The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
The Spy Who Slacked Me: Slack Honeypots, Turf Wars, and the HR Tech Hunger Games
🎧 Special Edition – Oh Shit, What’s Happened Now?
This is one of those moments when we pause our scheduled programming because something in the news is just too wild to ignore.
In this special edition of The Elephant in the Org, we dive headfirst into the explosive lawsuit between HR tech giants Rippling and Deel — featuring Slack honeypots, alleged corporate spying, stolen sales data, and actual RICO charges (yes, the kind usually reserved for organized crime).
Rippling says Deel recruited a mole who conducted thousands of unauthorized internal searches to steal client data — all caught via a fake Slack channel set up as a digital trap. Deel says the whole thing is overblown. Meanwhile, the HR tech community is left wondering… who do we trust now?
We unpack:
- What this means for psychological safety in high-growth tech
- Whether surveillance culture is becoming the new norm
- How this could shake employee trust, not just in vendors — but in work itself
And of course, we reflect on what this kind of chaos means for managers, employees, and all of us caught somewhere between hustle culture and HR values. Is this just startup life? Or have we officially entered the HR Tech Hunger Games?
🐘 Connect with Us:
🚀 Follow The Fearless PX on LinkedIn: The Fearless PX
📩 Got a hot take or a workplace horror story? Email Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlesspx.com
🎧 Catch every episode of The Elephant in the Org: All Episodes Here
🚀Your Hosts on Linkedin:
💬 Like what you hear?
Subscribe, leave a ★★★★★ review, and help us bring more elephants into the light.
🎙️ About the Show
The Elephant in the Org drops new episodes every two weeks starting April 2024.
Get ready for even more fearless conversations about leadership, psychological safety, and the future of work.
🎵 Music & Production Credits
🎶 Opening and closing theme music by The Toros
🎙️ Produced by The Fearless PX
✂️ Edited by Marion Anderson
⚠️ Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests, and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations' official policy or position.
WEBVTT
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Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the elephant of the Org. I'm Danny Glutch, and I'm joined by my co-host CACHA DORA
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Cacha Dora: Hello!
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Danny Gluch: And Marion Anderson
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Marion: Hello!
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Danny Gluch: How are you ladies doing today? You ready for some espionage
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Marion: Think we're doing better than our friends at rippling and deal
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Cacha Dora: Oh, yeah, with some with some spy theme music going on in the background. Everyone can plug in their own favorite genre in their head.
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Marion: Already James Bond.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah. Mission? Impossible. All of it. Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: So
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Danny Gluch: we wanted to talk about how, how this even happens like, 1st off like, how does this decision get made to do this to like find someone recruit someone. And like this is legit like mi. 5 slow horses. James Bond. Stuff here like, are our companies set up to do this, and I'm just unaware
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Marion: There's a reason why we all have code of conduct training and go through all of that. You know all of that training and organization. So I would like to think that it's not that common. But I think I mean I think it. It's a bit of a shocker.
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Cacha Dora: Oh, yeah.
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Marion: Own industry, you know.
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Cacha Dora: Well, and I think, like
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Cacha Dora: Danny to your point, like, how is it? Is it common? Is this something we should be like seeing? I'm wondering if the act, if the thing is more of like, what about in the startup fields in these these unicorn fields? If that if it's less like established business, and more like the ones that are trying to really put their claim in. If it's if that's more where we could see activity like this
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. And then I guess that that brings up the question of like, can you trust
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Danny Gluch: startups? Can you? Can you trust any organization that
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Danny Gluch: might be doing stuff like this, both as as a partner or as an employee like, can can they be trusted
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Marion: Yes, I think this is an anomaly. You know. I mean, as far as I know, I've never, you know, experienced anything like this that I've been aware of. So I I'd like to think that this is highly unusual, but it does call into question ethics and integrity and values, and I don't know what the values of of that particular organization are. But
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Marion: you know, it's it's definitely not reflective of what it is that they certainly aim to do with their clients and the audience that they're promoting to right. So
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Marion: Oh, I don't know. I'd hate to be on that board
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: I mean, especially like when what they, the business itself, right? The business itself handles sensitive data. That's what they do
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Marion: Hmm.
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Cacha Dora: And like that, that's such a key component of it. So like, if what you're doing is holding and handling sensitive data
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Cacha Dora: like there's almost this incumbent trust contract that you need going into a conversation because you're assuming
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Cacha Dora: my stuff's good
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: Yeah. Now, obviously, when you're signing contracts with these vendors, you know, they're the. Those contracts are fairly robust, and and you know, protect
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Danny Gluch: So are the, so were the laws, and and they clearly right. They clearly didn't mind stepping past that
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Marion: That's true, that's true. I don't know enough about, though. How far up the chain it went like, was it known all the way to CEO level, or was there someone acting in a silo that? But I don't know
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Danny Gluch: We may, we may never know, for
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Marion: Sure.
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Danny Gluch: I really hope to hear like, see some memos and some some emails and text messages and stuff, though that's gonna be juicy
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Marion: Mobile.
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Cacha Dora: Turn into, it'll turn into a movie. It'll turn into a movie
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Marion: Probably not.
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Danny Gluch: Speaking of, have you guys seen the blackberry movie?
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Danny Gluch: That's a good one.
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Marion: Oh, yeah, that's just no, I haven't seen it, but I've seen but heard about it. Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: It's it's not entirely unrelated to this whole espionage corporate dealing just unethical, like shenanigans. And both that movie and and this, you know, reading the news blurbs reminded me of Adam Grant when he was talking about like givers and takers, and you know there's there's givers, there's matchers, there's takers, and how a lot of organizations think that it's like, Oh, it's okay to have takers in your organization as long as they're like, really productive.
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Danny Gluch: and he says, well, it's fine until their allegiances like don't align with the organization, and then you just can't trust them at all because they're gonna act in their own self interest. And I think organizations can have that kind of mentality, too, of yeah, deal might be really good at what they do, and and you might trust them for a bit.
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Danny Gluch: But if this is how they act, if they're willing to act like this.
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Danny Gluch: then, like at some point, someone's gonna be like, Hey, if we just like. Didn't tell anyone and sold all of this information to like 3rd party marketers, or China or Russia, or you know, Kyrgyzstan like.
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Danny Gluch: maybe we can make a little more money. And all of a sudden that agreement you made with them doesn't mean anything because it benefits them more to break the agreement
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Marion: And
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Danny Gluch: How can you trust that
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Cacha Dora: At.
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Cacha Dora: And then I think, what's also like the articles. There's so many of them spinning around right now because it's so current in the news cycle, but deals, turning around and pointing the finger right back at rippling and being like, well, you're not being good either, like you're also doing bad things, and it's like we're not doing as bad of a thing as you said we did
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Cacha Dora: like. You're blowing this out of proportion and like it's I. When the dust settles the truth, I think that I think that's a huge part, right? Trust and truth. I think the theme here like what's happening.
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Cacha Dora: I think it'll be very interesting, not just for the Hr professionals who use both of these platforms, but just people in this space. It'll be very interesting to see where the where the truth really ends.
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Marion: Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of thoughts. I mean, you both know how I feel about most. Hr platforms. I I have a
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Marion: I have always had a bias towards the smaller and more agile platforms, like rippling like bamboo Hr, just because they give you a lot more
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Marion: flexibility in a lot of ways. Certainly, when you're a startup, right? And you need a 1 stop shop for things the further into the enterprise solutions that you go. That's when I start to lose the will to live because they're typically awful. And and they're slow and they're cumbersome, and they don't give you what you need, and if you, if
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Cacha Dora: You're constrained in their utilization
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Marion: Yeah. And to get what you need, you have to buy extra add-ons. And it's bit of a con most of the time. So yeah, like
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Marion: as a as a bystander, but as a you know, a potential customer for a future customer. For these types of platforms.
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Marion: I feel sick to my stomach because I'm such an advocate for this
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Marion: this type of company, this type of forward thinking, progressive platform. So that's that's a really interesting thing. But the other thing I was thinking about as as I was getting caught up in all. All of this news was
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Marion: when that when that all broke when that all came out, and I woke up as a rippling employee or a deal employee, and saw all of that in the media
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Cacha Dora: Hmm.
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Marion: Like.
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Marion: I mean, I don't know anything about their companies or their company cultures right? And I've never worked there. And I don't know anyone that works there. I don't think directly
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Marion: but like I can't imagine waking it up and being like, wait what you know like.
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Marion: who am I working for what just happened.
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Marion: And I think things like that when you're selling trust, which effectively what these platforms are right is
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Marion: from basic
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Marion: contrast like that must really shake you to your core, especially if you're an employee who's very values led. And and you know a good human being frankly so. I cannot even imagine what those employees are going through
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I think that's a really important thing to think about. It's a lot of these, you know, especially the younger generation. And you know, you have people who listen to our podcast and and read books that we like to read, who are very interested in progressing their careers in ways that aligns with their purpose in life.
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Danny Gluch: And so often people are like, I want to help workers. I want to make the work experience better. I want to work for a place like rippling. That is that, you know. That's what they're doing or deal, and it looks like that's what they're doing.
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Danny Gluch: And then they wake up and go. Oh, my goodness, this is what a breach of trust between employee and organization. Yeah.
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Marion: I mean, the only thing I can really compare that to is, you know, I've worked for brands that are very values led now much bigger to be fair, but you know I think Apple is a great example, and I I you know, an apple
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Marion: perfect, and it's had some things in the press. And what have you bought? Company hasn't right, but I'm trying to imagine if I was an apple employee and something like this happened, how would. I feel, I think.
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Cacha Dora: I think lied to would be the 1st thing that comes to my betrayal. Kind of like a like a cheater in a break in a relationship. Yeah.
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Marion: I would I'd feel very cheated and lost and confused and disappointed in a lot. Lots of things now, disclaimer Apple have not done that I'm just trying to use an example that relates to me. But like it, it would shake me to my very core. I think.
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Marion: Almost like, you know, if you're dating someone and you're totally in love with them, and then you find out they've cheated on you, and you're just like completely.
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Marion: Someone's pulled the rug out from under you. I think that that's how I'd feel, and I would probably be quite
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Marion: mistrusting as I go into future relationships or future employment engagements so
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, 1 1 would call that trauma, informed Marion.
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Marion: Yeah, for sure. I mean definitely, I suspect that there, there may be some people that are feeling like that.
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Marion: But yeah, I think you know.
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Marion: trust, leadership, trust, transparency, all of these things when it's broken internally.
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Marion: Let's dial it back to what we talk about all the time. Psychological safety, you know.
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Marion: I do a lot of thematic analysis across my own research. And and you know, across other kind of work related projects. And I always come back to 3 core things that I think are time and time and time and time again consistent in most organizations that are the key source of a lot of issues, leadership, transparency, trust, psychological safety and manager capability. Like, we talk about these things all the time. Right
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Marion: in the number one thing there, leadership, transparency interest when that's
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Marion: broken, when that's shattered, not just chipped away like psychological contract in the early stages, but actually shattered.
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Marion: You don't come back from that
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Cacha Dora: And I think on top of it, like.
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Cacha Dora: if I were an employee at either one of those companies. And I did have a huge feeling of like pride in product, pride in the company. I was really a active part of the culture
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Marion: Hmm.
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Cacha Dora: Right, like our internal promoters, right?
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Cacha Dora: And I think there's a segment of people who are trying to find out if
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Cacha Dora: and trying to ask themselves the questions of, you know. Was it just this small subset of the organization that did this? Or was this the organization as a whole?
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Cacha Dora: Do I still belong here? Can I still have a place? And or, you know, like, and they start, like, you know, trying to rationalize things, and and that takes its own energy source away from the work that you're actually doing on the job and the work that you're like investing in your coworkers and your peers. And you know, I I really empathize for the employee base, not just the the user base of all these platforms who have a whole bunch of other trust based questions that are coming up.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah them. But like, it's not their fault that this happened
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Marion: No.
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Cacha Dora: You know, but they're companies in the news. And that means that they're friends and family and like coworkers. And
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Cacha Dora: yeah.
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Danny Gluch: You know. What it reminds me of is the Faa Layoffs.
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Danny Gluch: Oh, now just the the environment, the message, the the presence of a threat of future layoffs
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Danny Gluch: impacted performance to a degree where there was a spike in aviation accidents and near misses. There was another one yesterday, another near, miss, and it's 1 of those things that's like
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Danny Gluch: they're creating an environment that all of a sudden it went from safe. And maybe, you know, there were some layoffs. And it's like, Okay, well, maybe that was a good business decision. But now, all of a sudden, they're questioning again. It's like, Oh, now it's really clear that I just can't trust
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Danny Gluch: what's going on. I thought this was a happy good place to be, but it is now very clear that
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Danny Gluch: this is cutthroat, and my neck might be on the line
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: It's hard to perform. Well, when that's the cake
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Marion: Out a really important word a few minutes ago belonging. And you know, in this age of
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Marion: diversity, equity, and inclusion becoming bad words. You know, there's there's often a shift in terminology using belonging, which to me is the same thing, right? Like. If I belong, then I'm in a place where I feel included. And and for me, that's a place where not everyone's homogenized. But everyone's like different and there is equity right? So for me that is belonging.
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Marion: And I've been in situations where I've worked in organizations. And I've questioned, do I belong here? Do my values mirror the values of what I'm seeing around me, either at organizational level or at leadership level, or even just at sub leadership level, right? Because
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Marion: my own feel is that as I mature in age and in my profession. My values have got louder and louder and louder, and when I was younger I couldn't afford to be so value driven, because, you know, you've got to pay bills and put food on the table. But
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Marion: you know, as you get older and you, you are obviously have a little bit more flexibility with how you you know what you spend and how you earn, etcetera, like.
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Marion: I think values start to become so much more important in in how you factor in decisions about where you're going to work and where you're going to put your energy.
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Marion: Because
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Marion: in this day and age. I think we give a hell of a lot of ourselves to our jobs.
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Marion: And especially in our jobs. You know where you're holding space for people all day every day, and it is exhausting. So like I think it does make you question for me to give so much of myself. It has to be to a company that reflects my values, and where I feel like I belong. So
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Marion: wow, it's it's that's a big one.
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Danny Gluch: And so what I've do, I was gonna
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Cacha Dora: Go ahead, Danny!
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Danny Gluch: Do you think that both sides of this rippling end deal? Their employees are feeling that right now.
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Danny Gluch: or is it just on deal side
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Cacha Dora: I think it's both. I think it's both.
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Cacha Dora: I think it's also kind of interesting. Because before we we clicked record on this, we were really thinking about the people who are using the platforms. We were talking a lot about them, but I think the focus
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Cacha Dora: and and I haven't heard the focus in a lot of these articles on the employees of the companies. It's all been on the user base. So I'm being able to highlight the employees, I think, is such a key component to what this feels like, because this kind of activity is not unheard of in the business world.
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Cacha Dora: Right?
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Cacha Dora: And no one signs up to work for. I mean, I'm not gonna say no one clearly, but majority of people, 99.9% of people don't sign up to join a company
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Cacha Dora: where this is the behavior
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Marion: No, I mean if I if I signed up to be a trader in the City of London or the New York Stock Exchange, and it's all frozen. And you know, buy, sell, buy, sell, cocaine fast, fast, right? Ie. Like the TV show industry. That's 1 thing like that's an environment that you anticipate, maybe some weird shit going on.
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Marion: But if I work in the people industry, if I work in, you know human resources, technology or L and D, or any of those areas.
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Marion: I'm not expecting this shit. I'm expecting
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Cacha Dora: No, not at all.
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Marion: People that are reflective of my values, and and that want to do a good job and want to help people
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Danny Gluch: But I think this brings up what was mentioned at the beginning. Does the Hr sort of like purpose and values get trumped
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Danny Gluch: by the startup sort of environment and values the the hey, we're we're going fast. We're going to break stuff. We're going to bend the rules. We're
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Danny Gluch: you know, all of that right that goes along with what it means to be a startup and scrappy and
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Marion: Just laughing at the use of the word trumped, because in both senses it made absolute sense to what you were
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Danny Gluch: That's true. I was using it in the cards. I play cards, trump cards, that's the but yes.
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Cacha Dora: No one can see it but Marion and I both made faces
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Marion: Amazing.
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Marion: Ugh, yes, yeah, I mean.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: I mean, look at what happened to Uber right like, you know, when I was living in San Francisco, Lyft was their corporate headquarters just a couple blocks from from our apartment, and Ubers were not far from there either, and the difference in cultures were so apparent. Right lyft, uber so many different values. Yada! Yada! Yada!
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Danny Gluch: And then Uber was like, Oh, no, we had these huge scandals. It turned out that Lyft wasn't that much of a better place to work for.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: It's it. They were just that competitive. They were just a little bit better at showing it, and not being like overtly sexist and racist, and
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Danny Gluch: but it was still there, like, even with their whole like, yay, we're buddies, we're just trying to, you know, help the community and and offer these rides. They they pitched themselves that way. But the corporate, or like the startup corporate culture of it, you know, trying to become and and
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Danny Gluch: well, how do I say, like, solidify themselves as like 1 billion dollar companies.
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Danny Gluch: it created an environment that like, actually wasn't such a great place and and didn't really reflect their values like that they espoused externally
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Cacha Dora: I think it.
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Cacha Dora: I think there's a huge point in that startup culture is also hustle culture
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Marion: Oh, yeah.
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Cacha Dora: And hustle. Culture is always going to be toxic
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Cacha Dora: because it doesn't take into account the humanity that's powering the machine
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Marion: Yeah. But then there's also a lot of like culture washing and values washing right where you know, companies will understand the value of talking about values and and culture, and wash all of their stuff with that language, but it's as transparent as a window like there's, you know, offer coat. No knickers right? It's all on the surface, and there's nothing happening underneath like that. That is exactly it. It's exactly
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: And I think that that happens now again, do not know if that's the case here at all. Do not know these companies well enough. But like.
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Marion: Yeah, I it's Oh, where are the where are the real ethical companies? Where are they? The ones that
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Marion: still give a damn about their people and their customers authentically.
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Marion: and not just for a quick buck
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Cacha Dora: Put their names in the comments below
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Danny Gluch: You want to work for them, I'd work with them
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Cacha Dora: And here and learn from them, turn them into case studies. But I I think I think company culture is so important to to the psychological safety of the employee. Right?
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Cacha Dora: And they they are so co-intermingled.
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Cacha Dora: But it is 2025, and we are talking about corporate espionage guys like
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Marion: The Hr. Space
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Cacha Dora: Like I am.
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Cacha Dora: I just I gotta call that back like what
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Marion: Hmm. So so let's talk about the honeypot, because obviously they set a trap right slack with a fake slack account, and you know they? They set this kind of honey trap type thing.
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Marion: I mean can't imagine how quickly and how much that would undo any
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Marion: work that had gone into building, you know, internal trust and psychological safety. And and you know I mean we struggle in Hr enough as it is, I mean, let's face it. How many times have you had the I promise. The engagement survey is confidential conversation, like I mean conversation like a million right?
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Marion: and so shit like this kind of like doesn't help the cause.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: No, no, I think that's such a great call out like, how
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Danny Gluch: is there even a way that you could counter message and help people trust that like. No, no, no, we only did this because we thought it was like a really like external plant spy kind of thing. We're not going to be watching you. We're not going to be setting a trap to, you know.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: You! And oh, boy.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, cause like I, you always like hear
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Cacha Dora: in articles when when they're writing about how
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Cacha Dora: it and or Hr are really only in it for the business that mindset of like they're there to protect the business. Careful what you write, careful what you write, everyone, a big brother, everyone's watching you there there. And so for people who do have that mentality or have worked at companies where you know how many times they move, the mouse counts. Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: And if they're working in an environment like that, like again, it goes right back to trust right? Like, well, should I send this message to a coworker?
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Should I just text them on the side? Well, now, you're having like questions that should be happening at work happening on a phone because they don't trust to do it on the tools that the business provides, like it really does drive right back to trust
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Marion: Absolutely.
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Danny Gluch: It really does. It's it's the digitized panopticon.
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Danny Gluch: It's you're always being watched. Everything that you're doing on your company computer could be used against you.
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Danny Gluch: And so what do you do like? Do do you have any trust? Can you be authentic? It's just
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Danny Gluch: just the fact that they did. This destroys any sense that people can be challengers which is like at the core of psychological safety. Right?
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Danny Gluch: Or are they just going to wait for me to challenge something so that they can, you know. Oh, we're just gonna do this on a performance thing. And now you're gone, or, you know, bring it up in a meeting and find a way to dismiss you because you're not, you know, rowing in the right direction. Like
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Danny Gluch: boy, this sets a really scary precedence for everyone who works there
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Cacha Dora: And the managers, those poor people, managers who are gonna be just being thrown like trying to catch a salmon up river or down river. Whatever the analogy is, ignore me. I'm tired, but like I've had no coffee today, guys
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Danny Gluch: Here's Fisher, Fisherman, are you
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Cacha Dora: Doing great. No, make me a nature duty, that is you.
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Cacha Dora: You're the nature, guy, but I I do think that the these poor managers are just gonna get slapped around with these trust questions that they are questioning
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Cacha Dora: themselves, and they're probably being given guidance, I would hope.
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Cacha Dora: But like these managers aren't just the people who are working in deal and in rippling. It's also the managers of all of their clients.
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Marion: Hmm, yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Like I feel so bad for managers just across the board in this particular situation, because it doesn't matter where you're working.
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Cacha Dora: The question of trust is gonna happen everywhere. Right now, what about my data? What about this like? What about that? And you know, like, are you guys gonna change platform like it. It's gonna oh, I I do not. I do not envy their plight right now.
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Marion: No, and I think it's compounded by a lot of other things like a a question. I ask a lot of people right now whether it's through my Phd research, or, you know, external consults, or whatever whatever it is.
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Marion: I asked them how much the external environment is impacting their internal environment. And because that's significant, right? And when I think about all of this that's going on. And then I think about the the compounding of
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Marion: you know what we're feeling right now, with all of the the Federal layoffs and Doge and and and all the other shit that's happening, which I think is really heightening
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Marion: that anxiety and fear over being, you know, being constantly under surveillance. Not to mention did my company have an Rto mandate. And now I'm being policed as to whether I'm sat at my desk or not, like all of that on top of this like
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Marion: this is, this is, this has gone. I feel like we've just gone back a hundred years like I.
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Marion: You know, I'm
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Marion: I'm kind of lost for words as to how significant this moment is in employee psychological safety and employee voice and employee experience like.
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Marion: I can't imagine
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Marion: working in an environment which is already fairly old school and now believes it has a license to go back to the Victorian era because of what's happening
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Danny Gluch: That's what's scary. It's the the old school mentality with modern weapons of war.
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Danny Gluch: right? With actual ability to measure keystrokes and mouse movements. And your proximity around the building, and tags and stuff they used to not have that used to have a a punch card that you would punch in, and that's what they'd be able to test
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Marion: Like.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, it's so different. Now.
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Marion: The most disturbing one I've heard is a heat sensor under your desk that's disturbing
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Danny Gluch: What?
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Cacha Dora: Oh!
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Marion: So so it's icky, like all of this is really icky. And yeah, trust works both ways.
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Marion: And I
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Cacha Dora: Really.
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Marion: And I think that you know employees
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Marion: are now not just dealing with
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Marion: salary inequity, or, you know, inclusion, but they're now dealing with this crap as well
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: So I've got question
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Cacha Dora: Okay.
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Danny Gluch: They were clearly justified in setting this honeypot and really trying to trap this person
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Marion: Of course.
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Danny Gluch: Should they have done it? Should they not have done it like? What were their alternatives
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Cacha Dora: Well, it's not like they could send a memo out warning the company they were gonna do it
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Marion: Yeah, I mean on their typewriter
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Danny Gluch: Thank you.
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Danny Gluch: No like you had to be closed lipped. This had to be like no one could know. You couldn't be like, hey, everyone that we still do trust. We're
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: This one person. But don't worry. We will never do this for you like what what were they supposed to do like? Honestly, I don't know
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Marion: I don't know enough about how that would play out. I genuinely don't. I don't feel I can comment on that. You know this is much, but like for decisions of this nature to be made, lawyers
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Marion: should have been involved. I don't know if they were right, but if someone went rogue, and did crap like this
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Marion: without any legal advice.
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Marion: God help them!
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Cacha Dora: Yeah. And and Marion to your point, like also th, there's so much that's going on in this particular in this particular story, right?
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Cacha Dora: It also involves everything from like your data prime like a lot of these large businesses. They have a whole data privacy division. They've got a cyber security division and department like they have all these other departments that really work in in lieu in tandem. I'm sorry not in lieu in tandem to help protect and help set these guardrails in place so
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Cacha Dora: like
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Cacha Dora: it's not just Hr that that's like scratching their heads, I'm sure, over this, like in any other place like
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Cacha Dora: people in cybersecurity, and people in data protection are probably going like, what? What happened to get to that point
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Marion: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah. And
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Cacha Dora: and there's a lot that we're probably not gonna know. That'll only be really disclosed in in the courts and stuff like that.
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Marion: It's need to do
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Cacha Dora: In the movie. Yeah, which will be a version of like 12 truths. But like.
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Cacha Dora: there's so many factors that really tie into this. It's not just. Hr, it's not just the employees like it. There's so many things like when you really start thinking about it. The factors at play like the variables
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Marion: Hmm.
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Cacha Dora: Oh, my God! The variables.
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Marion: Hmm, hmm.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. And and one of the variables, I bet they didn't actually consider is.
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Danny Gluch: how is this going to affect the trust and psychological safety of the rest of our employees
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Danny Gluch: after we do this, to someone who who was an employee
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Right like. I bet they didn't ask that question, and if they did like.
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Danny Gluch: I have no idea what alternative action they they could have come up with
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Marion: Yeah, I mean, we we don't know, and we'll never know. And we're we're
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Cacha Dora: Right.
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Marion: Really speculating right? So I I don't know. But it just all I do know is that if if I was an employee there and that happened around me.
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Marion: I'd I'd I'd already be like looking for my next role. I'd be out the door. I wouldn't be
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, and and that
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Danny Gluch: that's just as much of a I'm looking to leave as if I was on the accused side and worked for for a deal
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Danny Gluch: Right. I would. I would be like it doesn't matter. If I were with either of those companies. I would be looking to leave
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Danny Gluch: Asap
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, I I feel for them, and I like it. Just you were because we're both saying that. And I was like God, I would not want to be in a town hall after this, at either of those companies
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Danny Gluch: I would love to be
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Cacha Dora: I don't know. I feel like speaking of anxiety. I feel like it was like just the idea of it made me like internally cringe like. That that
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Cacha Dora: talk about being able to hear a PIN drop potentially, which would probably be over Zoom. But that's not the problem
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Danny Gluch: I would love to ask the rippling CEO, how can you guarantee you're not going to honeypot me
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: I would love to ask that
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: I want assurances.
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Marion: Yeah, I know. And alright, Whoa.
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Cacha Dora: So complicated. It's so
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Marion: It really is. i i i can't. I can't really fathom how I feel about it, because it's
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Marion: it's not clear cut at all.
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Cacha Dora: And we don't have enough information right like to. To quote another Danny, that we all very much enjoy. It all depends right
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Marion: Perfect.
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Danny Gluch: Future episode.
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Cacha Dora: Yes, plug it in now, friends. But I I think there's so like I said, there's so many variables there's so much we don't know and like there's how long was this going on for before they made that decision? Right? What? What was this? A. No recourse for them. Have they already like tried things that we don't know about? You know what I mean like? There's so much of that that again. We just don't know. All we're seeing is the very end of the tail.
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Marion: yeah, absolutely. Oh, it's so. Juicy
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Cacha Dora: It is, and there's so many articles about it. There's so many speculative articles people trying to get things and quotes. But obviously neither com company is gonna really do a huge amount of commentary on it. So both going into legal things. So it's like, you know, it really is just this juicy wtf! Oh, my gosh! Like wow!
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Marion: Your holiday.
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Cacha Dora: 3 letter acronyms. You can think of guys
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Marion: Yeah. And it happened right on the eve of Transform. So 1st day of transform, I think, is when the news broke, or maybe the day before. I'm not sure but everyone turns up and someone posted a great photo on Linkedin in our community where there's a Trans transform. You've got the rippling booth, and you've got in the background, and I was like, Oh, no.
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Cacha Dora: That had to have been tense, tense, and awkward.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, good.
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Cacha Dora: The wait and see. The wait and see will be
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Danny Gluch: I'm really curious to see if Deal was doing similar things with other partners.
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Danny Gluch: and and how the industry is going to treat them. Are they going to treat them like lepers where they're just like, look, every contract is now in breach, and we're going to try to get out.
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Danny Gluch: Oh, they'll be out of business. They're not.
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Danny Gluch: I'm really curious to see see where it goes from here. But I'm also really interested to see what what you all think we couldn't learn as employees, as Hr. Professionals, as organizational leaders. What can we learn from this like
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Marion: Going to go back to my my transparency and trust comment like that has to be
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Marion: absolutely paramount for every leader, transparency and trust, transparency and trust, because when there are security breaches
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Marion: and it's covered up and and not really kind of like
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Marion: shared or discussed or acknowledged. And then people. Then get the eck like.
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Marion: yeah, that that just decimates psychological safety and culture in one go like, at least, if you screw up and you own it.
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Marion: You're showing integrity, vulnerability. These are excellent leadership qualities, yet might suck in the short term right? But you know, people
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Cacha Dora: What you build in the long term is massive
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Marion: Employees will respect you so much more than they do when you're trying to be shifty and and hide things under the rug. And no, I don't want to work for a leader like that. I'll take someone who can own their shit all day every day. But someone who
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Marion: is not transparent, and hates this type of thing.
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Marion: Not for me.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah, I think
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Cacha Dora: I think in a lot of ways, leaders can learn from this and the what not to do category
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Marion: Okay.
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Cacha Dora: Right, and
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Cacha Dora: the the need for communication will be paramount for their direct reports for their colleagues, and being able to lean into that
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Cacha Dora: that transparency of communication right now.
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Cacha Dora: because it it is a giant unknown right, and people are uncomfortable in an unknown ambiguity is not something that comes naturally to people.
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Cacha Dora: Dealing with change typically does not come naturally to people. And so when they're in that kind of uncertainty.
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Cacha Dora: what managers can learn how to listen
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Cacha Dora: And not maybe to provide a solution because you're not gonna have one. Today, you're not gonna have one tomorrow.
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Cacha Dora: So listen to be present for your people.
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Cacha Dora: and be a voice to actually then work through your leadership too. What can managers learn how to speak to their superiors?
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Cacha Dora: I think that I think it's a good growth opportunity truthfully, for leaders in how to navigate uncertainty
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. Oh, boy, there's a lot of uncertainty
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Cacha Dora: Right? Yeah. Cause I mean, like, if the public is speculative.
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Danny Gluch: Imagine what the employee base is feeling and and the conversations they're having and and what managers have to deal with. Yeah, that's a
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Danny Gluch: boy, do I feel for them right now?
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Danny Gluch: I'm really curious to see
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Danny Gluch: over the next couple months how leadership, especially at rippling handles, this. What messages they do to try to repair the trust with their own employees?
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Danny Gluch: What policies they they might put into place of, you know I'm always curious like when you see the sign of a building like, you know, hey? Don't, don't grab this handle. It's like, well, someone grab that handle and something went bad. So now there's a sign for it. I'm really curious to see like what Paul like. Do they have any sort of like ad hoc.
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Danny Gluch: reactionary policies of like who they do business with, or how they they go about hiring and vetting and things like that. I'm really curious to see if they're reactionary, or if they're like, you know what we actually did have a good process. This was a 1 off, of whatever reason, you know, that they found that we we actually don't have to make any big changes
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Marion: As part of the investigation process. That's that's a given right? You're gonna you're gonna dig into points of failure. What went wrong? What can be improved, and there will be things that can be improved. There always is right
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: It's never perfect. But I think the bigger issue is when maybe, and again speculate and do not know if this is the case. So I'm speaking generally, but like, if if
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Marion: people are aware that there's issues, but either don't fix them or can't fix them, and then shit happens. Now
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Cacha Dora: Or they can't feel safe to speak up. In the 1st place.
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Marion: Yes, exactly. The psychological safety doesn't exist. That bigger issue.
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Marion: And yeah, that that's a whole different kettle of fish. So
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I think the the ability to listen to those employees of like.
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Danny Gluch: you know. I wonder if people were saying like, Hey, this guy's a little shady
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Danny Gluch: You know, and and oh!
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Cacha Dora: Some weird off off color questions. Here, I don't understand. That's out of context. Yeah, yeah.
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Marion: Who knows?
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Cacha Dora: We might never know
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Until the movie comes out
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Cacha Dora: Until the movie comes out. But Marion, I do think you bring up a good point, right like when you're investigating points of failure.
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Cacha Dora: How often do organizations as a whole ask the question, did people feel safe enough to speak up? In the 1st place.
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Marion: Yeah, how often do businesses ask that question? I know
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: No enough, so
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. And I mean, part of it is, do they?
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Danny Gluch: Do they respond to results? Or do they respond to process right like, oh, the if something resulted in this. So let's let's do a patchwork, you know, change of policy here, or do we look at the process, find the failures in the process and fix that I
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Danny Gluch: been big on scene you know, especially with a whole signal gate also going on right now.
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Marion: Oh, God! Oh, God! That's
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Cacha Dora: Other conversation good day.
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Danny Gluch: It. It is a different conversation. But it's also, you know, kind of similar of
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Danny Gluch: a lot of people aren't worried about it because it didn't result in any really horrific thing happening as opposed to.
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Danny Gluch: you know, her emails Benghazi stuff where the process was was fine. But something tragic did happen. And it's because the results were bad that they're like, Oh, no, we have to do investigations and changes
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: And it just I really wonder if they're gonna look at the process or just be like the result. Was this. So we need to respond to the result, and I don't think that's good long term business
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Marion: And that comes down to integrity and leadership, transparency and trust, and
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: All the things
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Danny Gluch: It really does all right. Any final thoughts, ladies.
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Cacha Dora: It all depends
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Cacha Dora: Kidding. No, I will say I I think that the thing that's really in my head is I'm it's the wait and see. I'm so curious to see what's like really going to happen. And
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Cacha Dora: in the the weird part with new cycles is things always tend to fall off and then pop back up again.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Cacha Dora: So like something else, and if anything this year has taught us is that the new cycle always has something very interesting.
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Cacha Dora: Whether or not we like. It is a different conversation.
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Cacha Dora: I think the wait and see like this might be a slow burn
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Cacha Dora: till we really learn what truly happened.
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Cacha Dora: And that means that what we learn might take a long time
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Marion: Hmm!
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Marion: Well, all I'm gonna say is, hopefully, this doesn't cause a rippling effect across the industry.
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Danny Gluch: That's so good
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Cacha Dora: Oh, you were holding that you were holding that 10 out of 10, Mary
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Danny Gluch: Oh, we have an episode, title.
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Cacha Dora: I'm so glad you went after me. I couldn't afford that
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Danny Gluch: Be sure to like and subscribe for more jokes like that.
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Marion: Week. Tip your server
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Danny Gluch: Please leave a five-star review, and your favorite dad joke as a comment.
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Danny Gluch: My Brendan's favorite dad joke
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Danny Gluch: Why can't you hear a pterodactyl go to the bathroom because the P. Is silent
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Cacha Dora: Oh, my God!
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Marion: And on that note, everyone. We'll see you next time
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Danny Gluch: Bye.
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Cacha Dora: Bye.
