The Elephant in the Org

Burnout, Breakdown, and a Big F*ck You to the Corporate Cult with Deb Haas

The Fearless PX Season 2 Episode 18

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Deb Haas spent 24 years in corporate HR before getting laid off — and finally getting free. Now, she’s helping others reimagine work for the AI era with transparency, humor, and zero tolerance for business as usual.

In this episode:
– The psychological toll of layoffs
– Late-stage capitalism & the myth of the “dream job”
– Why Gen Z won’t play along
– What leaders keep getting wrong about flexibility & safety
– Fractional work, portfolio careers & the future of employment

Deb is the founder of The Unexamined Mind,  where she helps people unlearn toxic career scripts and build work that works for humans.

🔗 Connect with Deb on LinkedIn

📄 Full Show Notes: Read Here

🐘 Connect with Us:

🚀 Follow The Fearless PX on LinkedIn: The Fearless PX
📩 Got a hot take or a workplace horror story? Email Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlesspx.com
🎧 Catch every episode of The Elephant in the Org: All Episodes Here

🚀Your Hosts on Linkedin:

🐘Marion Anderson

🐘Danny Gluch

🐘Cacha Dora

💬 Like what you hear?
Subscribe, leave a ★★★★★ review, and help us bring more elephants into the light.

🎙️ About the Show

The Elephant in the Org drops new episodes every two weeks starting April 2024.
Get ready for even more fearless conversations about leadership, psychological safety, and the future of work.

🎵 Music & Production Credits

🎶 Opening and closing theme music by The Toros
🎙️ Produced by The Fearless PX
✂️ Edited by Marion Anderson

⚠️ Disclaimer

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests, and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations' official policy or position.

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Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the elephant in the org, everyone. I'm Danny Gluch, and I'm joined, as always, by my co-host, Cacha Dora


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Cacha Dora: Hello!


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Danny Gluch: And Marion Anderson.


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Marion: She's singing, Woo! Woo!


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Danny Gluch: Cacha's alive proof of life.


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Cacha Dora: I am here.


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Marion: Hi.


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Cacha Dora: Yeah, much to all of your chagrin.


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Marion: Today.


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Danny Gluch: Today's elephant in the org is that it's the end of the workforce as we know it. I really can. We pay for a sound clip from rem. That would be nice.


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Cacha Dora: Too many things.


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Danny Gluch: As we know it.


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Danny Gluch: and as you just heard, welcome, Deb Haas, everyone who's going to be our special guest to talk us through what everyone is missing about this shift in the workforce. Deb. Introduce yourself.


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Deb Haas: Hi! 1st of all, it is such an honor to be here. You have already heard me go on about how honored I am to be on this podcast Deb Haas, the founder of the unexamined mind. If you ask me what it is, I sell, or what it is that I do, I still have no idea. All I know is that I cannot go back to corporate world where I was. For 24 years I work for a company called Accenture, 700,000 employees. If that gives you any idea. That was my entire world.


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Deb Haas: And then I was. You know, I had a burnout was in partial hospitalization for depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation. The day I came back from that was the day I was informed that I was going to be laid off 6 months later.


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Deb Haas: laid off, thrust into the workforce, out into the world, as it were, and realized really quickly that nowhere was I going to find a job doing what I had been doing, or even anything close to what I had been doing.


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Deb Haas: And I realized that I really didn't want to go back to corporate world. And so I started a business, and taking the advice of a really awesome business coach, he said, you know what, Deb. You could be doing more. Hr, but then you'll find yourself in the same place in a year and a half, where you burn out, except this time you're going to be the one responsible for finding your clients and coming up with money. And I was like, Wow, that sounds really hellish. So he's like you need to find something that you love doing, and then make that your business. So that's what I'm kind of figuring out now. It's going to be somewhere in the area of


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Deb Haas: making work and life fun and enjoyable and bringing joy back to, you know, work like work has become this dirty word, literally a 4 letter word. And I'm like, you know, what it doesn't have to be that I'm living proof. The last couple of months every week for me is just fun and joyful, and and not because I'm bringing money because I'm not. It's just that I get to meet these amazing human beings that are doing these incredible things. And it's this is what I want my life to be like. So


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Deb Haas: figuring out. How can I do that and have people pay me to do it.


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Deb Haas: Wow!


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Marion: We. We love that. And you came into our orbit just through mutual contacts and projects that we've been working on around disability more to come on that listeners. But, there needs to be more joy in our profession, especially right now. It's.


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Cacha Dora: Absolutely.


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Marion: Fucking rough out there like.


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Deb Haas: It is grim, it is the walking it is. It's the.


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Marion: Yeah.


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Deb Haas: And then almost every corporation that you go to, and people are putting on this facade of trying to keep up. Because, of course, you know, the industrial revolution, or the you know, the age of the industry, industrial age, or whatever it's called, was all based on competition, you know, based on hierarchy based on, you know.


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Deb Haas: having to put on this good face, and they're still operating in that, even though we're seeing it crumble in front of our eyes, you know, with what's going on in corporations, and it's all based on fear. You know we're always afraid of what if I say this thing? Will I get in trouble? Will there be repercussions for that? And how can you have joy and fun on top of fear? It just doesn't work. Nobody's acknowledging the fear.


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Cacha Dora: Yeah. And we're we're even seeing what like the Gallup report that just came out on like shockingly, engagement is down again like.


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Deb Haas: No no right.


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Cacha Dora: You know.


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Cacha Dora: I think that's the reaction I think a lot of people had, though Deb, like truthfully, is just like, you know, this. This shouldn't be. If this is shocking, you're not paying attention.


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Deb Haas: That's it. Exactly anyone who's doing that. Oh, I'm so shocked by this is someone who is like literally has their head up their ass. I'm sorry, but that is the reality. They are not aware of what's going on in the world. I mean, they're not. They're they're completely. And either they're in an ivory tower somewhere off, you know, on some mountain somewhere, or they literally are really, really intent on hiding their head in the sand. And if you if you were surprised by that, that's literally what I think about you. Oh, God! That sounds so bad!


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Danny Gluch: Listeners.


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Danny Gluch: You know. You know what I think. I actually think that Ceos and and whatever people who are in charge of engagement are are waiting for engagement to hit Rock bottom and then engagement's gonna go to the Betty Ford clinic and come back all better. That's what I think is gonna happen.


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Marion: Danny, you're such an eternal optimist. That's why we love you.


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Deb Haas: We adore, that.


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Marion: Well, we're.


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Danny Gluch: So


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Danny Gluch: we've talked a lot, and I think a lot of articles and stuff are about the future of work. What work is going to look like, as far as remote hybrid. And there's been a lot of policies and shifts, and a lot of the talk about engagement specifically is about, oh, how is work going to look? And how is work going to engage.


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Danny Gluch: And then talking with with you, Deb.


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Danny Gluch: I think the the question becomes, what does employment look like? Not not as when you are working. But if you're working, or is it


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Danny Gluch: what have you seen? What do you think's coming down the line.


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Deb Haas: Well, the 1st thing I noticed was that everyone was talking about the future of work, and when you look at the future of work. It is focused on once again, the thing that this company or that this country cares about the most is corporations and capitalism. And you know, companies being able to, you know, produce more and make people buy more and whatever. And it's totally focused on the companies. And it's not focused on the human beings that are actually doing the work.


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Deb Haas: So it literally was me sitting down with Chatty G. Because that's how most of my days go these days is, you know, sitting down with AI and just throwing stuff at it like spaghetti at a wall.


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Deb Haas: And I remember thinking, you know what. Let's flip this around. Everyone's worried about the future of work. Is anyone talking about the future of employment?


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Deb Haas: Because I'm sitting here as a Gen. X. Person


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Deb Haas: who, you know, followed the rules. I went to school, got my degree, got my, you know, stayed with the company for 20 some frickin years.


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Deb Haas: and this is what I get. I'm having to dig into my 401 K. In order to keep things going. I can't seem to land a job to save my life.


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Deb Haas: and I was looking at all these other Gen. Xers that are like in the same place. And then there's the younger generation that is just coming out of college. They got their whole life in front of them, and they're stuck in this as well. So we're getting it from both ends of the spectrum, you know, and you're seeing it in the businesses. And I was like, you know what. There's something going on with employment. And that's when I started to see, hey? You know, we've got a lot of these executives that aren't finding another job. And they're like, you know, what I still need to pay my bills.


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Deb Haas: I still need to take care of my kids and my family. I'm going to go off on my own.


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Deb Haas: and you're seeing more and more of this. You're seeing more of the Freelancing. You're seeing more of the fractional like. That's a word that a year or 2 ago most people had never heard of. And now everyone's like fractional. It's like, Oh, and I'm like, you know, it's always been there. It's just there weren't as many people that were actively seeking it because they were able to find that corporate job. But the corporate job is going away. It's dying.


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Deb Haas: and whether, when that happens, I don't know, like I have this vision in the future, because, like I said, we're leaving the Industrial age heading into the AI age. And of course, in my vision, because I live in a weird land, it's going to be very different. It's going to be very much based. It's going to be more human than it's been. Let's put it that way because, believe it or not, AI is going to force us to be more human.


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Deb Haas: And it's going to be


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Deb Haas: jobs, the traditional job. There's going to be fewer people holding a traditional job than ever before, and there are going to be more people doing portfolio careers like at accenture. I had this one skill set that is a very niche skill set. I had no idea, when I was learning it, that it was that niche


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Deb Haas: and I can't find a company. That's because there's only like 6 or 7 companies in the world that actually do what it is that I'm an expert in


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Deb Haas: so. But I have all these other skills that they never paid me for. But there's things that I love doing like I love writing, and I love talking and singing and all these other things. And it's like, you know, what? Why don't I create this portfolio type of career where I use these different skills that I have. And I'll go to these different people that will pay me for those specific skills. And I'll create a living out of that.


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Deb Haas: And it's it's taken a real big shift, you know, a shift in looking at the world. And that's what I'm concerned about is I'm seeing a lot of people that are still.


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Deb Haas: you know, 6 months a year, 18 months unemployed, and they're still hanging on, hoping for that, you know, perfect job or dream job which honestly, y'all, is anything a dream job, I mean. Come on. And I really really want people to like, wake up and see that employment is altering in front of our eyes whether we realize it or not.


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Deb Haas: I hope that Spiel was okay, like, did I go too long? Did I go? Oh, no.


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Cacha Dora: No, I I really appreciate the call out to the social conditioning that so many of us have when it comes to work career employment, because I think


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Cacha Dora: I think a lot of it is unconscious for a huge majority of the population. Right? Social conditioning isn't something that you typically, I think, for a lot of people are very aware of, and for those that are, then they can kind of crack that code a little bit and look around and see a whole picture. But social conditioning is, is incredibly in the subconscious.


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Deb Haas: The context that we live in like a fish in a bowl, right is swimming in water and water is the context in which it lives. But it doesn't realize that water is there. It's just what it lives in. And our social conditioning about. How does work work? How do you? How does employment work? It's just so ingrained. And honestly, I will admit freely. I came to a little bit later, but I am a total feminist.


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Deb Haas: and there's a lot of the patriarchy that's been built into the industrial age and part of the way that I'm seeing. The future is like, you know what we're going to get rid of some of this patriarchal structures that are really not serving anyone. They're very competitive, very much in the world of scarcity.


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Deb Haas: and that's not the world I live in now the world I live in world of abundance. Which means that I'm finding these incredible communities of amazing human beings who are like. You know what we can do good and make money like for some time in the world. We decided that if you wanted to do good. You couldn't make money like that was some sort of like dichotomy that we decided on. And why is that?


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Deb Haas: Why? Why did we decide? That? Is that really the way it is, or.


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Deb Haas: You know, we're changing it up. We're going from the industrial age to the AI age. A lot of things are getting topsy turvy. What could we build? That would be better.


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Marion: Yeah, you know, it's really interesting that you're talking about that we had a guest on a few weeks ago. Angelique Slob. She's a future of work expert. She's yeah. Angelique's amazing. And we talked about this. And she said something which


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Marion: really is quite obvious, but actually blew me and Danny away in particular, I think, because she talked about how


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Marion: you know we're so stuck in the industrial age, and you know work has been crafted around. You know the Industrial Revolution, the days of Ford and and all the others


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Marion: can't see past it like we cannot. Aha! And and you know we still have the mentality that


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Marion: our company, our employer, owns our ass for 9 HA day.


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Deb Haas: Control. It's all built on control. That was the way that they were able.


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Deb Haas: you know. And so a lot of us as human beings. We just go through the motions, and we go through most of our days kind of unconscious, just trying to get by and survive.


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Deb Haas: And what will be possible when people actually wake up to like? What is it that matters to me what lights me up like? What gives me energy, that when I engage in it. I'm like, yeah. And then it's not work.


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Deb Haas: It's not work. If it gives you energy. Work to me has become synonymous with Oh, my God, I gotta do it to make money, you know.


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Marion: Yeah.


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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I mean, I enjoy effort and labor and seeing the product of of work. And I think most people do. But but I totally agree with you, and I wanted to go back to your analogy of the fish in the fishbowl and the water. And you know, throughout periods of history. We've had revolutions in, how work was done and how economies were structured, and when there was that big shift it was always followed directly by a


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Danny Gluch: big investment in the arts because people couldn't do what they used to do. So now they were painting, and they were making music. And we saw that, you know, in the 18 hundreds we saw it in the early 19 hundreds. We saw it in like the 19 fifties as well, and


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Danny Gluch: part of me wonders. And and one of your big talking points is about the generations and how they're going to handle this. I already see a bunch of 20 year olds who are like.


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Danny Gluch: I can't find that job that I studied and got my degree in. I'm going to stream my favorite video game and hope people show up and watch, and some of them, or they're going to make youtubes that are funny. You know. One of my friends was, you know, he wanted to be a comedian, and he was doing all of his things and tried really hard. Got his Mba in case that didn't work out.


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Danny Gluch: But he he does Youtube content content, and has, you know, a big following on social media. I don't follow him because I'm not on social media, but other people do. And he's very funny.


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Danny Gluch: and people are are more creative, and they're doing that. And and I I wonder and I kind of fear if the the older generation is so stuck in the water that they don't see that they need to get out and start crawling. And


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Danny Gluch: and it's gonna be a little rough for them. What do you think like? How? How can people get to where you are? Where you're like? Oh, wow! I have to adapt.


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Deb Haas: It. Really it?


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Deb Haas: It's it's such a great question, Danny, because what we're looking at right now is that in the in the workforce right now we have 5 generations, y'all 5 generations of people in the workforce.


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Deb Haas: People are living longer than ever before. We have all these outdated industrial age ideas of when you hit 55, you're going to retire. And then, you know, blah, blah, yeah, hell, no, that ain't going to be happening, at least for me and my generation. I'm going to be working till I'm 70 or 80. And there was this realization when that hit, it was like, Okay, I have to find a job. I only have this amount of money in my 401 KI got to figure out, what do we do? I could either go back


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Deb Haas: to doing what I was doing, slaving away, maybe take a job at less money than I was making, which is what we're seeing. A lot of people are underemployed now, they're not like employed up to what their you know what their skill level is. And


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Deb Haas: it really comes down to. I'm


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Deb Haas: actually going to be starting a podcast. With a friend of mine named Molly. She's a millennial. I'm a Gen. Xer. I've always been young for my age all. I don't know if it's the Adhd or what it is, but I've always hung out with people that were younger than me, so I've always been more into, you know.


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Deb Haas: finding out where, where, how things are going, wanting to find out what the latest trend is, that whatever I think for a lot of Gen. Xers. And for people that are older than that, the boomers, and even the silent generation that are still in the workforce. And they and they want to be, you know, they want to contribute. I think it's really getting rid of a lot of your getting out of your head and getting out of like anything where you're complaining, where you find yourself.


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Deb Haas: It's this awareness. It's being aware of yourself and being aware of how you're behaving at any given moment. And when you find yourself saying the thing, all this generation, or all the kids these days like, be aware that you're doing that in that moment, because in that moment you have something that is significant for humans, and you have choice.


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Deb Haas: And in that moment you can choose. You can choose to continue down that complaint, and where it leads you to, which is the same thing that you've always done, which what do we know about insanity doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.


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Deb Haas: Or you can take that moment of awareness, and I have a choice.


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Deb Haas: I could choose something. Well, why don't I actually find out about what this this Gen. Z. Person is saying? Or why don't I find out about this? And we're going to have to relearn the the lifelong learner.


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Deb Haas: We got to take that on on a completely different level. Y'all we got to get past our fear of what AI is because there's so many people are like that. They think it's going to be like the Terminator, or that it's sentient, or that it's, you know, it's a mix of what we're seeing in sci-fi, and a mix of what the fear, the scarcity, that we saw, the way that companies reacted to it. They read that 1st half of the sentence. It's going to eliminate this many jobs. And they all went. That's it. Let's cut all these people.


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Deb Haas: you know, and not looking at the second half of the sentence which was. And it's going to create 97 million jobs like they. It's like they all kind of


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Deb Haas: willfully ignored that whole second half of it, and jumped right into the fear and the scarcity. So we got to get past the fear and get into curiosity, and that's what I guess what it all comes down to be curious.


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Marion: We do a hundred percent. But here's the one thing that I would say that I'm seeing right now is that the job losses are happening without the 97% increase.


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Marion: You, said John.


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Marion: Right? Because, you know, we're still in the very early stages of this. You know, people trust tech thing. And


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Marion: there's a lot of economic factors. There's a lot of external factors going on, you know, tariffs. Anyone. That's just totally screwed everything around. So like there's so many dynamics.


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Marion: Economically, politically, sociologically. But then you add, in the technological like, it's, it's wild. So I think that


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Marion: I I think that we're in for a really bumpy time.


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Deb Haas: Are.


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Marion: And.


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Cacha Dora: So.


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Deb Haas: We're in the middle anytime. You look at any big change. We always know about the beginning of it, and we know about the end of it. But we don't really know about what actually happens in the middle of it, right? Unless we're looking at writing by authors, or, you know, by music that gets, you know, created. That's kind of like, we know, because a lot of people don't talk about it because we're all like in the space of like


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Deb Haas: Hunker down. Be alone, you know, or just like Hunker down until you can survive it. And and my thing is like, get like, get rid of that impulse and go look for your community like you're gonna have to fight against every instinct in you that's telling you to hide out and not say, and blah blah and no find your community. Find the people because I have learned so much about starting a business, or even about the world of like I was in hr y'all, that's all I knew, and I'm starting a business like is that insanity, or what?


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Deb Haas: But what I didn't realize, and what I'm finding is that there are so many human beings out there that by nature are generous and believe in the whole world of of


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Deb Haas: scarcity and abundance, who believe in the world of abundance, and they're operating out of a world of abundance that I have learned so much just from my community and the different communities that I've fallen into. And the humans that I've interacted with, it's been amazing.


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Cacha Dora: One of the through lines. I love that I've heard both Deb from you and and from Marion was really about like this, like we're in like this really massive season of change in work, right? Like in our jobs in the sociopolitical field, our economics like, we're like this whole period of time that we're in like I'm just gonna call it like the Pandorama era, because I feel like that's kind of you know.


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Deb Haas: Really good name, actually.


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Cacha Dora: Yeah, it's not branded but


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Danny Gluch: Now.


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Cacha Dora: Yeah, because now, but yeah, but like, even if we were to kind of like, put our little Hr hats on, and we start thinking about change management and the change curve and blah blah and all that kind of stuff.


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Cacha Dora: There's a lot of truth to how and then like, and then layering back on that social conditioning that you're talking about. People are so naturally uncomfortable with changing the status quo that even with AI, I guarantee you like. Half of the people are looking to keep things the same. They'll add the tool on. But like they're not looking to change how work works. And the people who are looking to change how work works. Those are the people who are getting creative.


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Cacha Dora: who are looking into these other avenues, whether it's the fractional work that you were talking about. The community aspect. I know we see the word community popping up a lot more now. Which I personally love, because I don't like that's inherently inclusionary versus exclusionary in my own little opinion.


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Cacha Dora: you know, and it opens the door to a lot of things and we are in, I think, what also makes it really interesting just to kind of lean into the generational end of things. Right? We are seeing the boons of what the Internet


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Cacha Dora: does.


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Deb Haas: Yeah.


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Deb Haas: we haven't like, like, is it untapped? I mean like what like the Internet was like, what from the nineties or something like that like.


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Deb Haas: I can tell you exactly when it started, because I was there. I was in an office working, and I remember the 1st time I had Netscape. And I got this thing called the Internet. And I was like, Oh, what is this you mean? I can type and look for stuff. And the knowledge is right there. I don't have to go to a library and look through a card catalog. And oh, my God!


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Danny Gluch: Yeah, they used to deliver the Internet on Cds in the mail.


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Deb Haas: Yeah, yeah, I did. I remember Netflix I used to get. I remember when Netflix came out, and I was like, Oh, my God! I can watch all of Buffy, the vampire slayer from the beginning. Holy crap! And I can watch episode after episode after episode. I don't have to wait a whole week in between episodes. Oh, my God! It was mind blowing y'all absolutely.


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Marion: I couldn't.


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Deb Haas: It. And I, Kasha, I'm so glad you brought that up I am, and this might be why, I'm


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Deb Haas: able to like.


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Deb Haas: you know, the whole generational thing and see the other side. I've been an Internet person from the beginning. I was on classifieds 2,000, which was the very 1st dating site on the Internet, and it became Hotmail. I think if I remember correctly, I could be way wrong on that. So I've been Internet dating since the time when people would be like, Don't do that. You're, gonna you know. Serial killers are gonna come and get you. You know, my friend would be like you need to call me when you're going out on a date and tell me where you're going to be. And you know


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Deb Haas: which is so different now. It's amazing. And I was in second life for years. I was performing in second life as taunter. Goodnight. Back in 2,009 to 2015 or whatever. And I knew for a fact that you can create incredible relationships with human beings through a virtual format I've experienced. I met my husband through second life. I mean, we met online before we ever met in person.


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Deb Haas: I actually officiated a wedding for a friend of mine that I met back in 2,009, had never physically met him, had only met him in this second life or in virtual space, and I flew out to his home in Delaware and met him the day before. I officiated his wedding


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Deb Haas: to another woman that he met online. So it's you know, we there's some people who are like, oh, we can't ever have the relation, or we can't make these amazing relations. No, you have the future as much as the companies are trying to like the last gasp. Dying gasp of white supremacy is trying to make us come back to the office trying to rewind the office to 2011. That is not the future. The future is remote, and these false boundaries that we have created amount


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Deb Haas: people around gender around language, around culture. All of those are going to start to crumble. And we're going to see that remote is really. And the companies that are really successful are the ones looking at the future. They're the ones looking. They're the ones you were talking about, Kasha, who are like those ones that are. Or was it, Marion? I apologize. I don't remember who brought it up. But the ones that are looking at the future of work is how it's going to be. Those are the companies that in 10 years are going to be the big booming ones and the ones that are doubling down. On the return to the office.


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Marion: Yeah, it's it's crazy, like.


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Marion: yeah, you know. And and the thing is I, what you know through my my research, what's really obvious, it's not about remote. And it's not about hybrid actually.


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Deb Haas: It's not.


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Marion: It's about autonomy and flexibility and human need, and


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Marion: treating people as adults right? Like, it's all of those things. And this is where


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Marion: some companies are really struggling like it is bonkers. And it's like all of the things that the research tells us, all of the things that are really just obvious. Remember the thing that that you would learn when you were a kid. Treat. People treat people the way you wish to be treated yourself right


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Marion: like that just goes out the window.


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Deb Haas: Like. It's it's like this whole thing where it's like. No, we own you and you have to tell us what you're doing every minute of the day, and.


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Marion: You know.


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Deb Haas: Trust is gone. If there was a trust between us and between employers, and I think there was at some point it started to crumble when the pandemic I probably started before that. But when the pandemic hit the whole facade of like you need to physically show up in an office to do your job like how much that was. Bs just became very apparent, and how quickly companies were able to, you know, gather stuff together and get people working remotely


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Deb Haas: like that whole like thing of where you know you have to be in an office to do your job. You know you don't have to.


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Danny Gluch: Yeah, we prove that you don't have to.


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Deb Haas: You. We proved it.


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Danny Gluch: And it's really interesting, because there's the companies who are going to embrace the future of work. And I also think there's companies. And the 1st person who I ever heard talking about really embracing this future of employment was Marion


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Danny Gluch: was. Maybe we don't need a whole head, you know. You're going out. You're trying to achieve your goals. Maybe we don't need 2 heads for this. Maybe we only need, you know, a fractional 75% person or or a group of people who are going to fill that role for us? 75%. And I really do think. And and I'm wondering, Deb, Mary and Kasha, if you have any thoughts on.


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Danny Gluch: you know. Deb was talking about the individual characteristics of curiosity, and willing to dissent, and those things you know playfulness and and whatnot that'll really help individuals go forward in this future of employment. I wonder about the companies, though the Hr teams, the leadership teams who are making, you know, strategic people decisions. What's going to help them.


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Danny Gluch: you know, be open to and then actually good at identifying when to embrace this sort of future of employment where, like this person isn't our W. 2 employee for 40 HA week? They are this other thing that we're doing for a shorter period of time, or, you know, fractional like, what's gonna let companies do that? Well.


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Cacha Dora: Think sometimes it might come down to industry


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Cacha Dora: like truthfully, because there are some industries that I think live and die by having their W. 2 workforce and their contract workforce. And what if it's a contract work if it's using freelancers? And I don't think all industries operate like that. But when you do see an industry that does, and you've never been in that industry setting, it feels foreign like, truly. But I also think that there's a lot of substantive lessons to be learned


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Cacha Dora: from having almost like a hybrid work model, but not hybrid in the way way that you would think of it right like like, from a location, perspective and proximity, but more from an


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Cacha Dora: like. How you're truly contracted in with the employer cause. I think that there could be


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Cacha Dora: Deb to your point, a generational trend, or just a preferential trend even of people wanting to have more autonomy. Marion, like what you're talking about, and more freedom of choice of. I'd rather have 3 employers that I spend my time with spread out instead of one employer, that I spend my time out with.


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Deb Haas: This is where Gen. Z. Is pushing the envelope, and I love them for it. I will praise Gen. Z. To the skies, because they're like, you know what they they want, meaning in their work. They want to be doing something with purpose. They have a tied to like.


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Deb Haas: If I'm going to be doing this widget, or writing this report, or whatever there has to be some sort of intrinsic meaning to it.


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Deb Haas: And you know, Gen. XI was like you just do the thing that they pay you for, and pray to God that they still need you to, you know. And now Gen. Z. Is like, - that doesn't work for us. And here's the deal with from sheer numbers. Gen. Z. Is going to outnumber here very quickly.


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Deb Haas: and they're not willing, like you. Look at the crisis right now with managers. I feel for managers like. If you were a manager in a corporation right now. My heart goes out to you because you're getting it from both sides. You've got leadership whatever expecting you to hold this. They're not giving you any training, never. You know you got pushed into being a manager. Whether or not you really wanted to manage people, or were any good at it, because that's the only way we could force you to do it. And then you've got jet z over here going. Ha!


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Deb Haas: That's what a manager has to do. - I ain't doing that, you know. And so it's gonna cause some of this to happen just automatically, because of Gen. Z like the force of just so. Gen. Z. Keep it up. Yes.


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Marion: Yes.


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Marion: you know, I think the generational dynamics are absolutely critical. But there's some other baseline fundamentals as well, and everything we talk about comes back to this psychological safety psychological contract right? And


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Marion: you know, regardless of whether you're in the tiniest little team or a bigger department or an entire org.


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Marion: If those things, if the the understanding and the the environment in which they can grow and develop, if that's not there.


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Marion: it's nothing's going to take off. Nothing's going to be good. Culture is going to be shit. People are going to be miserable.


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Deb Haas: Every day all day long for all these


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Deb Haas: transform or whatever. And it ain't gonna do crap! It ain't gonna do that.


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Marion: That's that's it. And like, you know, I think


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Marion: it sounds so simple when we say it like.


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Marion: treat your people well, don't second. Guess them, trust them. Let them do what you hired them to do. Like it all sounds really absolutely, Billy basic.


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Marion: but yet cannot do it. They cannot move themselves out the way. And


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Marion: so when I think about that in a in an Hr environment, going back to what Kasha was saying.


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Marion: we're the ones who are trying to champion.


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Marion: But in my opinion, we're usually the ones who are the least psychologically safe.


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Deb Haas: Yes.


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Marion: And we're the we're the ones with the probably the lowest sense of psychological contract. Certainly, right now.


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Danny Gluch: You know.


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Deb Haas: Surprised that the majority of us are women like, does that really surprise anyone that the majority of women in Hr. Or the majority of people in Hr. Are women.


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Danny Gluch: You know something that Simon Sinek says when he's talking about psychological safety is the, you know, a person's ability to like make mistakes and do things without the fear of being dismissed being disciplined


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Danny Gluch: and maintaining your promotability. And I think that's something that's really interesting when we're talking about the future of employment


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Danny Gluch: is


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Danny Gluch: so often these, you know. Oh, I'm fractional. I'm only here, you know, 2 thirds of the time, and well, that means that there's no promotion. You just have to keep doing this and maybe do it for other people. If you're ever gonna be, you know, you just build up your time. It's really interesting, because in government, I work for a local government, and we have a lot of, you know, part-time, 20 part-time, 30 employees


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Danny Gluch: and a lot of people choose that because their parents or their caretakers, and it doesn't affect their promotability, they're able to. Hey? I did my good job. I've been here so long. I think I'm qualified for this, and they can apply for it.


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Danny Gluch: And it's really I'm I'm curious how companies are going to handle helping people work themselves up into higher impact roles in their organization if they're allowing their people to work less than full time because of all the things that Deb's been talking about about wanting to have meaning and work-life balance, while also having psychological safety and a career path like Oof.


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Deb Haas: I got to tell you about something funny that's happening, that it was probably an unintentional thing with this whole fractional and and the environment as we see it right now.


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Deb Haas: Hr. Has always been like, you know, nobody ever gives the human because everyone thinks they can do Hr, because it's about people. So and that's all. They nobody really knows what it is that Hr does. Part of. That is Hr's problem. Because we've built this culture of, we need to keep. We have to protect the data we have to, you know, and we've carried that out into other areas of our of our work. And that's been wrong. We need to start like telling everyone exactly what it is. We do what we have all our fingers in.


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Deb Haas: But what's fascinating about the fractional thing is, you have someone who was a Chro in a company. They got let go. They go off and they go fractional.


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Deb Haas: and they've been pounding their head against the leadership, trying to get to be treated as like an eagle like be brought in before you make these decisions. Just at least ask us, you know, stop bringing us in at the end to mop up the mess. Bring us in beforehand, so we can advise you on it. And these Chros are going off on their own, and they're going to these companies, and the companies are paying them more


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Deb Haas: and listening to them more than their in-house Hr people, because they're a consultant coming in from the outside. So if anything is going to switch the whole Hr. And how Hr. Sits in organizations, it's going to be this fractional move


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Deb Haas: because the people who are in these positions are going. You know what you treat me better, and you listen to me more when I'm actually not your employee. So this is what I'm gonna keep doing, you know.


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Marion: Yeah.


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Deb Haas: And the thing I think, Marion, what you were talking about is just so very important about the psychological safety. Honestly, what it comes down to is that we don't allow employees to share what's really going on with them. We don't allow them to admit if they're afraid we don't allow them to admit uncertainty like they don't feel safe


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Deb Haas: to share how they are. And I started a group with all my accenture folks that got laid off. We got 1,200 people in this group. We meet every Thursday, and the hallmark of that call every Thursday for that hour at 2 Pm. Is that you know what you can show up. However you are, and however you aren't.


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Deb Haas: you can rant and rave if you need to. You can just show up. As, however, you are. The only things we don't do is talk about politics or talk about religion, but everything else is free game. You can go ahead and share it all, and it makes such a huge difference. When you allow humans to express themselves.


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Deb Haas: give them the space to say What's there and then not only give them the space, but here's an idea.


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Deb Haas: Why don't we listen to them?


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Danny Gluch: Crazy time.


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Marion: Whoa!


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Cacha Dora: I'm.


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Marion: Absolutely.


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Marion: Yeah. We we just recorded an episode with a friend of ours that you also know. Dr. Angela Young. And


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Marion: we talked about just exactly that. Like, you know, we're trying to create these spaces which are


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Marion: inclusive, right? But they're really not inclusive, because nobody feels safe to show up in their truest form. And


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Marion: you know it. It's it's astonishing that


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Marion: even where we are today and how far we think we've come in all of that.


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Marion: I actually feel like we've gone. We've regressed.


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Deb Haas: There's this mask of professionalism, and it's even in our language, like we joke about all these phrases that people use and everything. But we don't see.


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Danny Gluch: We like to double click into that idea. Deb.


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Marion: No, or circle back.


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Cacha Dora: I don't know if I have the bandwidth like it. I was like, and what what.


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Deb Haas: Can I? Just can. I just plus one on that.


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Danny Gluch: Oh, yes, the plus one.


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Cacha Dora: Oh, my God!


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Danny Gluch: Oh, I'm sorry, Deb. I had to.


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Cacha Dora: Oh, like after a full day of work, Danny! Oh, God! Touched my brain.


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Deb Haas: Another, one.


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Marion: The other one I hear all the time right now. It makes me wanna smack my face off. The wall is lean in.


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Deb Haas: Oh, my God! Oh, my God!


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Deb Haas: Don't you just.


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Marion: So.


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Danny Gluch: In the Kool-aid people. I saw the book lean in.


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Deb Haas: We just talking took it off and put it


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Deb Haas: English. If we just got rid of all this, we think that we have to talk with this certain professionalism like we have an idea of what it looks like, and it's like, no, you know what. Let's just be clear. Let's just say what we mean and mean what we say. It's that simple, you know. So instead of using and I apologize, Kasha, because I do love words, believe me. I love the the way you can play with words, but there are times when they use 10 words when they could just say 2,


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Deb Haas: and we don't see how distancing that is to our colleagues, who are from other countries doing business in another language like the emotional labor that we put on these folks from other countries like, Okay, not only do you have to do business in this language. That is not your 1st language. Now we're going to judge you. I mean, there's just so much that we're expecting these people to do. And then are we surprised that when we pay them crap


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Deb Haas: they finally decide, you know what? I'm going to go to this other company because they pay me a little more than that crap that you've been paying me. You know it's. It's amazing to me how we don't even realize this, what we're doing like. There's no safety.


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Marion: Yeah.


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Deb Haas: There's no freedom to be yourself. And and unfortunately, all of these change ideas and all of these things that people are trying like trying to get AI implemented and trying to get adoption. And AI, they're all putting frosting on a shit cake, that's all they are, because it's based on this shit cake of fear and of people not being able to express themselves. And are you, are you any surprise that people? It's not going to be adopted? I mean, really.


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Marion: Yeah. Well, I think the other thing that I'm seeing right now. And and we've talked about this as a collective recently. But the one thing I'm seeing right now is like


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Marion: when times are good, you know everyone, and their granny's a servant leader, or an authentic leader, or whatever. But when the shit's hitting the fan or the bookcase, as we said last week, which is a whole other story that I'll explain one day.


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Marion: You know all of that bullshit goes out the window. And and what we're seeing is stress behaviors. And we're seeing people revert


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Marion: to


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Marion: the manifestation of that fear right? And there's nothing worse than when you, you know when you work in in our profession, and you are maybe going through some challenging things within an organization. Maybe it is a difficult business transition. Maybe it's a reduction in force, you know, whatever it might be like.


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Marion: These are not fun times. These are stressful times, and this is where you really see.


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Marion: you know, the true leadership of people.


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Marion: And I'm really finding right now, like I'm starting to question.


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Marion: We are the great leaders like.


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Marion: you know, I'm not. I'm just seeing this all kind of play out around me, and people crumbling and and and the behaviors and all of the things. And it's


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Marion: how are we going to get through where we are today? If we cannot dig deep and we cannot really pull out


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Marion: the incredible leaders that we know exist, but somehow are stifled and pushed down, or actually just so, fucking checked out after dealing with all the bullshit cannot muster the energy. Yeah.


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Cacha Dora: Well, I think, too, Marian, to your point.


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Cacha Dora: When we were younger.


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Cacha Dora: The idea of a layoff was a black mark on a company, and now it's becoming currency.


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Cacha Dora: And I think that for a lot of man, and I'm not using just that like just as a layoff, right like when it comes to seeing great leaders. But there is no playbook


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Cacha Dora: for what to do in a layoff, what to do when you have to lay your team off what to do when you're mentally being prepared to be laid off. Because, you know, it's coming, like, you know, there is no playbook for that, because in the professional world, up until realistically, the pandemic that just wasn't a business tactic that was like forestalling a really, really like bad thing for the company or fixing a hypercritical mistake.


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Cacha Dora: And


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Cacha Dora: I think for a lot of managers, since they don't know where to go. They've and kind of going to that little bit of burnout we were talking earlier, right? They've lost that sense of curiosity to try and find a way to to manage cause I think that it goes back to, instead of being about the people. It's just about their tasks just checking the tasks. And that's the difference between, I mean, like we could throw the academic book. It's the difference between a leader and a manager right like.


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Cacha Dora: but I think.


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Danny Gluch: The things that has led to exactly what Deb was talking about this new employment where it really like. If the old style is work, and it's just. Am I doing these tasks, you know. Am I? Am I doing enough not to get fired or be in the next round of layoffs. Then the way to sort of transcend. That is


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Danny Gluch: okay. Well, I need to be my own leader. I need to find my way to survive outside of this little water that's getting smaller and smaller day by day.


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Danny Gluch: I mean, I know that's asking like a lot of people to like, go out there and lead yourself.


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Deb Haas: Oh, it is! It's scary as hell.


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Danny Gluch: Didn't.


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Deb Haas: But some of these, like what you're pointing about, Kasha, and what you're saying, Marion, like, where are the leaders? You know what's going on with this, and it really comes down to. There are voices out there, Marian. You've seen them. We run into them every day on on the wilds of Linkedin. You know


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Deb Haas: these little voices like screaming from the wilderness. And honestly, my personal opinion and I am biased is that most of them are coming from Europe. But that's my own personal opinion. There's 1 gentleman named Arna from the Netherlands who is just freaking brilliant, and he was talking about, you know, leadership in the future and what it's going to take to be creative leadership. And it really is going to take


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Deb Haas: it's almost like lancing a boil. Y'all, we all have to just be like, you know what this is the way it's been. We got to lance the boil, get all the ickiness out before we can start to heal.


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Deb Haas: and I don't know what that I mean. Oh, no! Did I? Did I grow someone out with the lance, the boil? Are you guys thinking of poppers, or whatever.


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Cacha Dora: It was just it was it was.


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Cacha Dora: It was Danny's facial expression. Yeah.


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Deb Haas: Sorry, Danny, was that the squint that they were telling me about.


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Danny Gluch: That was something a little bit different, but it was close. It was squid, adjacent.


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Marion: That was, I would say that was a squint on steroids.


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Danny Gluch: Yeah, it's us, was the facial expression of Danny going? Oh, no, you told it so.


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Marion: Vividly.


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Deb Haas: That's kind of the


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Deb Haas: it is, but that's the way physicians do. It is that they like I had this thing happen to me. I had an incision. I had gastric bypass surgery, and one of my incisions got because I didn't rest because I had to go back to work. Don't even get me started and one of my incision, and they had to literally


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Deb Haas: reopen it up, and I could feel it like when they were pushing it. Yeah, I'm not even going to go into that. But my husband had to pack it because I couldn't do it. Y'all, I took one look at it, and I was, you know, you watch those movies and the heroes like sewing themselves up. And they're like, Oh, I'm like I could do that. I saw one I was like, Oh, my God! And so he had to pack my wound for me, because it had to heal from the inside


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Deb Haas: before it could you know, before you could let the skin grow over it, because then it would never heal so.


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Marion: Love. Y'all, that's love. If your husband's packing up your pussy wound, that's.


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Deb Haas: Yeah.


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Deb Haas: it is love. Y'all, it's the. It's not the the romantic kind of like flowers and chocolate love. It's the in there with you in the nitty gritty of it every day. Kind of love. Yeah, definitely.


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Marion: Yeah, but that's that's also leadership. Right?


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Marion: I, you know, in taking it back to that like.


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Marion: want a leader that's going to metaphorically pack our pussy wounds right? I want someone. Danny.


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Deb Haas: Poor Danny days.


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Cacha Dora: Annie is trying to not just cringe, melt out of frame.


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Marion: I'm dying, as the more I say it, the more I see Danny really like, you know, almost keel over. But, metaphorically speaking, right, that's what we want. That's we need leaders who are in there, and they are. They are leading from the front, and they are listening to people, and they are talking to people, and they are taking ideas from people, and they are trading ideas. And they are trading thoughts. And


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Marion: leadership has to change. Leadership has to change. Yeah.


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Marion: And these are the things that you see in the good times. But when the shit's hitting the fan


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Marion: that goes yeah, and and that's the thing that's missing the most.


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Marion: Yeah, I might onion.


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Deb Haas: It really, is it it there has to be, and there's a couple of people like I don't know if you've ever heard of Christy Smith, Phd. She was she was at Accenture for a little while, and then she left around the time they were like, and I don't know the history behind that. But she is freaking, brilliant, and she's all about making work human, like making


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Deb Haas: work work for humans. I'm not even saying the phrase right, but she says it so brilliantly, and she has written a book called Essential, and I didn't mean for this to turn into an ad for her, for her book, but she's really calling for leadership to get with it and be like, you know what the traditional ways that you've led in the past in the Industrial Revolution. They ain't going to cut it anymore, not with what we're going through right now. You have to essentially alter how you think of leadership.


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Marion: Yeah, it's true. It's true. The game has to change, and it has to change. Now, yeah.


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Danny Gluch: You can't. You can't manage in in this new world from your ivory tower.


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Danny Gluch: No, making your big decisions with your.


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Marion: Nope.


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Danny Gluch: You know a couple of people that you talk to, who you know at this point become a lot of yes men, and it's you. You can't do that. You do have to do exactly what Marian said. You have to get down on the ground and listen.


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Marion: Don't give me Fluff. Don't give me spin. I don't want to hear about all the you know, all the good field stuff like. Well, I do, but I want you to be real. I want you to be transparent.


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Deb Haas: I want you to be transparent and honest, freaking. Be honest. You don't want people back in the office because of culture. You want them back in the office because it's gonna help with, you know, whatever your rent is, or you know, it's gonna you'll be able to control things better. Whatever your reasoning for bringing people, be honest about it. Tell us why you are. And you're gonna find that people are gonna meet you where you are, because the majority of us really are like


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Deb Haas: when we're working for a company. Part of it is like part of our identity gets tied into that company, you know, and if you are honest with us, and you tell us the straight shit, the straight, skinny


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Deb Haas: a lot of us are. Gonna be like, thank you for finally freaking. Being honest with us.


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Marion: That's it. And at very least, when someone's honest, you can make up your own mind, like, you know, we don't need bait and switch. I mean, like we, we've talked about this a lot. I talked about this on someone else's podcast recently. But Elon musk, like him or lo them. Most people loath them. I personally cannot stand the man. However.


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Marion: I will give him the fact that he's authentic. Yes, he says shit, and he does it right whether I agree with it or not. You know what you're getting so like it it and it's when people, you know, when companies or leaders sell one thing, but actually, once you're in there, and you peek beneath the veil. And you realize, oh, man, this is this is an absolute lemon, right.


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Danny Gluch: Yeah.


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Marion: And that's the bait and switch. And that's the thing that's in this day and age unforgivable. And that is the thing that our Gen. Zs and our alphas and beyond are not going to tolerate.


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Cacha Dora: Yeah. And I think I think the age of the Social Contract, when it comes to that, is going to take a whole other lens from what we've seen, because


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Cacha Dora: they're going to go. And they're going to tell the world the truth that they've experienced instead of.


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Marion: Yeah.


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Cacha Dora: Trudging along because of what the reasons that people need to trudge along.


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Deb Haas: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. We need a lot more protections, too, here in the Us. For for our workers we don't have nearly enough. The fact that we and I know I'm talking, you know, and I know the fact that we have healthcare tied to employment right now. If there's anything that we can see where that really does not work for human beings. It's right now, because literally now, you can lose your job and lose your life


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Deb Haas: because you literally don't have insurance. And I could say literally, one more time, and I probably will, because evidently I don't know what that word means anymore. But it's that ridiculous! It really is that I'm paying $1,700 a month on Cobra right now for insurance for my husband, and I.


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Marion: Oh! Geez.


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Deb Haas: My insurance runs out in a couple of months. So it's like, Okay, we need to get really, I I've been putting it off. I've been like I got some money. I gotta figure out how to make money. I gotta figure out how to start a business. I need to figure out, you know, and then, so that I know it's there. It's looming. I know the date that's gonna happen. It's like, pretty soon I got to go out and start searching for what you know, especially at our age. You know, we both have pre-existing conditions and other things that are like.


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Marion: So. Anyways, I didn't mean to bring everyone down like Whoa.


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Marion: No, but it's reality, it is reality. And you know, being the token European in this group.


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Marion: you know. I I it's


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Marion: oh, it just blows my mind because we do have very little protections here. The fact that you can pretty much


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Marion: pretty much be let go from a job without good reason, even though you know we know I know the labor law, and I know you know that it's not necessarily as straightforward as that, but honestly like people are, they're treated as dispensable here, and


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Marion: I've never seen it more so than I'm seeing play out around us, you know, in in 2025. And


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Marion: that again is where you see the true mettle of a leader. Are you treating people with dignity. Are you treating them with compassion? Are you treating them with empathy? Are you treating them with grace? Right.


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Marion: Or are you just busy saving your own ass and your cronies? And you know. Well, I'm all right, mate, so the rest of you can, you know, deal with it right? Like


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Marion: that's that's what really shows true leadership to me.


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Deb Haas: It it? I absolutely agree.


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Deb Haas: Absolutely agree. Yeah, it's been really pathetic with seeing how humans are being treated as line items on a spreadsheet.


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Deb Haas: You know. And there, there's that scarcity mindset I was talking about, too. Is that most companies.


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Deb Haas: you know, when all of this shit started hitting the fan. Their 1st thing was cut jobs cut people from the, you know, whatever, because they were worried about their P. And L. You know, they were worried about how they were going to appear in the stock market, or whatever not thinking forward to like. Oh, but we're going to need people that can learn


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Deb Haas: to do use AI, and maybe these people who already know how our company works and the products that we produce, they might actually be good people to actually train on using this. Hmm, yeah, I didn't think about that. It's all immediate scarcity button. And that's the leadership that it like literally, that's the industrial age. Y'all, that is, the guys with the big mutton chops and the part. But whatever like, yeah, let's get rid of them, you know. Let's


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Deb Haas: that's that's not the leadership we need going forward. That is not what we need going forward.


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Marion: No, it really isn't.


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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I really hope that. You know, there's a new kind of leadership that


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Danny Gluch: can act out of something other than shortsightedness. And you know quick wins and scarcity, because, you know, Kasha was mentioning. You know, there are a lot of industries in the States who leverage contract workers, and that's oftentimes because they're expendable, and they don't have to be cared for. And I really do think that there's a mix of being able to have.


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Danny Gluch: you know, not full-time employees that you do give benefits because you care about them, and that couple $1,000 a year extra actually isn't going to bankrupt the company. And I. And I do think that the leadership is out there. I just


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Danny Gluch: haven't seen much of it. And I I worry that.


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Danny Gluch: You know those those people are next in line to be the leaders, because it's clearly not the current ones.


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Deb Haas: Hmm.


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Danny Gluch: Well, any final thoughts, ladies, as we go on the future of employment? What's something you'd like to see? I said. My piece. What would you like to see in the


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Danny Gluch: future of employment.


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Deb Haas: I'm already seeing it with the abundance, with the abundance mindset, and I'm seeing it with a lot of women, and I know I'm again. Feminist. Oh, came to it late, but it it feels like women kind of grasp the concept of abundance


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Deb Haas: easier than men do, and I don't, and I shouldn't make that sweeping generalization. You know. I apologize ahead of time that I'm making a sweeping generalization there. But it just happens to be that most of the people that I've been coming across are either


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Deb Haas: gendered, female, or, you know, have reassigned themselves as female, and that just seems to be easier. The concept of abundance as opposed to scarcity. And it really is a mindset. It's really around how you view the world. It's that context. Your mindset is your context. And how are you looking at the world? And I've


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Deb Haas: intentionally been living out of the world of abundance, awareness, curiosity, and


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Deb Haas: I had a 4th one there. But of course my brain is like bing! We're going to go off on, you know, somewhere else. But and when I'm living out of those, it's like that that choice moment that I talked about where you have that moment, where you can make a choice, you can either choose to keep doing what you've been doing every day of your life, or you can choose something else. And when I'm living out of consciously out of those, it is so glaring when I'm not in the world of abundance. It's so glaring when I have my scarcity mindset is running me, and I'll be like Whoa! Where did that one come from, and it's


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Deb Haas: it's been a really lovely place to be in, like where I get to be out of, and I know I realize it's a privilege I totally get that. I am so


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Deb Haas: freaking privileged right now because I am in a place where I have been technically unemployed for a year.


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Deb Haas: I've had a contract for like 8 months of that, and then, you know, just kind of filling in here and there, but somehow it just works, and it and I gosh! I keep coming back to community and it a lot of times. I think we've come to this place because you hear about the loneliness pandemic, and so many of us.


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Deb Haas: We just stay in our heads, and we believe what we're saying in our heads, or we watch the news, and we we don't talk to each other. We don't like reach out to other humans and just say, you know what, and I don't know why we don't. But it it that whole idea to find your community, find those people that you can express yourself to, at least to get out of your head, if nothing else, because your head is a really scary place to be after dark. I'm just speaking personally


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Deb Haas: social. So is social media.


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Marion: Yeah.


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Deb Haas: It can be, Danny, depending on how you.


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Danny Gluch: And where people reach out or or have, you know that's the other place that they go to nowadays.


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Deb Haas: There is. But that's where that self awareness comes into again, though, because I was there, job searching right now is 10% actually applying and 90% managing yourself. And so I had to become really aware when I was doom scrolling, I would be on Linkedin, and I'd be going, and I'd be fine. I'd be doing just fine. And then there would be this point where I was like, and I could feel it inside my head or in my body where I flipped from. Hey, everything is good to oh, you're fucked.


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Deb Haas: and it and it's taken me a while to, but I've I've


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Deb Haas: built that muscle where I'm aware of my mood altering, and that's when I go, and I hang out with my hubby, and I pet my cat, and we have dinner together, or do whatever, and I do the thing that makes me happy. And then I come to social media for those things that I know it's going to give me that are helpful. And I find my community and the people that


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Deb Haas: treat me like a human being.


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Marion: Yeah. And just to extend on that, I just want to see that spill over into leadership.


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Marion: I don't. Don't talk to me about wishy-washy leadership styles. Just be fucking authentic.


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Marion: Just


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Marion: do what you say you're going to do. Show up. Listen! And even if even if you're not the type of leader that I jail with. At least I know who you are, and I can make choices. But don't bait and switch me. It's about time we started to be honest and transparent and just, genuine.


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Danny Gluch: Yeah.


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Deb Haas: And that's where that the whole, like the unfortunately, most of us, when we use the word integrity, which integrity is literally being your word, doing what you say you were going to do when you say you were going to do it, and we always get stuck on that morality version of it. And there is another definition of integrity which is literally, whether something works or not.


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Deb Haas: So a boat that has a hole lacks integrity and it can't serve its function of crossing the water right.


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Deb Haas: So that second thing of integrity. Let's really hook onto that like, if you're not doing what you said you were going to do. Things don't work.


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Deb Haas: So let's start using our integrity like it's like, Hey, you know, when I say that I'm going to do this, and then I do it. Things, work, life works.


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Marion: Let's.


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Deb Haas: Let's start fastening onto that rather than this moral thing of good and bad and right or wrong, we automatically. You already know this, Marion the whole thing around. As soon as we give something a value of good or bad, or right or wrong, we immediately get into a whole different world of. And if people could be aware of, you know, this is what it is like this moment, right here in this time


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Deb Haas: you put your feet on the ground, and you're in your body, and you're aware of what's going on, and you're present in your life. If more people could be present in their life on any given day during their day this world would be unrecognizable.


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Marion: Amen!


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Danny Gluch: Kasha any last thoughts.


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Cacha Dora: I'm gonna kind of just


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Cacha Dora: focus on being able to be present. I think one of the best things that we can do as as coworkers, colleagues, peers, teammates, managers, all that stuff


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Cacha Dora: create environments where people can be creative and have fun and like explore new things. Right like monotony is the killer of so many things. And if we're talking, we're talking about AI. We're talking about all these multi generations in the workforce, how people are adjusting to change. Right? It's a swirling dervish of a lot of things, but being able to be open minded to new ways of doing things, exploring new ways of doing things and just telling people to have fun.


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Cacha Dora: I I could guarantee teams would have higher productivity.


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Cacha Dora: happier people, and a lot of a net new that will result instead of just sticking to the task at hand. And you can't do it all the time. It's not, you know, like. Sometimes you gotta get shit done and you're just in Gsd mode, and that's fine. But help promote an environment where people can be in Gsd mode and have fun with each other. I think that that you would be present the whole time.


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Deb Haas: Agreed, agreed. Because when you're in a place of present and you're being with human beings just as they are, and you're in like. And I'm not talking about games. I'm talking about play, and when I say play, I'm thinking, a 5 year old on the playground who's like running full out and they got a stick. And they're building stuff, and they're creating freely. And they're creating things that may not be realistic. But they're in that space where they can play and have fun.


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Deb Haas: And when you put human beings in play, like when we tell adults to play, most of them are going to be like what? What like? Because we've given play this whole


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Deb Haas: definition. That is completely, not what play is. But that's what we do. As human beings. We got to make sense of everything. But just look at your children and look at them playing, and look at how much fun they're having making shit up all the time, or just trying something new. And


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Deb Haas: really we should be looking at children right now for the model of how we should behave at work. That's my personal opinion. Now, there needs to be a couple of rules like, you know, share, you know. Don't steal it out of someone's hand, or whatever. But the whole idea, when we're actually innovating and ideating there, that should all be in play in my mind that should be all just play and like, let's throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks.


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Deb Haas: And you're going to find that you're going to be creating things that you never would have gotten with a bunch of people sitting around in a room talking about the same shit over and over and over again, trying to come up with a better idea to get more productivity out of this, or get more money out of this or whatever like. Let's play.


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Deb Haas: Let's like, come up with that idea that you know, we wouldn't have thought about if we weren't just playing and having fun.


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Deb Haas: We're too busy, you know, circling back and double, clicking on things.


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Marion: And.


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Deb Haas: You did.


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Deb Haas: You have to go.


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Danny Gluch: Every everything you were just saying. Deb reminds me of our episode with A/C. And I. How often do we bring that up where.


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Danny Gluch: taking that playful approach. And and it isn't necessarily these like team building like.


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Deb Haas: No.


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Danny Gluch: The tower out of, you know, sticks sort of thing, which also I do love to do. That is a very fun exercise, but the play can be so much different and more productive and actually more meaningful to both the individuals, the teams, and the company. So yeah, what a great thing to end on. Thank you, Deb, for joining us. Thank you. All are for all our listeners.


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Danny Gluch: If you enjoyed our conversation, be kind and give a 5 Star Review. That would be nice, maybe choose some playful words or something to put into the 5 Star Review. Be on the lookout, as the elephant in the org is going to be joining with the performance innovation collective and the invisible condition on our disability initiative. That's coming out, which is a series of panel podcasts. And at the end it'll be a community building.


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Marion: Workshop event to be named later. So, and.


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Danny Gluch: Insert fun name that we come up with here. It is so thank you all very much.


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Deb Haas: Oh, it's been an honor, thank you so much. It really having this conversation with you all, with just extraordinary human beings like every one of you. It's like it's the best. I couldn't have thought of a better way to spend the last. I don't even know how long we've been talking, but it's been fantastic. Thank you so much.


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Marion: Yeah, the the pleasure is all ours, Dave. It's an absolute for joining us.


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Marion: Yeah.


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Danny Gluch: Everyone.




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