's just a simple thing that in organizations can do is to create those communication ones that enable boundaries on an individual level. But it's not the individuals
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Cassandra Babilya: responsibility to do it. Even if
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Cassandra Babilya: even if you do feel like you need to. I mean I do in order to protect your sanity. It's great. If the company does that for you.
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Marion: Yeah, no, that's so important. It's really funny being being a Brit. And you know, being
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Marion: Well, I was European, I suppose I don't consider myself European anymore, but we'll not get. I'll start talking about Brexit, and I'll be salty, but
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Marion: is very much ingrained in us. Right? You know you. You work your 37 and a half hours a week and or 36, if you work for local authority, usually and you have your
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Marion: 28 days. Minimum paid holiday vacation, including public holidays a year. And when you go on leave, you're not checking emails. You're not going to meetings like that's just normal in in, outside of the Us. And other very highly capitalist societies.
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Marion: and when I 1st came to the States.
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Marion: and my 1st job here was like 10 days. Leave a year, and I'm like.
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Cacha Dora: Fuck is this like?
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Cacha Dora: Don't get out the gate. You have to accrue it. You have to work.
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Danny Gluch: Oh! Oh! Absolutely!
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Marion: You have to create. You have to create your 10 days. Yeah. And then, there's that
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Marion: unsaid expectation that you're always on.
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Marion: you know, and that no is a dirty word fuck that absolutely not right, like, you know. I don't. I don't play that game. And so it's very interesting experiencing
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Marion: 2 very different approaches and perspectives. And I really do see how unpsychologically safe
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Marion: predominantly. Most people are. Most of our working society here is because they do not feel they can say no
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Marion: and I mean the the phenomena around
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Marion: unlimited. Pto, I mean, that's just that. Just underpins all of it right? You know all the data tells us that if you have unlimited Pto, you will take less
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Marion: then you would. If you had a a a sustained amount type thing like a set amount. So
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Marion: it's nuts. It really is nuts. And
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Marion: again, I think that it's so deeply ingrained here that
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Marion: this is not something that will come right overnight, even as generational shifts happen. It's so inherent. It's so in with the bricks
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Marion: that I think it's still decades more of change and work and awareness, raising and policy change, and all the other things that will make a significant difference in how work culture is here, and ultimately, you know, positively impact the systemic nature of burnout.
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Marion: God, that's depressing. I'm sorry.
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Danny Gluch: But I don't know. Whenever you bring up the like, the the better work, life balance of European countries. I have the little like
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Danny Gluch: conservative
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Danny Gluch: thing in my shoulder going. But what about their Gdp? It's not, as you know, impressive as the United States, our Gdp per capita is better, and that that just goes right into that that same mentality. And I think it's so built in to the, to the Us. Where you know, the leaders of the organizations are like. But what about our overall growth? And you know the the leaders of the country, and it just like a whole societal mindset of
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Danny Gluch: you know our our stock market, our Gdp, like.
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Cacha Dora: More, more and more.
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Danny Gluch: Dare you think about a 4 week, 4 day work, week.
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Cacha Dora: More, more.
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Marion: Yeah, more, with less, more, with less, more.
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Cassandra Babilya: More with less. That that is the phrase that actually drives me bonkers.
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Cassandra Babilya: Like. If you want to see my my rage come out in a in a meeting is to suggest that teams do more with less.
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Marion: Oh, yeah, me, too.
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Danny Gluch: It's.
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Cacha Dora: It's an inherent disregard of people.
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Danny Gluch: It's interesting because I enjoy sort of like strategy, economic sort of like games where the goal is to try to do like as efficient, and and do as much with as little as possible. And like, that's how you win the game. I'm great at monopoly.
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Danny Gluch: but like that doesn't work, when, like the there's people involved like, it's great when they're little ponds that you move around a board.
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Danny Gluch: but not great. When those people have lives and families and whatnot like they, they would collapse, and all of a sudden wait. I thought I had a you know, a little player at this position, but like Oh, he he evaporated. He left. I guess I didn't.
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Danny Gluch: And I really wish people understood that. That's what happens when they ask, do do more with less. It's not. It's not a good feeling.
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Cassandra Babilya: Yeah, he.
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Danny Gluch: Capacity.
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Cassandra Babilya: It's not. X is not endless. And when they say, do more with less, they're they're and intuiting that
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Cassandra Babilya: necessity drives innovation. However, when they're saying, Do more with less. To the humans.
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Cassandra Babilya: the innovation doesn't already exist. So they're saying, We want you to continue
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Cassandra Babilya: running this rat race over here do all of the things and do more, do more, do more, do more, and also find the time to build some solution that makes all of this less rat racy. There is no time to build the innovation while you are trying to keep the balls up in the air over here.
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Cacha Dora: Because innovation needs an environment to thrive.
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Cassandra Babilya: Yes.
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Danny Gluch: Yep.
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Marion: And they need psychological safety for innovation to take place. We have to be able to fail to be able to fail. We need to feel psychologically safe. We don't feel psychologically safe when people are, you know, beating us with the stick and saying, Do more with less, do more, with less do more, with less.
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Cacha Dora: Or, you know, going back to that. What if I take a risk? And now I'm in the lower 10%.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, absolutely.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cassandra Babilya: Yeah, I my numbers weren't as high because I was trying to build something to help everybody over here.
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Marion: Yeah. And and but we gave you, Jenny I that should make you more productive.
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Cacha Dora: Boy.
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Danny Gluch: Arian, please.
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Cacha Dora: And use the right prompt.
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Marion: I'll give you the new shady toy. Go, go, do more with less.
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Danny Gluch: I think that brings up a good point, though it's so interesting that organizations are willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars on software.
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Danny Gluch: but not on people they're like, Hey, here's a software we're about to spend a ton of money on to increase efficiency. But, like you, you could have just compensated people more or or hired better, more experienced people, and not been this like, Hey, we hired you. But as soon as that happens, we get cut throat in the negotiations, and we need to get you for as cheaply as possible. Like, yeah, what if you just paid me a little bit better. Would that maybe
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Danny Gluch: help me produce more like I I don't know. It's so frustrating.
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Marion: Yeah, nothing like a good old bait and switch.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. So, Cassandra, what is it that
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Danny Gluch: individuals can do? And that leaders can do? Because I feel like there's a big disconnect because people don't have
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Danny Gluch: any authority over the structural decisions of their organization.
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Danny Gluch: Is it?
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Danny Gluch: Yeah? So what is it that individuals can do? What is it that leaders can do
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Danny Gluch: if they're in an organization that is burning people out actively.
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Cassandra Babilya: Well, I'm gonna start with what leaders could do, because.
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Danny Gluch: It's their job. It is 100%.
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Cassandra Babilya: What leaders can do, set realistic goals
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Cassandra Babilya: and evaluate them on a quarterly basis and adjust them as necessary.
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Danny Gluch: Hmm.
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Cassandra Babilya: They can set realistic communication standards and norms for the team, and they can give
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Cassandra Babilya: whole human well-being benefits like relationship, agnostic bereavement leave
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Cassandra Babilya: a minimum amount of Pto, not a maximum
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Cassandra Babilya: career coaching, or a flexible stipend that an employee can use for for anything
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Cassandra Babilya: professional development that meets the needs of not just an employee's current job, but their future career aspirations. Even if it's
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Cassandra Babilya: outside of your organization managing toxic leaders
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Cassandra Babilya: out of the organization, not putting up with the quote unquote, you know, asshole genius.
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Cassandra Babilya: recognizing not just the extraordinary, but also the ordinary
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Cassandra Babilya: hard work that happens every day.
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Cassandra Babilya: Those are the basics of what leaders and organizations should be doing to protect their teams from burnout.
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Cassandra Babilya: If you are an individual going through it.
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Cassandra Babilya: I mean, there's a lot of things that you can do. I think it basically comes down to
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Cassandra Babilya: setting and maintaining boundaries for yourself that protects your time and energy.
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Cassandra Babilya: There's a whole.
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Cassandra Babilya: I wrote I wrote about the the burnout off ramp
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Cassandra Babilya: on makework suck less my newsletter
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Cassandra Babilya: kind of breaks it down. What you can do
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Cassandra Babilya: if you're feeling more of the exhaustion or the cynicism or the self-confidence loss.
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Cassandra Babilya: There's just little things you can do. But ultimately, if you are burned out. If you have reached the point of no return. What may solve it for you is a job change.
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Cassandra Babilya: That is the most likely thing that you can do to support your mental health and well-being if you can't leave now, because again your job is tied to your healthcare, your ability to put a roof in food
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Cassandra Babilya: for your family. If it's tied to leave, you need to have a baby.
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Cassandra Babilya: then the boundary setting is the thing that will help you until you can leave.
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Danny Gluch: Wow!
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Danny Gluch: Hopefully, someone wrote that down.
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Danny Gluch: That was fantastic.
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Cacha Dora: I was on, repeat.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cassandra Babilya: Wait. We have our AI note note taker.
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Cassandra Babilya: I know takers for the win.
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Danny Gluch: Oh.
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Danny Gluch: oh, man, that's that's all. So great and honestly, I think, it starts exactly where you started where think about the goals, you're setting for your organization.
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Danny Gluch: Leaders need to be judged.
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Danny Gluch: and they need to reflect constantly about the quality of the goals they're setting? Was it realistic? Was it achievable all of that?
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Danny Gluch: Or or is it destroying the people that they're trusting to create the actual profit for their company? And I think most of the time they're destroying people, and
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Danny Gluch: like. What a great exercise to Quarterly review that. And hey, am I doing a good job setting goals for our company?
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: I think the other thing, too, in
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Cacha Dora: from the individual experiencing it. Perspective.
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Cacha Dora: We all, I think the thing that we always talk about with burnout is the fatigue.
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Cacha Dora: the exhaustion. I think the thing that doesn't get talked about enough is what you were talking about was that the the destruction of someone's self-confidence.
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Cacha Dora: Cause. I think that's the thing that you don't register when it's happening.
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Cacha Dora: You don't. It's like something that you might even notice like in your next job. Once you leave that job
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Cacha Dora: and you don't register how your confidence was actually really kind of torn down, or you started to doubt yourself or question it.
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Cacha Dora: and it might show up in the job. Hunt for someone. It might show up when they get to a job and be like, oh, wow! People actually see my value here
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Cacha Dora: like, I kind of forgot I had that.
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Cacha Dora: And.
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Marion: It's trauma.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah. And I think it's such an important call out, because I think that people don't. That's not an easy thing to see. You can see when you're exhausted and tired and burnt, and like that burnt out right because it's almost like a
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Cacha Dora: a descriptor word that people use.
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Cacha Dora: But it doesn't actually like you said earlier encapsulate everything.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. Do you ladies think that when you're experiencing that lack of confidence that it makes it harder to feel that you're worthy to apply for and go through that process to look for a job.
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Cassandra Babilya: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, honestly.
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Marion: Especially for women, especially for women.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: As you know, we're already on a back foot. We're already less likely to negotiate in the same way that our male counterparts would. We're already less likely to ask for more money the way that our male counterparts would. So you put this on top of that. It's no wonder the pay gap is a real thing, right? It's not a surprise. So yeah, we're already limited.
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Cassandra Babilya: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: I don't. And the stat of people who they say that like women, will. Only women will typically apply for jobs that they fully meet the requirements for versus their male counterparts, who will meet like 50 to or less percent. And they'll apply anyway. And so it's the putting Danny going back to that, putting yourself out there.
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Cacha Dora: The the letter of the law sometimes gets held too high.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cassandra Babilya: It's not, it's it is the the imposter syndrome, Marian, and and the the feeling like
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Cassandra Babilya: I'm not. I'm not meeting all of those standards. Therefore I will not apply. But burnout actually impacts brain function too. It like literally makes us dumber when you're burnt out, and so that your productivity goes down and imagine showing up to an interview with extreme burnout. And your brain is just not
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Cassandra Babilya: functioning. It's not recalling information. It's not responding eloquently to questions.
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Cassandra Babilya: It also impacts career progression. In that you're not spending the time and building the relationships at work with sponsors and advocates. Who can
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Cassandra Babilya: help you find new roles. Who can help you network because you're not. You're not you. You're not your best self.
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Cassandra Babilya: So it definitely impacts. It definitely impacts your ability to find that new role. That's why I like.
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Cassandra Babilya: I say, you know, you can't spa day your way out of burnout, but taking a break, a significant break where you can like, reset and recharge, maybe do something that inspires you for me that's jumping off of cliffs like, go and do that before you try
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Cassandra Babilya: interviewing someplace because you're not going to. You're not gonna have the same impact. If you show up and you're like
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Cassandra Babilya: half a brain working. And you're you're so tired you can't keep your eyes open.
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Marion: Yeah. And I think, laid on to that. You know, you're you're a parent of young kids, right? So that that brings a different lead of tiredness and dealing with, you know, young children's needs. Similarly, I'm reaching a point of my
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Marion: experiences of a woman where I'm perimenopausal right? So that brings brain fog, and that brings a lot of other shit that comes with it. So you layer that in on top of
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Marion: burnout, as we've described it again. As a woman we're we're we're doubly cursed in that sense.
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Marion: So yeah, it's definitely there is a gender imbalance here, for sure.
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Danny Gluch: Boy that's bleak.
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Marion: Sorry, Danny, now is your job to make it cheerful and and wrap us up.
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Danny Gluch: Oh, man! On that note! Hold on! Did you say you jump off cliffs for fun?
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Cassandra Babilya: I do! I love it.
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Danny Gluch: Like like base jumping like what? What is Bungee like? Little cliffs into oceans?
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Danny Gluch: Oh.
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Marion: Oh, okay. Good.
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Cacha Dora: Little little caveat, little cliffs.
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Cassandra Babilya: Yeah, like.
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Danny Gluch: Clips must be different than the ones I have in my mind.
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Cassandra Babilya: Yeah. No like you know, 30, 40, 50 feet.
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Danny Gluch: Nope, that's about what? Ahead of my mind.
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Marion: Okay.
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Cacha Dora: Applaud you. I will take photos from the top.
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Marion: I will meet you at the bottom with my flotate flotation device.
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Cassandra Babilya: Meet me at the bottom with a caipirinha and a floaty love. It.
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Marion: Yeah, that's that sounds like my kind of day at the beach. Thanks.
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Danny Gluch: Thank you so much for coming on and shedding so much light and practical advice for both individuals, but especially for those leaders, to help really start to make progress counteracting this
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Danny Gluch: burnout epidemic. It really is. It's it's widespread. And it's really really bad. And it's not talked about enough. So thank you so much for coming on.
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Cassandra Babilya: I appreciate shout for inviting me.
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Danny Gluch: Oh, absolutely! Thank you all for listening. You can reach us at elephant@thefearlesspx.com. Please leave a 5 star review. If you're not subscribed. Please subscribe on whatever platform you listen to. You can find us all on Linkedin. Be sure to look for Cassandra's information and links in the show notes connect with her. She is amazing, as she just proved. Thank you all so much. We'll see you next time.
