The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
Data: Great for Marketing Plans, Terrifying for Fragile C-Suite Egos with Angelique Slob
Leaders love to claim they're "data-driven" — right up until the numbers challenge their egos. In this episode, Marion, Cacha, and Danny sit down with Future of Work strategist Angelique Slob to dig into why industrial-era mindsets still dominate modern workplaces, why ignoring internal data is costing organizations dearly, and how real workplace experience data can future-proof culture, engagement, and leadership. Buckle up — the future’s here, and it doesn’t care about your feelings.
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🎙️ About the Show
The Elephant in the Org drops new episodes every two weeks starting April 2024.
Get ready for even more fearless conversations about leadership, psychological safety, and the future of work.
🎵 Music & Production Credits
🎶 Opening and closing theme music by The Toros
🎙️ Produced by The Fearless PX
✂️ Edited by Marion Anderson
⚠️ Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests, and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations' official policy or position.
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Danny Gluch: welcome back to the elephant in the org, everyone. I'm Danny Gluch, and I'm here as always, with my co-host, Cacha Dora.
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Cacha Dora: Hello!
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Danny Gluch: And Marion Anderson.
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Danny Gluch: She's singing again. Hello! Good morning.
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Danny Gluch: and we're joined today by Angelique Slob. Angelique. Introduce yourself.
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Angelique Slob: Hi, I'm Angelique. I'm from the Netherlands. I'm currently in Amsterdam, and
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Angelique Slob: the last 1015 years I've been helping companies to become future, ready by embracing chains and adapting to new ways of work, so that they can increase their business success.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I mean, I love that right. Get ready for the future. Embrace, change. How are we going to do that data? The elephant in the org, though, is that leaders? They like data when it supports what they were already going to do.
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Danny Gluch: But if it's like Andy, Jassy and Amazon when it's, you know, I want people to return to office. Well, the data says, that's a really terrible idea. Well, I don't care about data. Now, I'm just going to do do it, anyways. And and I feel like that's that's probably not a growing trend. It's probably not a trend at all. It's probably just a status quo, right? Is that how people have always done it.
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Angelique Slob: It's if you think about it. I've been thinking about it more and more in the last year or so the last few years. It's actually quite strange, because when it comes to, for example, market research leadership teams really rely on data, there's all kinds of decision making around data. But when it comes to people.
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Angelique Slob: And I just say it is because it is about people. Suddenly we move to to gut feeling and our past experiences.
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Angelique Slob: And that is problematic, because especially a lot of our leaders. And although they're like Super, smart and very good in what they do, they are often also grown into their leadership position by having a support system. For example, a wife who would take care of everything so they could be a proper breadwinner and develop their career, and somehow they fail to see that that is not the case for everybody.
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Angelique Slob: So, Kasha, you're gonna love this from the diversity perspective.
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Angelique Slob: And I think there's another thing that I've learned over the years working with leadership teams. We are embedded in an industrial mindset. So what we learned from Taylor and ford. That work needs to happen between certain hours and productivity is connected to input and hours.
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Angelique Slob: And it's a 5 day work week. And as an employer. You own the time of the employee that is very, very deeply embedded in our belief systems.
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Marion: And.
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Angelique Slob: So, therefore it's very, very hard for for leaders to step back from that. And
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Angelique Slob: and this is why it's hard for them to to look at data that proves something that goes against what they believe.
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Danny Gluch: Wow! That's that old man. That's incredible. I don't know where to start that that industrial mindset
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Marion: Oh, man!
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Cacha Dora: It. It makes it makes so much sense, though, when you really think about the like.
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Cacha Dora: you're brought up in a as a young person in a career. And you're told that this is how it works, and so to be challenged. Right people don't adjust to change very well, right as much as we all love to say that we are very good at change right? Whether you're like bridges. And you're talking about the Change Curve. People don't like to feel uncomfortable.
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Cacha Dora: And if they're being challenged to look at things differently and actually evaluate, does it worked then? Maybe does it work now, really? And if they're being challenged to actually evaluate that when they've just always been told it works like, Are you actually gonna stop and evaluate that.
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Angelique Slob: Yeah.
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Angelique Slob: and it's about values as well. So I worked with a with a smaller marketing agency and the founders they. This is years ago, 10 years ago. They really wanted to have this modern
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Angelique Slob: way of working with flexible hours, and people following their energy, and
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Angelique Slob: that was embedded in their philosophy, and all the employees were very young, like early twenties, and most of them were still living in their parents.
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Angelique Slob: and they came from a region where they come from a region where, like getting up very early and showing up work early and work really hard is very values. So the core values of the families really were embedded in that, you know, you have to work hard. You have to be there early. So at 1 point they were like, why are the employees always showing up early while we actually give them the freedom to. Maybe, you know, have different times. And I was like.
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Angelique Slob: after a little bit a few conversations. It was like.
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Angelique Slob: I actually think their parents are not really happy. They will probably just send them to work.
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Angelique Slob: If not.
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Angelique Slob: they're probably just like knocking the at the doors at 6 in the morning like, Get up! You have to go to work.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Angelique Slob: And that's also one of those things like, how can you help and guide people to to discover their own natural rhythm? Or what hours are my most.
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Marion: You don't have.
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Angelique Slob: Built in breaks in the day all those things that are really important for us. It's difficult if we are still in that like like this is work time, and this is
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Angelique Slob: leisure time.
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Marion: Absolutely. And this is where you know, we, our primary focus, everything. We rotate around the psychological safety right? Because we truly believe that it is the the absolute foundation of creating a successful organizational culture. Right? And
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Marion: you know, if if you have psychological safety, then people have the space to discover their own rhythms and figure out what what works best for them, and not be feeling like.
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Marion: you know, they're under a microscope, or they can't nip out and go to the dentist or get a haircut, or do whatever they need to do.
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Marion: and and and figure out work around that as well it. It's
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Marion: It's so weird to me. Just kind of reflecting back of where we've come from
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Marion: to where we were during the pandemic. And now this kind of existential crisis that we're having in industry, where we're we're pulling backwards again.
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Cacha Dora: That pendulum swing was 7.
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Marion: Wild, and the damage the damage is done.
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Marion: you know, when, when organizations are then mandating and pulling people back, the damage is absolutely palpable. And and that's the thing. Transparency and trust is the biggest erosion of psychological safety. And when companies, I think there's so many, there's so many nuances and culprits here.
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Marion: companies who you know your Jp. Morgans of the world, who are like, don't give a crap about what your needs are. Get your ass back in the office. You've got that that extreme. Then you've got the other companies that give these very ambiguous or better together statements. But don't actually explain what it is that they're looking for. So there's this UN
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Marion: unknown, unexpressed expectation which actually is even more toxic when it comes to psychological safety, because you really just don't know where you stand. And then you've obviously got the other companies who have figured it out, who treat their people like adults and are the only companies in the world right now that have decent engagement scores and and good retention and stuff like that.
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Marion: So like the data is there?
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Marion: But why are? Why are we not using it like, why is that like, really? Why.
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Cacha Dora: Yeah.
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Marion: Doing it.
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Cacha Dora: Cause. Gallup Gallup keeps releasing how engagement is just going near near just down. I realize that no one can see my hands tanking. So I'm just gonna say that I just did that. But let's go.
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Danny Gluch: Podcast, etiquette.
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Cacha Dora: Thank you. But yeah, like, I mean, the reports from Gallup on engagement are just like, was it 36%? It wasn't like, you know like it. Just it keeps dropping in these very low numbers, and it's very telling, and something.
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Danny Gluch: Wanted to circle back to from Angelique. When your 1st statement just really captured me about, they'll listen to market research and market research is also about people, and they trust that so much. And it'll drive so many decisions and rightfully so like.
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Danny Gluch: it's been shown when you ignore market research and just go on your instincts. You're likely to have failed investments. So you follow the market research. And it's about people. And it's it's not 100% concrete.
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Danny Gluch: But then, when you do your internal numbers and you do your research, and you ask your people, and you're looking at trends in your region and trends globally
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Danny Gluch: all of a sudden. Well, but we don't like those answers. So we're going to ignore those just like what Marian was talking about. Well.
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Danny Gluch: do you think that there's a certain logic that people are using to where we can trust market research, but not our our people. Research.
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Angelique Slob: I really it's a good question. I think it is something to do with that industrial mindset. That is the kind of closest that I've come to an explanation. But also our ideas is like, you know, someone said, well, I worked. I learned from my colleagues when I started working, so people need to be in the office to, so they can start first.st They need to learn in the office to start learning from each other and work together. And I
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Angelique Slob: let's just said to someone like, you know, that's like asking someone to learn how to ride a horse before they can take their like. The driver.
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Danny Gluch: Because that's how someone did it originally was. Well, I learned how to ride a horse first.st
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Angelique Slob: So we don't need to learn those like skills that you know
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Angelique Slob: actually obsolete. But it is about that. So you, you say, like, this is how I learned. And this is how I created my connections and how I started my career. So I'm literally just assuming that that goes for everybody, and not
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Angelique Slob: that there is a whole new reality out there where people actually learn very different ways, online or just, you know, even
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Angelique Slob: even in out things that are not literally related to work. And a lot of people also have
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Angelique Slob: maybe a job where they that they do next to their remote job, for example, also gives them all kinds of skills. So I think it is that the paradigms about what we learned about work, and I've been using for a while I had a tagline on my profile like rethinking work, and the place it has in our lives.
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Angelique Slob: And I think it's both. It's like we have to rethink work, but also what the place is that work has in our lives.
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Cacha Dora: And.
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Angelique Slob: Yeah. And I think it's also. And another thing is that so we we touched on Gallup and engagement. We touched on
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Angelique Slob: just before we actually started. The recording I mentioned Liesman is like one of like a benchmark around more space uses. But what I've noticed, and especially I partnered with workplace, which is a workplace strategy and experience and an analytics platform.
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Angelique Slob: And
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Angelique Slob: there isn't actually a data set available till now that really captures workplace experience. So workplace has that as this in in the survey built in and in the tooling built in.
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Angelique Slob: And of course, it's a product designed for companies for workplace experience, but workplace strategy. But that is an Hr issue nowadays, nowadays, because it's about hybrid. It's about personalities, inclusive office designs. It's about conscious real estate choices, experience led workplaces. And this is all becoming the center states of today's employee. Value proposition.
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Angelique Slob: So workplaces, as far as I know, the only tool that actually captures all this kind of data. And we are working with companies. But we're also doing a large research in the middle Eastern region with some partners. And there's there isn't like the scale of that research in in that region that is like the 1st time that there is a
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Angelique Slob: research on that scale. But also, I think the the data points that we are collecting.
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Angelique Slob: Yeah, so there will be. And I, of course, there is a lot of research around hybrid work. And Nick Bloom is is a researcher. I think there is also some kind of almost
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Angelique Slob: contempts for scientific research and leadership teams.
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Danny Gluch: Hmm.
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Angelique Slob: But it
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Angelique Slob: that connected to the actual organization. They might start moving quicker. Because if there is like, you show this data, and you say this is research, and it's done. And it's really, you know, all solid. And it shows that there is a brain drain when you start mandating offices like that. Actually, that that exist.
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Angelique Slob: Yeah.
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Angelique Slob: Then, you know, they don't feel that has anything to do with them. I suppose. So.
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Angelique Slob: Yeah, but yeah.
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Marion: Absolutely. And and this is the world that I'm living in right now. Right? Obviously, I'm kind of coming towards the end of my Phd, and I'm I'm writing my thesis. And my research is how how companies approach remote hybrid return to office and how that impacts the employee. Psychological safety.
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Marion: And
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Marion: I, it's mixed methods, right? So there's qual and quant research in there. There's I feel that. And this is anecdotal. I can't back this up with data, but based on my own observations. There's a bias towards the the quantitative data versus the qualitative data. And it's often seen as Fluff.
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Marion: It's not. It's handled in a scientific manner. But you know what I am seeing is that even when you are including quantitative data to underpin the qual
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Marion: backs it up. 100 like it clearly shows through numbers, sentiment, or turnover, or, you know, a bunch of other regular kpis that we look at every day, and the data is there. So I'm a huge nick bloom fan, mark, ma, all these guys, I'm avid readers of their work. And I think that these voices are really important and need to continue to be amplified.
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Marion: And it's tough, because on a daily basis, you know, when you're a researcher and you're spending so much time in this data. And you're you're screaming it from the rooftops as they are. And I try to.
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Marion: And you see what's happening around you.
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Marion: God! It's rough.
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Cacha Dora: And what's so? What's so wild, too, is like, if we were to even like move ourselves on a timeline like 5 years from now, and if we were to be like, what would the results of a longitudinal study be.
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Cacha Dora: On hybrid, specifically from like pre pandemic pandemic post, pandemic, like
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Cacha Dora: what would, and then add on that
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Cacha Dora: that qualitative and and all of the other pieces. That longitudinal study I feel like would be the wildest journey, because they would be like we thought we had the results. And then the results like really drastically shifted, and then they shifted again and like that launch. But I think also a business, Angelique. To your point.
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Cacha Dora: I think a lot of businesses don't want those studies, not because
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Cacha Dora: they don't want the data. I think they don't want to be told that they're not good is, and I know that that's like at the end of the day, I mean, like, that's just a weird thing to say. But like they always, I think most businesses want to be, not just in the right, but they want to be the shining example, right? Like, there's a lot of ego. There's a lot of pride. There's a lot of
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Cacha Dora: well, I need to hold my spot on Danny Danny's point of being back in the marketplace like they want to hold all of this.
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Marion: Control. I want to ask a question, though, and we we ask this question a lot in in all of our episodes at the moment.
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Marion: How much do we think the external environment is shaping this issue.
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Danny Gluch: Like the external political environment.
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Marion: Absolutely. I mean, you just have to.
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Angelique Slob: Is, that.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Angelique Slob: So I'm from Europe, and, like most companies, stick to hybrids
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Angelique Slob: except companies that have an American leadership team or like.
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Marion: Thank you.
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Angelique Slob: I can. That is, there have. They're part of an American holding, and you can see that there is a larger push to return to office, for example.
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Angelique Slob: it's definitely becoming a political thing. And also even like one company. I'm not gonna mention the name, but it is a well known tech company
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Angelique Slob: and they are going back to the office full time. And it's because of a new CEO. And I've been working in companies as an Sr. For many, many years, and
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Angelique Slob: every time it's it's all also one thing a new CEO wants to kind of make a change. Make a statement.
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Angelique Slob: You know, this is kind of the easy thing to do, especially if the environment is, you know, just giving this kind of idea that successful businessmen or
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Angelique Slob: successful. Most successful businesses are 5 days in the office, so
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Angelique Slob: easy statement and then ignore the data.
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Angelique Slob: and it leaves, of course, workplace, the workplace managers with a big problem. Hr sticks with a big big problem and they don't have any data they can. They can speak up. They can. They can force their concerns, and they can point to the, to the overall data that is there from Nick Bloom, for example. But it wouldn't be enough.
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Angelique Slob: So workplace, there is an actual. You can look at the actual organization. So, for example, there is a and that is only based on personality types. Certain personality types have certain personality types. You have a higher risk of of retention or like a exposition, if you would mandate office time.
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Angelique Slob: and we just show them a percentage. So that would be like 10% of your workforce might leave. If you move to, you know, more mandated office time.
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Angelique Slob: And we can also see in the data what the exact hybrid balance is that that would be optimal for the company.
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Angelique Slob: and that is based on activities, personalities, remote preferences, etc.
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Angelique Slob: And that's that's interesting. But it also shows you there is a functionality that shows you what kind of demographics are at risk. If you would move to 2 different kind of offices.
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Angelique Slob: And then what I like is, if you if you look at the data and you say, Okay, let's let's see if what's happening if we move to preferred hybrid scheduling, and that is not like 2 days or 3 days. There's often like you know. Monday early morning. I'd like to work remote and like a Wednesday afternoon, I'd like to work remote. So, moving away from this like 2 days or 3 days, because it doesn't. That doesn't say anything. It doesn't say.
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Danny Gluch: It doesn't.
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Angelique Slob: That's it.
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Angelique Slob: Like, I want that conversation off the table and a real conversation. What do we want? Comes to flexibility and collaboration, because that is actually hybrid. That is about flexibility and collaboration.
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Angelique Slob: What do we want as an organization? What fits our strategic goals? Then we look into the data from all our employees. And we make that connection to, you know. And that is what the platform is doing. That shows you all those gaps and identifies trends and risks. And then, if you are an Hr director or workplace, lead, or like even CEO, who doesn't necessarily agree with with what's happening in the
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Angelique Slob: in in a return to office push, you can actually say, let's look at the data and.
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Danny Gluch: Take it.
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Angelique Slob: Decision. Wow! We can see that we give our Mps
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Angelique Slob: 24 HA year back if we move to their preferred schedules. We also reduce our carbon footprint with so many kilograms. And if we actually look and we see that they do 60% of their in-office activities are solo activities.
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Angelique Slob: So where is the argument that you know we need to be in the office more because for our collaboration, because we are only like the current situation is that
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Angelique Slob: that our employees are only collaborating for 30% of their time in office.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Angelique Slob: It's I love that. Then it's just, you know, it's almost becoming a no brainer. And even, you know, because it's more than you know you just don't fly blind on the data, either. But at least you have like a base that you can see. And you can start making changes and do small simulations in the in the platform as well. And that means like, and if you, if you really understand their data.
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Angelique Slob: using that as a people, analytics, tool or workplace analytics tool.
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Angelique Slob: you can right size your real estate with. It's 1 of the reasons that people are like in the office
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Angelique Slob: nickel and justify real estate cost.
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Cacha Dora: Yep.
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Danny Gluch: That's an elephant in the org.
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Cacha Dora: That is the complete. I know when Mary was talking about it earlier, I was like, don't talk about it because it's gonna derail the conversation right now.
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Marion: Especially when they're dragging them back. And there's not enough seats. That's the.
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Cacha Dora: But they've signed a. They've signed a 15 year lease, so.
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Marion: You know.
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Cacha Dora: Get back.
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Danny Gluch: I love that right sizing.
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Danny Gluch: Oh, and that's really the important point. It's right sizing. It's not like
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Danny Gluch: everyone, just because everyone or you know, we need this much space because it looks really good. It's about having.
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Cacha Dora: Earrings.
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Danny Gluch: Space for the people.
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Angelique Slob: And it's and it's perfectly fine to offer an office and beautiful office facilities where people can do their best work. There is like literally nothing wrong, like I applaud that. That is also what you you know not. It's not for every company some companies will be fully remote, but most companies want to offer that.
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Angelique Slob: and they want to offer the space where you can actually come and collaborate, but also maybe have your focus time. But you need to understand that you cater that office space for a very diverse workforce. You need to understand. And it's not about right sizing the square meters or square feet, as you you guys say.
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Angelique Slob: I don't, really. I don't have a clue what the square feet is, but it but it's it's quite interesting to see that it's not only about that, like. If you ask people to come back to the office, and you have a very like, you know, very workforce with a lot of introverted
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Angelique Slob: and you offer them an open office space that is not going to work. And it's not gonna increase the productivity. So you need to capture those kind of data as well like we want to understand the personalities and what kind of tasks so, and then add that into an office design, and that is also including like, like, how? What are the levels of visual privacy? What are the levels of acoustic isolation
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Angelique Slob: like a solo meeting room, for example, or so solo work room.
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Angelique Slob: How many collaborative spaces do you want? And you can just, you know, you have a lot of discretion as a leadership team to work with that data and to to define your your ultimate design. But to be honest, an office is broken if it's not efficient, and then it's not effective.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. Hmm.
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Angelique Slob: Too little or too much space. It's not it's not efficient. And if you have the wrong space for the activities and personalities and needs. Then it's not not effective.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I love that. And I wanted to go back because I think this might be a new sort of concept, as far as what data people are getting you. You've brought up the activities. People are doing solo group different types of work. And you also brought up personalities. And I think that's so fascinating as you know, getting an understanding of
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Danny Gluch: who makes up your organization like, what are the personalities that make up your organization? And what are the activities that these different personalities are doing? And how can we use that data to make
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Danny Gluch: business decisions on our office on return to work? What are some of the other
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Danny Gluch: categories or decisions that leaders can be making when they're really understanding the preferences, personalities and activities that people are that make up their organization.
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Angelique Slob: Yeah, I think in the in the what I like in if you looked from a strategic Hr perspective,
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Angelique Slob: you want to have breakdowns in in all kinds of demographics.
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Angelique Slob: So, for example, you want to understand what the difference between women and men in your organization, and how they experience. So it's a well-known fact that I didn't know. But in the industry that women have a cognitive disadvantage. If the office is too cold
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Angelique Slob: and it's significant difference. So it means that in tech companies like you know, women are underperforming compared to men, and the difference is about 2 degrees 2.2 degrees. Celsius, translated to Fahrenheit.
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Danny Gluch: No one can do that.
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Angelique Slob: No, I've been there like.
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Cacha Dora: That's not what Google was made for. It's fine, but no, that makes, I mean, especially in tech spaces, especially cause.
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Angelique Slob: Sweet.
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Cacha Dora: You tend to run colder in areas where you're running more equipment because you need to.
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Cacha Dora: And that's just that's almost like the logistics of it. But what what I've what I'm curious about is what
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Cacha Dora: when? Because you've mentioned, as Danny said, right? You've mentioned personalities quite a few times, is it?
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Cacha Dora: I know that there's different personality assessments, but I don't. I'm assuming that's not what we're talking about. We're not talking about personality like Mbti Disk or or any of that kind of stuff so
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Cacha Dora: pairing the personality with the activity, what kind of personality traits? Should our Hr leaders like? What does that look like?
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Angelique Slob: Well, in what we use in workplace is the the big 5 personality types. And also you.
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Angelique Slob: And it's it's for now self reporting. So it means we. We ask a few questions, but it's not the full assessment, because, you know, it's it's we we have, we make it. We capture this information for what? Why, we need it.
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Angelique Slob: But yeah, it has to do with, you know, being extrovert or introverted and and
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Angelique Slob: there is a lot of science how to translate into workplace design, that is, all is based on 30 years of science from various scientific research.
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Angelique Slob: Technology, and I think also what I wanted to say when it comes to. It's not just about personalities. I think generations and what they need. So I I really, I we can create kind of personas. So as we know that certain professions certain roles often are a certain type of person.
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Angelique Slob: and you can use the colors, or you can use those kind of personalities. So, for example, a tech company that I spoke to that. They used to hiring software developers, especially till like not so long ago. But now with AI, they are looking to hire Phd people, mathematics and data scientists. That is a different profile.
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Angelique Slob: So you you want to look at. And when you start to understand those personas and what they need not only in terms of their, you know the acoustic isolation for their solo task, but also in their preferred working times. In their remote working preferences. You can capture all that data, and you can connect it. And you can start. What I'm really excited about is the opportunity to become more predictive in analysis.
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Angelique Slob: So using the data as as predicting organizational developments. And kasha, I'm sure you agree with that.
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Angelique Slob: It's
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Angelique Slob: that is a different kind of game, and then then you'll be having a conversation with leadership teams, and I'm sure that they're going to start taking the data seriously.
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Danny Gluch: No.
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Marion: Hmm, hmm.
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Danny Gluch: You were talking earlier about how the data. And I think one of the reasons why we we love data is that it's
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Danny Gluch: it almost seems magic sometimes where you get these like like actual facts that were so surprising and are so counter to our assumptions.
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Danny Gluch: But I think that's where some of the tension comes from is that leaders are so used to verifying, like validating their assumptions and leading on those instincts and going based on past experiences, and you know how they used to do it. You know you were talking about the oh, well, I used to ride a horse, or this is how I learned, you know, to do the job.
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Danny Gluch: How can leaders overcome
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Danny Gluch: this? These strong assumptions, these these instincts that have led them to great success? And then being confronted with data that is contrary to these assumptions. What are some ways that leaders can.
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Danny Gluch: I don't know, swallow their pride, or or actually listen to these, you know, enlightening data points about
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Danny Gluch: be open to it. Yeah, be
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Danny Gluch: open to it, I think, is a good word. Thank you.
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Marion: Move, move themselves out the way, basically.
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Angelique Slob: Yeah, I.
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Cacha Dora: Excellent.
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Angelique Slob: Let's try to be polite.
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Marion: I'm not.
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Angelique Slob: As a consultant, you know, and before I had access to this kind of data, I also had to. You know, I had to rely heavily on my consulting skills and change management skills.
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Angelique Slob: The 2 things I've like, sometimes I ask leaders like, just, you know, I start making conversation. And I'm asking like, so do you have children? And they were like, Yeah, we have children like, How old are they like, oh, 1012, 15. And you would ask them. So you know. So in 6 years from now, or 10 years from now, when they start to to their 1st job, what kind of organization. Would you like them to start working in?
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Angelique Slob: And that's a good question to.
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Angelique Slob: Leader. So 1st of all, I also want to say, you know, we have to respect leaders from where they are and where they come from, and it's should always.
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Cacha Dora: Insane.
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Angelique Slob: I don't like to say, Oh, these are dinosaurs, or they don't get it. It's
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Angelique Slob: it's not about that. It is about guiding people because they're doing a job, and they're doing it really well. And in a way they have, they have a blind spot because of that's doing their job in their level.
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Angelique Slob: So open up them to that blind spot is what it's about. So you can do that, for example, in that really emotional personal level.
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Angelique Slob: And then, if you can open this conversation and ask ask them like, How would you want this organization to be psychological safety? Marion is like a very good one as well. Of course they want an organization where their children feel trusted and be treated as adults.
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Angelique Slob: and think. One of the other thing is is to encourage them to, to not make all the decisions themselves. As you say, Marion.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Angelique Slob: Just say to them like, ask younger people.
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Angelique Slob: how would they? How would they leave? What would they want, and what would they want to see. And then again, you can support it with a little bit of data and say, Look, this is your generation. And we have, that is like currently 10% of the workforce, and in the next 3 to 5 years that will even diminish even more. And the percent
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Angelique Slob: course Gen. Z. Gen. Alpha is growing. And for us, you know, for you to prepare this organization.
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Angelique Slob: you. It's basically your job as a leader to leave the conversation, to leave that organization ready for the future for the next leader.
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Angelique Slob: so helping them also into that kind of more future focused mindsets will help them. And
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Angelique Slob: in that way you give them also kind of
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Angelique Slob: way out. You have to give a you have to give them a way out that they can leave with their head up high and.
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Angelique Slob: Because, especially, you know I live in. I live in Brazil. I know men.
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Angelique Slob: and of course it's not just men, of course, but it's like the kind of masculine energy that you're working with. And you want to to open up certain things where you want to to create
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Angelique Slob: that safe space where you can talk about change, and especially if you have the data that is not always supporting their belief system.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, move off.
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Danny Gluch: So.
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Marion: I'm
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Marion: I'm just giggling at the masculine energy comment. Because I'm just thinking, yeah, Mark Zuckerberg says we need more of that. So. But I really love how you shape that conversation with leaders, because you're right. Sometimes they go so far down a path. It's very difficult to U-turn without losing face laid in different cultures to that where face saving is highly important, so it can be even more difficult.
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Cacha Dora: Bye.
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Marion: I think that there's there's also other factors here that are really interesting. I love the point about them being the guardians, the gatekeepers of the organization and and how you know they're leaving that they're leaving that legacy for someone else to come on and and pick up and run with it.
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Marion: But what I see right now in many organizations is like
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Marion: the absolute opposite of that. I'm seeing very short term decision making.
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Marion: We're I mean, we saw it through Covid. Obviously, we all had to make short term decisions during Covid, right? Because, you know, it was weird. But then we started to make.
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Marion: we continue to make short term decisions. And and I'm seeing particularly with all of the layoffs that we've been seeing happening around us.
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Marion: a continuation of that we over hire we we have a reduction in force. We we then start to hire again, and then we over hire, and then we have a reduction in force, and they're coming in very short cycles, particularly in tech. And in those types of industries.
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Marion: How do we get that mindset shift for leaders when they're stuck in this continual hamster wheel of short term, short term, short term.
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Marion: But to help them develop a longitudinal view
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Marion: that really focuses on the the long term sustained, sustained employee experience.
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Marion: Because that's what's really getting crushed in all of this short term decision making? Does that make sense.
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Angelique Slob: Absolutely. Yeah, no. That's that's that's
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Angelique Slob: yeah. Employer brands, for example, but also like the whole costs of it. The impact on on stakeholders, as in, for example, and stakeholders, I mean employees and also their families, and also all kinds of suppliers.
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Angelique Slob: Yeah, it's of course, driven by it's driven by shareholder value. Often.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Angelique Slob: When I was in in, like, I was an Hr consultant and I would be working with leadership teams. And
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Angelique Slob: you would just say, okay, let's identify where you want to stand with your organization in 3 years and and take that kind of cycle about developing your staff and also start hiring for the right skills for the future. There's often a reluctance push back to change from Ceos and Cfos that we just say.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Angelique Slob: Well, you know, are they actually good? Because, you know, the shareholders will be happy because the financial results will be okay.
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Angelique Slob: So we're not going to change. And and
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Angelique Slob: I, my 1st role was with Kpmg consulting that time. That's like the advisory of Kpmg.
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Angelique Slob: And they had that like longer, literally that longer horizon, also because of their highly competitive talent market for campus.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Angelique Slob: So they were like, really looking in those the conductible changes of 3 years, for example, like
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Angelique Slob: if you start to lay off people now. Even then we would just accelerate recruitment, campus recruitment or communication, because, you know, like 3 years from now, we will be hiring again. So we really want to make sure.
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Angelique Slob: And I learned a lot from that from that. That was my 1st
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Angelique Slob: real job where I learned a lot from Hr. And and organizational development and strategy and.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Angelique Slob: Interesting to see
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Angelique Slob: how that worked, but then also disappointing to see in other organizations how that often is not the case.
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Cacha Dora: Hmm.
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Angelique Slob: And I think, it's it's also like
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Angelique Slob: they're humans, right? So there is a lot on the plate. They have a lot of pressure. And then it's like short term. Short term decisions are probably just kind of
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Angelique Slob: their own psychological own safety, probably. And Marion.
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Danny Gluch: That's cool.
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Angelique Slob: That as well, and I think one of the things that I would recommend companies is to
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Angelique Slob: put a really good advisory board in place as well.
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Angelique Slob: and that's and I always say for joke that you need someone with pink hair in your advisory.
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Marion: That's a time.
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Angelique Slob: A symbol symbolic of like, you know, don't put the same traditional people, but.
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Marion: Yeah. 10 white males. Yeah.
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Marion: And.
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Angelique Slob: That's that you get people like that come from, for example, like Danny, a philosophical background, or people that have bring something different to the table. And that's.
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Cacha Dora: Typically can can maybe guide an organization to a more long term? Vision, right?
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Cacha Dora: That silo of thought versus the diversity of thought right, being able to see those corners that others everyone's in an echo chamber. You can't see around.
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Marion: No.
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Angelique Slob: Data might help. I don't know about the trend of all the hiring and and then firing again. That is a more Us. Phenomenon that's.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Angelique Slob: Labor regulations. We don't really see that in Europe.
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Angelique Slob: but I think also having more data around what you actually need and and like how you want to grow and make sure to to make that an efficient process
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Angelique Slob: cost.
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Marion: Yes.
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Angelique Slob: Process.
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Angelique Slob: Oh, it's like very, very expensive.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Marion: I just want to pick out one thing that you said, because it really struck a chord with me. And it's something that I've been thinking a lot about recently.
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Marion: C-suite jobs are very lonely jobs.
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Cacha Dora: Hmm.
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Marion: More often than not.
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Marion: And you know, I think it's very easy to verify. You know.
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Marion: Ceos, Cfos ctos Cpos whatever, because of sometimes the types of decisions that they have to make
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Marion: and how they got to having to make those decisions. That's a whole other conversation. Because, Danny, I know we all have strong feelings about, you know, Ceos being held accountable for for things like layoffs. And and I agree with that. But sometimes it's unavoidable right? Sometimes it's just the nature of the beast, and that's it.
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Marion: And I think that that
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Marion: having empathy being able to demonstrate empathy towards leaders when they're in these types of situations is something that we should be mindful of.
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Marion: Sometimes these decisions are through
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Marion: sheer shareholder pressure, and they might internally want to do X,
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Marion: but they're being pressured to do why, and I think also, as you become more mature in your career, I know for me, and we've talked about this many times. Your values get louder and louder and louder.
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Cacha Dora: And I think.
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Marion: Sometimes. That's where it can cause a huge amount of personal conflict.
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Cacha Dora: And dissonance. Yeah.
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Marion: Yeah, because you're really being backed into a corner. And it's not. It doesn't sit well with your values and some people
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Marion: and settle for that. I'm certainly one of those people. I think you you all know that. But other people can. Right? So it's a really interesting.
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Marion: you know, place to observe from an an I/O perspective but also just a real phenomena that I'm seeing all around me right now.
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Angelique Slob: And even that that makes me. I thank you for mentioning this specifically, Marion and I really appreciate that. And I fully agree.
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Angelique Slob: And I was just thinking when you finish that maybe offering more data can also help help a CEO.
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Marion: Yes.
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Angelique Slob: Specific position.
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Angelique Slob: To maybe have a different kind of conversation with with their shareholders or aligning the stakeholders in their management team. Better.
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Angelique Slob: also also explaining why certain decisions are being made.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Angelique Slob: As you say sometimes it's inevitable and and also very necessary. And and sometimes it's just the best thing for the overall organization to do. There, you know, if you can communicate that, and you can explain in a transparent way, like in, especially if you have data sets to
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Angelique Slob: support those kind of decisions, helpful in very different ways.
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Danny Gluch: Know something that you were saying about, you know, having the data to explain your decisions, you know, to explain and justify long term decision making.
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Danny Gluch: I think that really highlights, I think one of our problems is that we talk about shareholders as if they are all aligned on maximizing the share price at any given moment.
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Danny Gluch: And like, that's just. It's been proven like Costco has proven that it's like not the case that they, you know their shareholders were, were offered something to to go along with, like a lot of what is happening in America right now, and the shareholders were like, no, we're not going to do that. We still value diversity.
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Danny Gluch: And we think you know, long term decisions kind of a thing. And we often group shareholders. And and you know, stock price into one thing and use that to justify short term decisions. And I think data can really show that, like long term, health of the value of the company of our shareholders. Interest is actually this. And here's the data to prove it.
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Marion: You. I'm the leader. I'm the CEO. Trust me, here's the data. This is good for your long term.
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Danny Gluch: Shareholder value, and like.
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Danny Gluch: You can't do that without data. You really can't. And you're forced into making short-term decisions and maximizing for this quarter.
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Cacha Dora: And I think that goes back to what we were talking about, the very beginning of the conversation, where people in a state of change if they, the people, don't like to be uncomfortable.
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Cacha Dora: And there's if you can mitigate that with data, then you're like, Hey, we'll experience some momentary discomfort. But now you have, we've talked a lot on our podcast. About how people understanding the why behind something can be really transformative. Imagine being able to explain the why. But with data. So, Marion, going back to your point, right? It's not Fluff anymore.
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Cacha Dora: Like you can give it a a pretty infographic. But now you actually have data, and you can cite things, and it looks good and feels good well, better than what it could look like. Right.
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Angelique Slob: And one of the things that also I've learned in in all the years is that if you take something away from from people, and you do not put anything in place, they will tend to fall back to their old.
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Angelique Slob: the old ways. So if you take away command and control, but you do not put something else in place
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Angelique Slob: for example, to measure performance or to manage someone, they will most likely fall back into commence and control behaviors, and I think we can see that if we translate it, what we see in the return to office discussions, what we, what we, what we mainly see is that
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Angelique Slob: these are companies that have been struggling in with their overall performance, and there is nothing else in place to.
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Angelique Slob: So what you do so maybe you know. Okay, let's go back to the office. And then, you know, at least, we know it's not that. It's not, you know, the fact that we work hybrid.
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Angelique Slob: So also there again, you know, with having a really good business case supported with data, you can, you can fill that gap with something else, and helping people to move away from
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Angelique Slob: all outdated ways into a more future, ready and to open-minded approach.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. Being being open-minded takes a lot.
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Danny Gluch: It really doesn't. And I think we touched on, you know, having a diversity in your advisory or board group not being just siloed.
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Danny Gluch: you know, as as the C-suite, it takes a lot to not
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Danny Gluch: not be closed off to the data, especially when it's, you know, telling you, when like the the most obvious interpretation is telling you to make a decision that's hard or uncomfortable, or it goes against your instincts or the way you you did it.
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Danny Gluch: I was just, you know, hoping to wrap up as as we're coming up on a another good long episode for our listeners. What are some of the the main takeaways that
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Danny Gluch: either
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Danny Gluch: Hr. Teams in, how they gather data, how they talk about data with their C-suite or for leaders, how they can be more open to the data. What's what's a final message you have out there, Angelique.
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Angelique Slob: What I what I'd like to see is that
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Angelique Slob: also we take away the silos and that piece that people from Hr. And facilities and workplace and
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Angelique Slob: different kind of functions, start sharing data and insights.
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Angelique Slob: and also be open to support each other, to find certain data.
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Angelique Slob: So, and especially for it's our data. It's our service and police service are not just meant to to tick the boxes in in when it comes to engagement or culture or leadership. But it's about an holistic and holistic approach
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Angelique Slob: connected to the strategic goals of the company.
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Angelique Slob: Yeah, I mean, that's that would be wonderful.
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Cacha Dora: Amen!
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Marion: Indeed, indeed.
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Danny Gluch: Well, thank you all for listening. Thank you so much for joining us, Angelique. Everyone. If you want to connect with her, you can find her Linkedin and links in the show notes. Thank you all for joining. Please leave a 5 star review like subscribe. Follow all of the things we'll see you next time.
