The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
Your CEO Might Be a Narcissist… But Don’t Panic (Yet!) with Danny Wareham
We’re going dark… but in a totally self-aware, psychologically fascinating kind of way.
This week on The Elephant in the Org, we’re diving into the Dark Triad — narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism — and how these personality traits show up in leadership. Our guest, the brilliant Danny Wareham (organisational psychologist, coach, and self-proclaimed bee-lover), joins us to unpack why some of these traits might actually be… useful? In the right context, of course.
We ask the real questions:
- Is your CEO just confident… or kinda terrifying?
- Are we accidentally rewarding toxic leadership?
- Can a bit of narcissism actually drive performance?
- What does culture have to do with personality?
- And why does it always come back to self-awareness?
Expect a little sass, a lot of insight, and the usual banter from your favourite trio. Because sometimes, the elephant in the org is charming, powerful… and just a touch self-obsessed.
And if you’re a middle manager trying to survive all of this? This one’s definitely for you.
You can contact Danny:
🔗 dannywareham.co.uk
🔗 firgun.co.uk
🔗 Danny on LinkedIn
🐘 Connect with Us:
🚀 Follow The Fearless PX on LinkedIn: The Fearless PX
📩 Got a hot take or a workplace horror story? Email Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlesspx.com
🎧 Catch every episode of The Elephant in the Org: All Episodes Here
🚀Your Hosts on Linkedin:
💬 Like what you hear?
Subscribe, leave a ★★★★★ review, and help us bring more elephants into the light.
🎙️ About the Show
The Elephant in the Org drops new episodes every two weeks starting April 2024.
Get ready for even more fearless conversations about leadership, psychological safety, and the future of work.
🎵 Music & Production Credits
🎶 Opening and closing theme music by The Toros
🎙️ Produced by The Fearless PX
✂️ Edited by Marion Anderson
⚠️ Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests, and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations' official policy or position.
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Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the elephant in the org, everyone. I'm Danny Glutch, and I'm joined by my co-host Kashidora
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Cacha Dora: Hello!
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Danny Gluch: And Marin Anderson
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Marion: Hello! I love that. Kasha always sings her. Hello! Is I have to get
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Cacha Dora: I can't help it. It just happens I started it, and I can't stop it. It's like the pringles of sound effects
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Danny Gluch: Now it's a bit. It's fine.
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Danny Gluch: Today we have such a great elephant in the org. We're going to look at the dark side of leadership, narcissism, power, the dark triad which has got to be one of the coolest catchphrases I've ever heard.
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Danny Gluch: And to talk about that we have Danny Wareham.
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Danny Gluch: Did I say that right
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Danny Wareham: That's spot on, although I feel like I should be singing the answer now
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Marion: Good.
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Danny Wareham: Try.
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Cacha Dora: We're a safe place. We're
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Danny Wareham: Anybody needs to hear that
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Danny Gluch: Amy, introduce yourself
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Danny Wareham: So. Hi, everybody! My name is Danny Wareham. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I love learning about what makes you you? What's those individual differences. And how do you
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Danny Wareham: create opportunities and create environments and create cultures where you can be more, you
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Danny Gluch: That is, I think, a big overlap with with what we're interested in, what we talk about a lot. So, and I know our listeners are, too.
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Danny Gluch: boy, I'm excited for this.
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Danny Gluch: So, Danny.
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Danny Gluch: how did you get into this this sort of dark triad? 1st off? What is the dark triad? And how did you get interested in researching it? Sort of academically
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Danny Wareham: When we look at what makes you you. Personality is a big part of that. It describes the kind of individual differences between individual members of a species, so we can measure it in animals, in insects, and obviously in people
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Danny Wareham: and in the corporate world where I've spent most of my life. We kind of simplify it a bit rather than looking at people individually. You like to group people together. So you have lots of sort of assessments like Disk and Myers-briggs and discovery insights, and so on. That kind of say, you're this type of person.
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Danny Wareham: and there's a whole argument academically around. How accurate those are, and do they really measure what they say? They measure, etc. But the fact is, they're very popular because people are intrigued about each other, and how they relate to each other.
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Danny Wareham: Now, personality has a genetic component part of it is passed on through your through your DNA. So
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Danny Wareham: if there were
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Danny Wareham: parts of your personality, or parts of personality within a population that are advantageous, then you would expect those people in that society to find mates easier, will pass on their genes, etc. So it intrigued me that you can have all of these different kind of
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Danny Wareham: types of personality traits such as those in the dark triad. Why would they continue? Why wouldn't they have been sort of bred out of the population, and that really intrigued me? Are there benefits to? There? Are there evolutionary benefits to having these sorts of traits in some situations, the same as there are benefits to being particularly worrisome and nervous, and having high neuroticism and being very low, neuroticism being more stoic and dependable and
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Danny Wareham: less reactive to stresses in the environment, there must be a reason that they've
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Danny Wareham: continued through our lineage, and that fascinates me
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Marion: Hmm.
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Cacha Dora: Wow! And what are the the 3 personality traits of the dark triad
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Danny Wareham: I probably should have led with that. So the 3. They are made of a collection of smaller what we call facets, but the 3 kind of top levels you would call narcissism psychopathy, or being a psychopath and Machiavelliism. So narcissism, they're broad descriptions. Narcissism is about being special and the rules not applying to you. Psychopathy is your kind of your Ted Bundy, and lots of Netflix specials on that sort of stuff. And Machiavelliism is about strategic manipulation of others.
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Danny Wareham: But as with any personality trait, there are a whole spectrum, a whole dimension of low to high, and it's only at the extremes that you get a Netflix special about you. There's actually
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Danny Wareham: there's lots of nuance between that we don't often talk about. When we talk about narcissists. It tends to be only in the pejorative.
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Danny Wareham: It's somebody that's a they're a horrible boss, or they're self-obsessed, or they're entitled, or they might be a president. Those kind of things
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Danny Wareham: rather than are. There benefits
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Marion: Hmm.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, yeah.
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Marion: When we 1st spoke, and we had that conversation like it really switched a light on. Because I think it's 1 of those things that makes absolute sense when we talk about it. It's a spectrum, right? It's not, you know. One size fits all. But I don't think we often think about it in that level of depth, especially when.
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Marion: as society as humans, we're very good at making kind of throwaway comments. Oh, he's a narcissist, or she's crazy or or whatever. And you know we do it. And it's that's just
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Marion: society. But it's not until you really stop and think about it. You think, actually.
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Marion: yeah, I I should be very careful with my language, because these are not things, terms that we should just throw about like toxic, you know. So
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: A really interesting point.
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Cacha Dora: Especially cause. I think that all 3 of those labels
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Cacha Dora: Aren't only really spoken about in the the villainy of them, right? Only in one very extreme
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Cacha Dora: to the point where I think that's where people's awareness is. Honestly, I don't think that they realize heavily that there could be any other facet to it. So this is, I think, I hope this opens up a lot of people's perceptions
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. Yeah. And I kind of wanted to start there. Because the 1st philosophy book I ever read in high school. Thanks. Robert Gonzalez, was Machiavelli, and
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Danny Wareham: Snake.
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Danny Gluch: I. It was way over my head at the point, but it was like it was fascinating, because it's clearly evil and awful.
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Danny Gluch: But like.
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Danny Gluch: what are those good sides? What is it that made it where it persisted and was passed down? Because there are benefits? What, what are the benefits, individually, communally and organizationally, to Machiavelliism, narcissism, and
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Danny Gluch: psych psychopathy. I said that right
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Danny Wareham: Yeah, psychopathy. Well, let's do a little assessment, shall we? So we can have a verbal nod or a show of hands. If any of these traits and behaviours sound familiar or sound like they might be beneficial.
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Danny Wareham: So are you. A glass half full, optimistic kind of person.
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Danny Gluch: Oh, yeah.
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Danny Wareham: When things go wrong you're able to bounce back, and you've got sort of grit and mental resilience
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Danny Gluch: Definitely
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Danny Wareham: Yeah, okay?
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Danny Wareham: And if things go wrong, if you're a business owner, for example, and the market changes, are you able to quickly make decisions and pivot and change directions
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Danny Wareham: quickly.
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Danny Wareham: Yeah, well, all of those are narcissistic traits. They're benefits of narcissism.
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Danny Wareham: Yeah? So
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Cacha Dora: Narcissism is the benefit of narcissism. I just wanna
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Danny Wareham: Those come with narcissism. The part of it is driven by the
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Danny Wareham: the belief or the view, that I'm kind of special. So the rules don't apply to me. So actually, that entrepreneurial spirit of being able to pivot very quickly and change directions or see opportunities mean that they tend to be more optimistic and more mentally tough
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Danny Wareham: with psychopathy. If you're able to separate tough decisions from the emotion and just see the rational
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Danny Wareham: That's a psychopathic trait. So if I have an accident and require surgery, I hope my surgeon is a psychopath.
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Danny Wareham: because the ability to not see me as a person, and not think about me, or worry about hurting me, but do their job to the best of their ability.
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Danny Wareham: and in leadership we actively recruit for those things we want people that are mentally tough, that can also make the tough decisions and Machiavelliism.
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Danny Wareham: the behaviours that sit behind that. Are you inspirational? Are you charismatic? You're able to form coalitions and alliances. Now, the level of Machiavelliism determines what the real motive behind that is
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Danny Gluch: Oh, yeah.
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Danny Wareham: But ultimately being able to inspire other people towards goals is pretty much the purpose of leadership. So we actively recruit for individuals that have dark triad behaviors, if not also dark triad behavioral traits or personal
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Danny Wareham: troupe
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Marion: So I have a question. So if because I think
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Marion: I'm speaking for my 2 colleagues here, but I think we're aligned with the the school of thought that you know Myers-breggs and desk, and all of that.
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Marion: We're not massive fans. We we kind of see the purpose, and it's like back in the day when I used to do you know the the the cosmo quiz, and then find out what hairstyle I should be like? I kind of park it in that place. It has a place, but it shouldn't be the be all, and end all.
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Marion: But what would then be
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Marion: tools or ways or methodologies that would support an organization to know whether, if you're hiring someone for psychopathy, for example.
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Marion: that
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Marion: too much is too much. Do you know what I mean if we're talking about it in a spectrum. And we're saying that
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Marion: tho those tendencies, those behaviors, those those preferences are important. But there comes a tipping point right
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Marion: How do you.
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Marion: as accurately as you can identify that as you're going through a hiring process because we've all been in situations I know I have where someone can be great going through an interview process. And as soon as the their sits in that chair you're like, what the hell have I done so? Yeah, I'd love to understand more about that.
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Danny Wareham: So I'm going to sidestep the question temporarily.
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Danny Wareham: just to look at a less controversial personality, Dimension, and see if your if your question still holds up. So if we think of something like agreeableness.
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Danny Wareham: so agreeableness is, how important are the in-group and the out group. So people that are high, agreeable, tend to be more collaborative, friendly, warm, empathetic, but they can become people pleasers, and they can take on too much. And then they argue with themselves in the shower that they shouldn't have done. XY. And Z.
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Danny Wareham: Their kind of Achilles heel is, it takes more cognitive efforts for them to hold people to account to have tough conversations, to tell the waiter that the food was actually horrible. It was all fantastic. It's lovely. We're having a lovely time
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Danny Wareham: because they're more about keeping the peace in the tribe.
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Danny Wareham: People that are low, agreeable tend to be more kind of outcome, focused, more comfortable with conflict, more comfortable with tough conversations, and it's not that they don't care. They care intensely, but only about the people that are in their tribe that are in their clique. So if you're in my team I'll die for you. But if you're my neighbor 3 doors down, I don't even know your name and small talk with you. Exhaust me
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Danny Wareham: Which of those types, because they are types in the way I've described it is best placed to be in your business.
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Danny Wareham: Is it the person that's warm and friendly and consensus building, and doesn't necessarily get things done or hold others to account?
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Danny Wareham: Or is it the person that can be perceived as being brusque and blunt. And you know, when you finish crying, we've still got a problem to solve
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Danny Wareham: takes more effort for them to show empathy, and the answer is.
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Danny Wareham: what what are you trying to achieve at a particular time in a particular context, in a particular organization?
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Marion: Okay.
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Danny Wareham: Dark triad traits exactly the same.
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Danny Wareham: There are, if you are actively recruiting for somebody that is agreeable, or narcissistic, or hostile or extroverted, or whatever the dimension is, then we're probably missing a huge piece of the puzzle that one of the things that informs our behavior is the environment that we're in the people around. What behaviors are tolerated the conversations
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Danny Wareham: It's not the score, it's not the the label that's important. It's the
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Danny Wareham: can you be you? Because people that are not narcissistic can still show self entitled Behaviors
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Danny Wareham: at the end of the day. It's the behavior that we're demonstrating. That's important for narcissists that just becomes more natural. It takes them less cognitive effort to do that
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Wareham: Do you want to hire? For how easy it is for somebody to be agreeable, or extroverted, or narcissistic, or any other trait? Or do you want to create the environment where people can bring all of the tools from their van, be who they can, at the times when it adds value, and know when to rein it in by having the self awareness when it's
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Marion: Hmm, okay.
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Danny Wareham: For me. That's the importance of culture. That's the importance of inclusion.
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Marion: Well, that's where I was going with that. Because when you were talking about, you know agreeable versus hostile Type Thing, and the example that you used of. The waiter coming to the table when you've you didn't like it. But you just said you did.
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Marion: If you think about dimensions of culture, Hofstead or Globe, or however you, whichever school of thought you buy into
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Marion: those cultural, as in geographical, cultural layers, will then inform that right, because the Brits are notorious for going. Yes, yes, everything's fine when you're like that's taste like shit right
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Danny Wareham: Oh!
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Marion: Because our culture is very much, maybe less so. The Scots. We're a bit more
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Danny Wareham: Not going to argue with you, but I'll write a bad tripadvisor Review. Yeah.
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Marion: Exactly. I'm going to be passive, aggressive. Yeah. So like, how then? I guess I'm fascinated about that, because you've got so many different layers
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Marion: that then will impact that depending of what you just described. Like, I realize, I just asked a thesis type question and not everyone. That's easy. For 2 seconds.
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Marion: We're here for it. We expect a 40 page
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Danny Gluch: Paper by this afternoon, Dave
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Cacha Dora: If there's no dissertation, we don't want it
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Marion: Reason why I'm so fascinated in that is one because I live in the Us. Right and I and
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Marion: the Uk has become massively multicultural. But I grew up in the west of Scotland, where Glasgow was very Scottish, very white. And now it's very different. Lived in London for a while. That really changed my perspective about culture, or opened my my exposure to different cultures. And now, living in the Us. We're randomly living in Northwest Arkansas, you would think it would be very
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Marion: singular type cultures. But it's not because of the massive tech
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Marion: influence here. So we've got people from all over the world, you know, Southeast Asia and and China, and all sorts. So I suppose that's why I'm fascinated by what you just described. Because you have these bubbles where you have so many different cultures in one space, and then those kind of triad traits sort of like layered in there as well. That's just fascinating to me when you look at it through that lens
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Danny Wareham: I.
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Danny Wareham: I'm a psychologist. So your thesis is going to be 2 words. It depends.
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Danny Wareham: That's kind of the to every question you ask a psychologist. But
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Marion: It's true.
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Danny Wareham: Culture as a social phenomenon. It's really fascinating because
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Danny Wareham: you you are. You all the time
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Wareham: But the culture that you have between the 3 of you. So how you behave, Marion, in this environment will be very different to how you behave with your family after this interview, be very different to how you behave with a client on Monday, even though you're being you
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Marion: Oof.
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Danny Wareham: The the sort of social norms of the group that you're in mold and change and
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Danny Wareham: affect. How you behave.
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Danny Wareham: Personality is. It's kind of like your default operating system. It's the way you're wired to be energy efficient. It doesn't mean you can't behave out of character if you're more measured and observant, and a bit of a wallflower. Naturally, that doesn't mean you can't be a keynote speaker or a stand-up comedian. Be the center of attention. You just have to choose
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Danny Wareham: that it's the right thing to do, and it's worth the energy. And can I drive home with the radio off because I'm a bit exhausted, having spent that extra energy. So how many of your environments encourage people to act out of character? Because that's how we get things done around here?
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Danny Wareham: That's the question. That's why culture is important when it comes to people's personalities, because there are people that will be working in the if we take the Us. The Us. Is very much kind of rugged individualism. Everybody pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and very outcome focused low, agreeable
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Danny Wareham: conversations. You know I'm not here to make friends. I'm here to make business.
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Danny Wareham: You will have people that are very high, agreeable, that will have to behave like that in order to survive, and they can do that. They just go home exhausted.
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Danny Wareham: And you see this in Hr. Teams that really care about people and care about the tribe who have to behave in ways that are about risk management and processes and very outcome focused. And as a result, you see, lots of and lots of burnout and stress, and so on in Hr communities and Hr. Teams move from company to company because there's safety in numbers as a team is like a shared trauma that they have, because the culture encourages them to behave out of character.
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Danny Gluch: Wow!
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Danny Wareham: And that that's why inclusion is important. I'll keep saying. That's why inclusion is important. When can you be? You
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Marion: You just described our relationship. Me, Danny and Kasha we have. We're trauma bonded
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, definitely. But I think the the thing that I, my, i.
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Cacha Dora: E. Everything you're saying I just keep kind of coming back to the same kind of thought which is
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Cacha Dora: the layering of things in that, you know, you can kind of pull a trait that might be like very deep.
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Cacha Dora: deep buried. And you might be that people pleaser, and you might be that person who's very affable, who's very
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Cacha Dora: more centered around creating bonds with others than maybe being outcome focused. But yet they might need to pull something out of a deep well, even though that's not their default mechanism.
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Cacha Dora: And I think that that's
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Cacha Dora: a very unique thought process. Because I think for a lot of people when they hear any of these phrases that they're going to instinctively, viscerally go. That's not me that could never be me.
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Cacha Dora: And so I think that that thread is.
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Cacha Dora: It's very fascinating
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Danny Wareham: My partner is high, agreeable.
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Danny Wareham: high, agreeable, high conscientiousness. So she likes to get things done and structured and organized. Also high neuroticism. She worries, and she frets and overthinks and catastrophes, and those are real strengths to have sometimes. Now, if I make dinner, I do most of the cooking in our house. There are times when I've stirred a pot, put the spoon down, looked away, gone back to my spoon, and it's already been washed up
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Danny Wareham: because she wants it done.
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Danny Wareham: That's the conscientiousness. Because if somebody knocks on our door, I don't want people judging me that I live in a dirty house with washing lying around. So the worrisome means that she's always looking for something to fix, and the high agreeable is, I'll do it because it's best for the family, but there could come a point where
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Danny Wareham: it's enough's enough, and randomly. On a Wednesday afternoon she'll blow up and do the whole. You treat this house like a hotel. Routine and high, agreeable agreeableness is where aggression sits. People that are low, agreeable, tend to be directly aggressive. People that are high, agreeable, tend to be passive, aggressive. I'll hold the door. You didn't say thank you. You're welcome
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Danny Wareham: that that kind of conversation. I see a few smiling faces.
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Danny Wareham: but it's very easy to see when somebody is high, agreeable, when they're
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Danny Wareham: when they're pushed and under pressure and under stress. At some point it's very easy to completely flip
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Danny Wareham: and just go. Enough's enough. I've had enough. I'm saying something. I'm gonna have a word. And in hr, we see this where people have taken on too much work because they thought that it needed doing. It's a team project. But other people on the team might be lower conscientious. So they do things at the 11th hour. But I'm worried because it reflects on me. If it's not done so, I'll end up doing all the work. And now I'm being taken for granted, and eventually it
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Danny Wareham: be a snap, and they'll shout at somebody, and they'll go. That that's not Danny. That's not what he's normally like. Something must be bad. We need to go and have a disciplinary hearing.
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Marion: It's really.
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Danny Wareham: That they're out of
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Danny Gluch: Sounds, like
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Danny Wareham: Rounds of Character
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Danny Gluch: It sounds like resentment might live in conscientiousness a little bit that
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Danny Wareham: I'm not sure the conscientiousness is more about. How do you structure? How do you structure things so low, conscientious people?
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Danny Wareham: There's a fantastic study in the Uk. Of Gcse. Students who were forced to revise for their exams ahead of time rather than waiting till the night before, or even walking into the exam hall, still reading their notes, and they found there was a 30 percentage difference lower performance when they weren't permitted to cram at the end, because people that are high conscientiousness, like the psychological safety, that having structure, that reading the recipe or reading the instructions or planning brings.
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Danny Wareham: although conscientious people need the deadline in order to kind of catalyze their thoughts and put them at their best.
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Danny Wareham: Trade off is, if you have those 2 types of people working on a project, and that's before you bring in all the other nuance and the politics of organizations, and so on. Then you end up with the high, conscientious people doing all the work upfront, because that's when they're at their best, and
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Wareham: Presenting the
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Danny Wareham: the low, conscientious people. But the low, conscientious people didn't know there was a problem, because it's not due till next week. I was going to start it.
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Danny Wareham: that before now.
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Danny Wareham: having the culture where you can recognize the benefits of people that are structured and organized, or narcissistic or psychopathic or whatever it might be, and recognize the people that maybe have different viewpoints and different approaches. Maybe wired slightly different to you. That's why culture is important because we don't exist in a vacuum
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Danny Gluch: I definitely, I definitely want to turn this towards leadership.
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Danny Wareham: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: But how? How much should hiring teams? And you know recruiting strategies
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Danny Gluch: take into account personality when they're looking to fill roles.
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Danny Gluch: Is is that something that you can do legally and show your work that, like
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Danny Wareham: Think.
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Danny Gluch: Person's a narcissist, complimentary
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Danny Wareham: And
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Danny Gluch: I'm on the team
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Danny Wareham: What a fabulous question! I think, in the Uk. Certainly, currently, there's no law that says that you can't discriminate, based on personality traits. It's not one of the protected characteristics in the Equalities act
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Danny Wareham: for me personally. It feels icky.
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Danny Wareham: you know, if you if you're not creating environments of inclusion, then you're unintentionally create environments of exclusion. So if you're saying only this type of person is welcome here, then
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Danny Wareham: you're you're you're putting barriers to joining organizations, and it just feels discriminatory and icky to me
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Wareham: However, if you're using psychometrics, whether it's for cognitive reasoning or intelligence or personality traits.
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Danny Wareham: there's a couple of steps that I'd like to see in an ideal world. The 1st is, you know, what you're looking for. In the 1st place.
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Danny Wareham: there are so many organizations. Don't know that
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Danny Wareham: Dave's left. Go and get me Dave's job description and find somebody that fills a Dave shaped hole
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, they wanted Dave, number 2,
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Danny Wareham: Yes, but no one's even looked to see if that job spec is actually what Dave did, or if it even applies to what we need as an organization. So we need talent. But what do you need talent to do? And it sounds like such a kind of rudimental and fundamental step. I'm amazed how many organizations don't give it the credence that it really deserves.
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Danny Wareham: The second is, then how do you find people that have the potential to do
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Danny Wareham: half to 70% of the things that this Dave shake toll left. And I say that because the measure of success for hiring managers is, here's 10 things on the job. Spec. My measure of success is who fills those 10 the best.
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Danny Wareham: But the irony is that employee, loyalty and employee
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Danny Wareham: engagement, a large portion of that is being able to grow enroll. So actually by hiring someone that fits Dave's shape, you're unintentionally creating a flight risk because that person's not going to develop enroll. So how do you have?
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Danny Wareham: How do you have the ability to spot the potential in people that can flourish and grow into a role or even job craft that role and change it and evolve it as they go on
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Danny Gluch: Wow!
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Danny Wareham: The 3rd step is, then what tools do we use to assess that? And that might be retraining your hiring managers? There's less bias in the process. In the 1st place or consideration of the bias in the process, it might be using tools like ravens. And you know.
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Danny Wareham: 5 factor models and all that Opq. And assessments as well. But there's steps, I know this is a long answer, but you expect nothing less than maybe
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Danny Gluch: No, no, this is exactly
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Danny Wareham: What are you trying to achieve? And then what's the right tool for it? Because if you think
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Danny Wareham: you know, people still use Myers-briggs for hiring, and
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Danny Wareham: it was designed because a mother-in-law didn't like the son-in-law, and wanted to understand why. Now that feels like a ridiculous tool to use to determine whether you should take this Bdm on or this Bdm on.
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Danny Wareham: And all of these tools have Achilles heels. So unless you know what you want to achieve. You can't choose the tool that will actually help you get there
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Danny Gluch: Hmm!
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Danny Gluch: Wow!
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Danny Wareham: And there are tools specifically for things like narcissism. So if you specifically want people that are driven and optimistic to a point, then you can use things like the Mpi. 40 assessment. There are tools out there.
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Danny Wareham: But do you want a narcissist? Or do you want narcissistic behaviours? Because people that are completely altruistic can also have self-entitled behaviours. It just takes them more effort to do it
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Marion: it's kind of like the introvert extrovert introverted extrovert, like all of that stuff where
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Marion: you're introverted, you can be an extrovert. But then, you know, you just
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Cacha Dora: You're in the cup when
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Danny Wareham: Yeah.
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Marion: Yeah, wind up my cord like the vacuum, and put me back in the closet, and believe me, overnight, so I can. You know
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Danny Wareham: There is nothing. There is nothing more annoying than a comfortable introvert
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Danny Wareham: introverts or extroverts with good taste. They do everything extroverts do. They're just more selective. But if you get an introvert, who's passionate about what they're talking about, and in a company that they or a group of people that they really enjoy. You cannot shut them up. They just go on and on and on, and that's fabulous
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Danny Wareham: on the Flip side, finding extroverted people, people that are more extroverted, it takes them more effort to shut up and listen like properly, actively. Listen not daydream off in their head and just be quiet.
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Danny Wareham: So how do you create the environment where that's okay? So as a coach as an extroverted coach, I won't do more than 2 coaching sessions in a day, because I can't commit the mental bandwidth or cognitive load to actively listen and do the service to my clients.
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Danny Wareham: so I don't book in back to back to back coaching, because that would exhaust me. And if you're an introvert who has to go and give speeches and do the social stuff like we all have to do sometimes. That's fabulous. But how do you have processes that give you the energy to do that? Do you go for a walk before? Do you
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Danny Wareham: find a quiet place after what? What is it that kind of gives you that energy? And a lot of people don't don't do that. They don't. If they're high, agreeable, and they know they've got to have a tough conversation, they'd rather procrastinate and put it off than actually, this is what I'm going to do, and I'm going to have time afterwards, so I can just get back to neutral and get my energy back
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Marion: That's definitely me.
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Danny Wareham: How can you be? You
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Marion: Yeah. And I think that's something that comes over time as well of that transition from being earlier on in your leadership career. If you, because you just described me to a T, where I would procrastinate, and I would put it off. But now, because I'm at a place where I have more confidence in my own competence, and I also understand the rhythm of how I function.
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Marion: I can now do that in a much more beneficial way. And
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Marion: we don't spend enough time talking about this stuff in organizations. We really don't. And
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Marion: we talk a lot about
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Marion: the plight of the middle manager. It's something that collectively, we're very passionate about, because we see
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Marion: that they are the underserved, undersupported, underrepresented. And if we were actually having conversations like this much earlier in leadership careers as opposed to when you get to being at the C-suite, and you're there for deemed as worthy of having an executive coach. Then how much
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Marion: stress and anxiety one could we have removed earlier in the journey? But 2 significantly benefited the wider array of employees around that person as they go through that leadership journey, because if we could actually get this right a little bit sooner, work would suck less
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Danny Wareham: Oh, man! Oh, man!
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Danny Gluch: And I think part of it is is just the
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Danny Gluch: you know what Marion was talking about, the maturity of really understanding who you are the confidence of knowing that that works, and I think so often middle managers, you know, and I am super guilty of this of designing programs and leading trainings, and these middle managers are like, wow! This is incredible. Let me try to fit this mold.
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Danny Gluch: And in trying to fit that mold they're losing a bit of that self confidence and assuredness, and that maturity that comes with no, this is fine. I've done this before, and it's it's a real disservice. Sorry anyone who's taken my trainings
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Danny Wareham: So self-awareness is, it really is the key. We talk about these cliches of secret sources to success, and so on. But for me there's no bigger one than self-awareness, and
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Danny Wareham: with age and maturity you get to know a little bit more about when you're at your best, even if you don't fully understand it. And for me there's a reason. Self-awareness is a chapter in every leadership book ever published, but you can read as many books as you want until you can read yourself. You miss out on all the good stuff you miss out on how it's going to apply to you, and when you can be at your best, and when you derail.
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Danny Wareham: because you don't realize one of my Derailles is when I'm under stress, I become a bit of a fantasist. I have unrealistic goals, and so on. So, for example, the engine light came on in my car recently, and the very 1st thought that went through my head was, let's get a new car.
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Danny Wareham: and I can rationalize it away because I've had the car 4 years, and I could probably put one on the business, and I might be able to get an electric vehicle which is tax exempt. And so to me it makes complete rational sense. But to everybody else around me. They're going, Dan, you idiot! Just go and get it diagnosed. It's 50 pounds. Plug it in. It's probably nothing.
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Danny Wareham: Your stress responses make complete sense to you, you going conflict, seeking you, detaching and hiding away and finding solitude. You'll rationalize these responses because it's just you being you. But to other people around you, or Dave's on a rant again. Stay away from him.
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Danny Wareham: If you notice. Whenever the going gets tough, Sarah disappears. We don't see her for days, and it becomes a pejorative again that it's something that you've done wrong. And then you come back to the fold, and you don't realise you've done everything wrong because it was just you being you, and you can rationalize it away.
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Danny Wareham: You have the self-awareness to realize I'm playing out character. It's stress. It's cognitive load. And this is how I react. Then perhaps you could make a more conscious decision on how to get back to composure
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Marion: Oh, my gosh! I am laughing because that literally happened to me on Friday, like no joke where I got a message from my boss now granted he could have done better here, but he sent me a message that he was obviously having some stream of consciousness. And I read it and interpreted it completely different from how he
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Marion: meant to send it. And all of a sudden I'm like, Wait. You think I can't do my job like. I'm not performing like, and he didn't say that, but it was how I joined the dots of his particular conversation, and it was so left field that I'm going.
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Marion: But I just got, like, you know, high performance, my review. How? How am I not performing like La la la! And then
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Danny Wareham: It's
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Marion: Spoke to him, and he's like, Wait what I'm in at all. I'm like, Mary you could have like.
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Marion: you know, you could have like laid that out a little bit better. But that's what we do right? We go into that immediate response scenario, and it's so fascinating just hearing you talk about that
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Danny Wareham: It's recognising. Where do you go? Some people are. They're more comfortable, overthinking and catastrophizing and seeing the worst thing happen
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Wareham: There are benefits to that, because when things actually happen, it's not as bad as you thought, you're more resilient. You can get back here. So higher neuroticism has benefits
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Danny Wareham: But to everybody else it looks like you're overreacting
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Marion: Yeah, yeah.
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Danny Wareham: So yeah, it's not that you're overreacting because it makes sense to you. So how do you understand? When are you at your best? And what kind of derails you? Because you have a choice. I don't do 2 coaching, 1, 2 coaching sessions because I have a choice, and I won't be at my best, so I don't put myself in the firing line.
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Danny Wareham: Do we all consider that when you're at your best, and when you have to spend that energy, you know.
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Cacha Dora: Comes right back to that self awareness. Exactly. It comes right back to it.
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Danny Gluch: One of the the cooler things that that I've seen is is a bit of a trend over the last, like couple of years is, is good managers asking their people, when do you work best? But I think there's almost a bit missing is one the maturity. And do you have the self-awareness to know that
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Danny Wareham: And and 2 is, is a little bit of
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Danny Gluch: That next level question, that deeper question of what you were talking about, of what what happens when you're stressed? What happens when you're, you know, on a roll. And someone says, Oh, Danny's on one today, right? Like that sort of a thing. And really understanding that, I think is is sort of a layer that I think the good managers who are already asking that, I think, can really take away from this conversation of how to take that deeper but I did want to
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Danny Gluch: pivot towards leadership, because, you know.
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Danny Wareham: I think that's 3 times we tried to go to leadership
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Danny Gluch: One of the things that I find so fascinating about leadership is
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Danny Gluch: when when people read things like the the biography of Steve jobs. You, you see, like a couple things happen.
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Danny Gluch: one is is people can understand who he was, and and sort of the flaws and and some of the greatness and go. That was him. But I can still be myself. I don't have to try to be him.
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Danny Gluch: Others will say, Oh, if I want to be great. I need to try to be like that.
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Danny Gluch: And others who do see some of the the dark triad in him and say, great. I'm fully justified in in leaning into that as much as I can because it worked for him.
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Danny Gluch: Can you talk us through? You know, a leader of an organization, or or maybe just, you know, in a larger organization, maybe you know, they're a Vp or or, you know, a head of a division.
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Danny Gluch: What is it that
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Danny Gluch: is healthy and good. How can they control that? Where do they can, you know, try to find the line as a coach where you're stepping over here, and this is not going to be so good
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Danny Wareham: It depends.
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Danny Gluch: That one.
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Danny Wareham: Straight, soon again, straight, again.
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Marion: So.
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Cacha Dora: What a beautiful build for such a beautiful.
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Danny Wareham: Simple answer.
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Danny Wareham: So the key is always going to be self-awareness.
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Danny Wareham: Steve Jobs love him or hate him in retrospect. You can see the behaviors, and how they tie to his personality. So we've talked about low agreeableness. Now, when you finish crying, we've still got stuff to do. And in his biography, and in lots of other publications. You've seen just what an asshole he can be very kind of. We're here to get stuff done. I'm not here to make friends.
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Danny Wareham: However, the anger, hostility facets, and other things that show up.
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Danny Wareham: He was self aware enough to realize that sometimes he has to get out of his own way and the iphone. He didn't. He didn't like phones. He didn't want the iphone. He shot it down lots of times, and it was only because he was able to get out of his own way, be more collaborative and listen to others in that moment which would have took more mental effort, more cognitive load for him at that point
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Marion: That we have things like the iphone. Now.
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Danny Wareham: Or certainly the apple have the iphone, because I'm sure Samsung would have found a way to the market. So even in Steve Jobs example, it's being aware, when are you at your best? And he's at his best when he's driving people and ranting and shouting and holding to high expectations, but also when he's able to step back and go. Actually, maybe I should listen to some people which doesn't come naturally to me, because I'm the most important person in the room.
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Danny Wareham: And that's the difference with the kind of narcissistic traits is that we're going to get things done. We're not here to make friends. I'm optimistic. It's going to happen. We'll bounce back from all these setbacks, from being fired by Apple previously and so on. But I'm also aware enough that I need to tone it down and dial it down intentionally
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Danny Wareham: for the good of the of the tribe, the good of the team.
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Danny Wareham: So again it comes back to it does depend.
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Danny Wareham: because if Steve Jobs was in charge of Microsoft, for example, which is very similar organization, it might not be the right personality blend to lead that context and that company. However, if he was self aware and able to flex his style and learn to shut up sometimes, says Danny. Then
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Danny Wareham: then he could get out of his own way and allow other people to bring all of their superpowers to the table as well. So self-awareness. And it depends
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Marion: But even with the seemingly initial vagueness of that answer, the underpinning to that, as you just explained, it, really really powerful. And if you could bottle that
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Marion: and give that to not just senior leaders. But again, everyone on that leadership journey.
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Marion: That could significantly help people as they move forward and upwards
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Danny Wareham: At the beginning of this conversation we talked a little bit about personality, types, and
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Danny Wareham: We can all accept that the horoscope which produces 12 personality types is scientifically Bs.
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Danny Wareham: You know the day that you are born.
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Danny Wareham: It does not
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Danny Wareham: personality. However, it's in every magazine, it's in every newspaper. You can look on Nbc today, and I guarantee there'll be an article about what's in the heavens for Pisces today. And how do I relate to a Leo? So even though it's Bs, we still have this intrinsic need to know, how do we relate to others?
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Danny Wareham: For me. You can't relate to others unless a couple of things happen. One is, you know, who you are. So anything that gets you inquisitive about learning more about yourself, even if it's horoscopes, is a good step in that direction.
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Danny Wareham: The second is, how do you learn about others? Because other people can look like they're amazing. And they're out of your League, or they can look like assholes as well. But actually, what's the unique powers that they bring? And do you value that diversity in others?
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Danny Wareham: And the 3rd thing is, then do you have the environment that allows you both to bring your superpowers at different times, because there's no point having an Avengers team. If it's only the hulk that gets to do all the work because you're missing out on all of the other superpowers, so
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Marion: Oh!
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Danny Wareham: Do you know you? Do you recognize the strengths in others? And do you have the environment that's inclusive, that allows you to be you and contribute when you need to contribute, and not when you don't
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Cacha Dora: I love that because I think the other thing that really it shines a light on is just this human
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Cacha Dora: tendency. We people want to understand, like how they tick or like, explain this for me, like, why am I this way? Which I think is where a lot of people will gravitate towards things like personality tests or horoscopes, or anything like that. They're looking for something to
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Cacha Dora: validate themselves, and they're also looking for something to explain why maybe the some of those facets that maybe they don't like, or they wish they had, how they could present themselves right like it's that kind of like. Give me the answer, but.
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Cacha Dora: like adjacent to their self awareness.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, we've said on the show a number of times that you know, we're very skeptical about these things, but we like that. It gives people language and opportunity to talk about things that are really difficult to talk about in a business context.
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Danny Gluch: It's hard to talk about, Danny. You're a little loud and a little assertive, and a little aggressive, sometimes in collaboration.
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Danny Gluch: And and yet that's exactly what you need to talk about.
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Danny Gluch: And and it's, you know, for those I really like it. But what happens when a senior leader, or you know the head of the CEO of a company is
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Danny Gluch: is maybe not as self-aware or as self-aware, but just like isn't caring about
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Danny Gluch: the kinds of behaviors that his organization, their organization that was super sexist of me
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Danny Gluch: needs. What do you do? What? What are? What are the mechanisms? What can people tell that person? Is it just like hire? Danny as a coach
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Danny Wareham: So it's certainly one of the answers is to have an outside set of eyes that's kind of impartial, and the kind of metaphor of a fish doesn't know it lives in water. It's just how we do things. It's just how we behave here. But the people standing on the edge of the pond, looking in, can see just how clear or murky it is. So having outside eyes in to provide coaching is one suggestion.
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Danny Wareham: the second is, and again we touched on this earlier in the conversation, the environment, and the culture that you're in the social norms of the group will also modify your behaviors
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Danny Wareham: as an individual, because it's what fits. It's how we get things done around here, as Dweck would say. So what behaviors are being tolerated, good and bad in the organization around this particular leader. And the thing is the leader. Culture is built from the bottom. It's built by the masses, but leaders are incredibly influential. They cast huge shadows. So if you want to change culture quickly engaging the leaders is the way to do it. But sustainably, you've got to have the majority of the people.
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Danny Wareham: because the leader's not in the room most of the time. So the culture determines how we make decisions.
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Danny Wareham: If you have enough people around this particular leader that are holding him or her to account, that are reinforcing what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable, both in terms of recognition for good and bad.
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Danny Wareham: then that can help to modify some of the behaviors, and at some point there will be a tipping point where a conversation needs to be had, and how you broach that it might not be direct. It might be not a non agreeable way of you're a well poisoner, and you need to sort it out. It might be more of a diplomatic, you know, if you were me. How would you go about this particular chat, that kind of thing.
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Danny Wareham: But ultimately it's what are the behaviors that help your organization.
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Danny Wareham: That's what your culture is there to encourage. And if you have behaviors in your organization, regardless of whether they're manifesting because of personality traits or learned behaviors, or coping mechanisms or incompetence.
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Danny Wareham: It's it's the behavior that matters not the operating system, not the wiring of the person.
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Danny Wareham: So again, long convoluted answer, but the long, the quick version is, what's the environment causing and encouraging
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Danny Gluch: And and that's what I think concerns me a little bit is so often you read about, you know, as people
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Danny Gluch: get to these levels of influence and power, especially if their company is, is doing real well, and they have a large vested interest in it. They get to a point where they can self select and really surround themselves with loyalists, and you know it's called the Yes man, right. All they are is surrounded by yes, man, that seems like the worst thing that could possibly happen, based on what you've just told me
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Danny Wareham: But they will rationalize it away.
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Danny Wareham: It makes sense to them. So you'll have people. I won't call out any specific names, but you'll have people that their power has increased. So now they're being unchecked. Their behaviours aren't being checked, even though to everybody else they are ridiculous and destructive.
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Danny Wareham: But if you've if you've created an emperor's new clothes
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Danny Wareham: around you, where nobody's going to check that power, and they're even suckling at the same teats, shall we say, then it's as Mark Twain says, it's hard for somebody to point out a flaw when his job depends on it. His job depends on him, not pointing it out. And that happens in whether it's organizations that are blue chips, whether it's small businesses, whether it's political parties that happens, and it's the result. The symptom is the leader.
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Danny Wareham: the driver is the what's acceptable here. What's the culture?
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Danny Wareham: So if you've got a dodgy salesperson in your environment, we have lots of processes to stop that dodgy salesman. We'll take the commission off them. We'll dismiss them, etcetera. But if there's something encouraging that person to be dodgy, then replacing them and bringing somebody else in doesn't fix the problem.
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Danny Wareham: You need to clean the pond, not the fish, and we often don't look at the pond. We don't look at the culture. We're too busy going. That guy does such and such or that person speaks that way or that.
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Danny Wareham: It's not the person that's the symptom. Something's encouraging those behaviours. It might be personality, it might be narcissistic traits. It might be agreeableness, and they're just avoiding having tough conversations. It could be a number of things. It doesn't really matter what matters is, what's the behavior, and how do we check it?
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Danny Gluch: Wow!
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Danny Gluch: Can we put you in the White House
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Danny Wareham: I'm not a natural born citizen. I'm probably far too high on narcissistic traits to do any good in there anyway.
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Danny Gluch: It's it's so interesting.
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Danny Gluch: This is like a whole other hour. Conversation.
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Danny Gluch: But going back to that toxic or not, not toxic.
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Danny Gluch: the dodgy that that was the
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Danny Wareham: Dodgy.
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Danny Gluch: Dodgy sales.
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Danny Wareham: Ropey Chunky, we're going to.
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Danny Wareham: Is this where you? Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Changing the environment around that to where it is unacceptable to be a dodgy salesperson.
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Danny Gluch: I read a lot of books, and and I still don't know the right way to handle that sometimes it's oh, it's what you measure and what you reward is what will change and make it unacceptable, because there there is no motivation factor, or there is no motivating element to make them want to be dodgy, because they're never rewarded for the production of dodgy behavior.
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Danny Wareham: Are rewarded.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Danny Wareham: Intentionally have reward mechanics that encourage the behavior because we didn't necessarily analyze the
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Danny Wareham: the way through. Or we have apathetic leadership that doesn't spot when they're rewarded or recognized or not. So it just becomes a you get a beijing of the behaviors.
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Danny Wareham: But the thing about culture is culture. It's an emergent factor.
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Danny Wareham: So if you think of time is an emergent factor of a watch.
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Danny Wareham: if you take a watch apart into all its intricate little bits, there's no part of it that tells you the time. Time is only told when it's all put together, and culture is the same. There's so many intricate details that make up the culture of a social group. It's not the individual parts. It's this kind of complex dance they all do together that actually makes it work.
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Danny Wareham: We don't tend to where everybody thinks they've got a good culture, because
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Danny Wareham: because I'm a fish, and I live in a pond, and I don't know I live in water. It's just how it is. It's only when something's on fire. There's punch-ups in the boardroom that we suddenly think. Oh, maybe our culture needs looking at
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Danny Wareham: instead of instead of thinking of culture in terms of good and bad. It's what are the behaviors that you have in your organization? And do they help you towards your organizational strategy?
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Danny Wareham: If they don't, then your culture is mismatched. There are no good or bad cultures. Does it help you with the behaviours that you want
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Cacha Dora: It's a classic line of culture eats strategy for lunch. It's not the other way around, right
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Danny Wareham: For me. It needs both
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Danny Wareham: Culture without strategy is a commune. It's oh, it's a fun place to work where we all get along. We've got beanbag furniture
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Marion: And what
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Danny Wareham: Strategy is a slog. Strategy, is somebody saying, Let's climb this mountain and get to the top. Come on.
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Danny Wareham: you need both. You need culture is the lubricant for your strategy and strategy gives you culture direction. So if you have both that climb up the mountain, you can enjoy the climb, enjoy the view, and it might make you want to climb another mountain next time.
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Danny Wareham: People don't approach it as a strategic tool, they approach it as a. It's a happy place for our employees. Well, the happiest places can go out of business
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Danny Gluch: No.
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Danny Wareham: What behaviors do you need, and how can you be you? So you can contribute towards those behaviors
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Danny Gluch: And don't necessarily be afraid of the dark triad is is what I'm what I'm hearing
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Danny Wareham: Don't be afraid of any personality traits. They all have benefits in context. There are times when agreeableness is good. There are times when low agreeableness is good. There are times when being optimistic and gritty and determined are good, and there are times when we need to make tough decisions.
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Danny Wareham: It it depends
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Danny Gluch: It depends what a great way to end
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Cacha Dora: Catchphrase of the episode
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Danny Wareham: An episode. Title is
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Cacha Dora: It depends. Oh.
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Marion: I hope that I hope that that's your epitaph. When you, when you leave this world and on your on your headstone, it says
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Danny Gluch: It depends.
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Marion: Here lies Danny Waitham. It depends
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Danny Wareham: And yeah, I might take that one. Actually, yes.
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Cacha Dora: Oh!
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Danny Gluch: Mean I love it, though I there, there's so much, I think, that
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Danny Gluch: that people who are already leaders of organizations and teams right now can take away from this, and I think those who are looking to grow in the profession. I think there's a lot of really solid takeaways that people can start looking at themselves now and have confidence. I know for me one of the biggest things. You know, I learned fairly recently was that neuroticism is actually, really, really healthy in
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Danny Gluch: teams and in organizations. And you know, I hope other people can can see that now. And I'm seeing it now about. You know other things that I was like. Wait, no, you can't have that
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Danny Gluch: and I think that's so cool
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Danny Wareham: Neuroticism is, it's underappreciated, it's underappreciated. There are benefits to all personality traits. There are blind spots as well, but it's 1 of the underappreciated ones, particularly in the States, because it feels like if you call somebody high neuroticism, it's like you've told them they've got an sti. It's like a societal. It's a bad thing to say, and it's not
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Danny Gluch: No, honestly.
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Danny Wareham: Cool it.
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Danny Gluch: When we did it as a team they were almost like ostracized to a little like island, like the people of our department who are high neuroticism
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Danny Wareham: Yeah, go over there and worry on your own
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, it was. It was like a leper colony. Don't don't touch those people.
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Danny Gluch: but like it, it actually can be really good. And imagine an organization, or you know, a department where no one was. High neuroticism like that
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Danny Wareham: Worries about deadlines. Nobody worries about getting things done. Yeah. And again, you're missing out on the full gamut of what makes people people. If you're not aware of what you do when you're at your best, and I know this is a broken record, but everybody brings something to the table as long as you allow the table to let them in.
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Danny Wareham: knowing who you are, knowing when you're at your best, knowing what kind of trips you are, those are key tenets to leadership. Even if those leaders have narcissistic traits, psychopathic traits, or
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Danny Wareham: or Machiavellian traits as well know thyself
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Danny Gluch: Hmm!
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Danny Gluch: That's amazing, Mary and Kasha. Any last thoughts or questions for Danny
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Cacha Dora: I have so many questions. But you know what it just means. Maybe we can get another episode.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah. But this is I. I think the thing that is my big takeaway right is the word of traits as opposed to like the full, encompassing
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Cacha Dora: I'll call it label right of like their their selective traits. We're talking a lot about that self awareness. And it's that, take what resonates with you. Leave what doesn't resonate outside of the space. So that means you don't have to conform to being the next Steve jobs. You can just take a couple of traits that resonate, leave everything else behind.
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Cacha Dora: So
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Marion: Hmm.
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Cacha Dora: I have so many questions. Oh, my God! I wanna listen to this again, even though I was just in this conversation
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Marion: I think the one thing I'm really gonna take away from today actually is just going back to that that piece around the underserved under supported middle manager and start to inject some of this wisdom you know about. There's no good or bad, and and it's a spectrum, and and helping them helping raise their awareness earlier in the journey around that because that is gold, absolute gold. And I think if we can start to
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Marion: support managers much, much earlier in the process, instead of leaving them, you know, to fend for themselves and its survival of the fittest.
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Marion: This could be a game changer. So yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Hmm.
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Marion: Pretty, powerful.
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Danny Wareham: Great point Marion, great point
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Danny Gluch: I really hope that
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Danny Gluch: hiring managers and and just hiring strategy of organizations can actually listen to some of this stuff. And it's so interesting the way you called out that they were just so often. It's just like I need a Dave sized hole like it's I need something that will fit Dave, and it's like, Oh, man, it's so short sighted. And and I think that there's a lot of meat here that people, if if they actually think about can take away.
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Danny Gluch: And if you hire the right people, it really is going to change organizations. And and I think this is a really interesting.
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Danny Gluch: definitely
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Danny Gluch: thoughtful, strategic way to do it. And and I really appreciate all of the very practical things that you brought today that people can think about and really align their culture with their strategy. Because
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Danny Gluch: holy smokes. I think that could be game changing for anyone in any size, organization.
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Danny Wareham: Fingers crossed. And, bless you, thank you for saying that, Danny. I appreciate that
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Danny Gluch: You're welcome. Thank you so much for coming on any last words, for our listeners
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Danny Wareham: This is a it's a long episode. I think I will probably leave it if you only listen to one bit. Happy. Bees make tasty honey.
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Danny Wareham: That's my number one mantra.
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Danny Wareham: Lots of organizations focus on the honey. What's our ebitda? What's our earnings per share? What's our outputs? Etc. If you have
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Danny Wareham: people in the right environment with the right culture, the right structure, the right support, the right leadership performance is a side effect. Don't look at the honey.
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Danny Wareham: Just try and create the environment for the happy bees
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Danny Gluch: And for those who are not watching this video, Danny has a wonderful B hexagon little vibe going behind him.
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Danny Gluch: He means it
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Danny Wareham: My branding obviously has bees which is fabulous, but it does become a bit of a lazy gift for others. I'm surrounded by trinkets
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Danny Wareham: off carrot pebbles with bees drawn on them. But there are worse things to have as part of your branding, and we can learn a lot from bees
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Danny Gluch: Awesome. Thank you so much, Danny, for joining us. Thank you all for listening. Be sure to like subscribe. You can find Danny's information and links in the show notes. Be sure to give us a 5 star review. Those are really helpful for people to find us like subscribe. We'll see you next time. Thank you. Everyone
