Burnout, Breakdown, and a Big F*ck You to the Corporate Cult with Deb Haas

Deb Haas spent 24 years in corporate HR before getting laid off — and finally getting free. Now, she’s helping others reimagine work for the AI era with transparency, humor, and zero tolerance for business as usual.

In this episode:
– The psychological toll of layoffs
– Late-stage capitalism & the myth of the “dream job”
– Why Gen Z won’t play along
– What leaders keep getting wrong about flexibility & safety
– Fractional work, portfolio careers & the future of employment

Deb is the founder of The Unexamined Mind,  where she helps people unlearn toxic career scripts and build work that works for humans.

🔗 Connect with Deb on LinkedIn

📄 Full Show Notes: Read Here

🐘 Connect with Us:

🚀 Follow The Fearless PX on LinkedIn: The Fearless PX
📩 Got a hot take or a workplace horror story? Email Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlesspx.com
🎧 Catch every episode of The Elephant in the Org: All Episodes Here

🚀Your Hosts on Linkedin:

🐘Marion Anderson

🐘Danny Gluch

🐘Cacha Dora

💬 Like what you hear?
Subscribe, leave a ★★★★★ review, and help us bring more elephants into the light.

🎙️ About the Show

The Elephant in the Org drops new episodes every two weeks starting April 2024.
Get ready for even more fearless conversations about leadership, psychological safety, and the future of work.

🎵 Music & Production Credits

🎶 Opening and closing theme music by The Toros
🎙️ Produced by The Fearless PX
✂️ Edited by Marion Anderson

⚠️ Disclaimer

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests, and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations' official policy or position.

Transcript

16

00:00:33.980 --> 00:00:40.399

Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the elephant in the org, everyone. I'm Danny Gluch, and I'm joined, as always, by my co-host, Cacha Dora

17

00:00:40.400 --> 00:00:41.820

Cacha Dora: Hello!

18

00:00:41.820 --> 00:00:43.049

Danny Gluch: And Marion Anderson.

19

00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:48.872

Marion: She's singing, Woo! Woo!

20

00:00:49.610 --> 00:00:51.800

Danny Gluch: Cacha's alive proof of life.

21

00:00:52.120 --> 00:00:53.389

Cacha Dora: I am here.

22

00:00:54.050 --> 00:00:54.289

Marion: Hi.

23

00:00:54.290 --> 00:00:56.955

Cacha Dora: Yeah, much to all of your chagrin.

24

00:00:58.410 --> 00:00:59.530

Marion: Today.

25

00:00:59.530 --> 00:01:10.120

Danny Gluch: Today's elephant in the org is that it's the end of the workforce as we know it. I really can. We pay for a sound clip from rem. That would be nice.

26

00:01:12.690 --> 00:01:13.250

Cacha Dora: Too many things.

27

00:01:13.250 --> 00:01:15.829

Danny Gluch: As we know it.

28

00:01:16.440 --> 00:01:27.090

Danny Gluch: and as you just heard, welcome, Deb Haas, everyone who's going to be our special guest to talk us through what everyone is missing about this shift in the workforce. Deb. Introduce yourself.

29

00:01:27.270 --> 00:01:55.610

Deb Haas: Hi! 1st of all, it is such an honor to be here. You have already heard me go on about how honored I am to be on this podcast Deb Haas, the founder of the unexamined mind. If you ask me what it is, I sell, or what it is that I do, I still have no idea. All I know is that I cannot go back to corporate world where I was. For 24 years I work for a company called Accenture, 700,000 employees. If that gives you any idea. That was my entire world.

30

00:01:55.610 --> 00:02:08.169

Deb Haas: And then I was. You know, I had a burnout was in partial hospitalization for depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation. The day I came back from that was the day I was informed that I was going to be laid off 6 months later.

31

00:02:08.169 --> 00:02:21.770

Deb Haas: laid off, thrust into the workforce, out into the world, as it were, and realized really quickly that nowhere was I going to find a job doing what I had been doing, or even anything close to what I had been doing.

32

00:02:21.790 --> 00:02:49.940

Deb Haas: And I realized that I really didn't want to go back to corporate world. And so I started a business, and taking the advice of a really awesome business coach, he said, you know what, Deb. You could be doing more. Hr, but then you'll find yourself in the same place in a year and a half, where you burn out, except this time you're going to be the one responsible for finding your clients and coming up with money. And I was like, Wow, that sounds really hellish. So he's like you need to find something that you love doing, and then make that your business. So that's what I'm kind of figuring out now. It's going to be somewhere in the area of

33

00:02:50.242 --> 00:03:17.330

Deb Haas: making work and life fun and enjoyable and bringing joy back to, you know, work like work has become this dirty word, literally a 4 letter word. And I'm like, you know, what it doesn't have to be that I'm living proof. The last couple of months every week for me is just fun and joyful, and and not because I'm bringing money because I'm not. It's just that I get to meet these amazing human beings that are doing these incredible things. And it's this is what I want my life to be like. So

34

00:03:17.770 --> 00:03:20.460

Deb Haas: figuring out. How can I do that and have people pay me to do it.

35

00:03:20.930 --> 00:03:21.190

Deb Haas: Wow!

36

00:03:21.190 --> 00:03:41.029

Marion: We. We love that. And you came into our orbit just through mutual contacts and projects that we've been working on around disability more to come on that listeners. But, there needs to be more joy in our profession, especially right now. It's.

37

00:03:41.030 --> 00:03:42.060

Cacha Dora: Absolutely.

38

00:03:42.350 --> 00:03:43.949

Marion: Fucking rough out there like.

39

00:03:43.950 --> 00:03:47.789

Deb Haas: It is grim, it is the walking it is. It's the.

40

00:03:47.790 --> 00:03:48.180

Marion: Yeah.

41

00:03:48.180 --> 00:04:06.089

Deb Haas: And then almost every corporation that you go to, and people are putting on this facade of trying to keep up. Because, of course, you know, the industrial revolution, or the you know, the age of the industry, industrial age, or whatever it's called, was all based on competition, you know, based on hierarchy based on, you know.

42

00:04:06.110 --> 00:04:27.720

Deb Haas: having to put on this good face, and they're still operating in that, even though we're seeing it crumble in front of our eyes, you know, with what's going on in corporations, and it's all based on fear. You know we're always afraid of what if I say this thing? Will I get in trouble? Will there be repercussions for that? And how can you have joy and fun on top of fear? It just doesn't work. Nobody's acknowledging the fear.

43

00:04:28.460 --> 00:04:35.520

Cacha Dora: Yeah. And we're we're even seeing what like the Gallup report that just came out on like shockingly, engagement is down again like.

44

00:04:35.520 --> 00:04:37.170

Deb Haas: No no right.

45

00:04:37.170 --> 00:04:37.980

Cacha Dora: You know.

46

00:04:37.980 --> 00:04:47.600

Cacha Dora: I think that's the reaction I think a lot of people had, though Deb, like truthfully, is just like, you know, this. This shouldn't be. If this is shocking, you're not paying attention.

47

00:04:47.600 --> 00:05:16.269

Deb Haas: That's it. Exactly anyone who's doing that. Oh, I'm so shocked by this is someone who is like literally has their head up their ass. I'm sorry, but that is the reality. They are not aware of what's going on in the world. I mean, they're not. They're they're completely. And either they're in an ivory tower somewhere off, you know, on some mountain somewhere, or they literally are really, really intent on hiding their head in the sand. And if you if you were surprised by that, that's literally what I think about you. Oh, God! That sounds so bad!

48

00:05:16.270 --> 00:05:17.140

Danny Gluch: Listeners.

49

00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:33.459

Danny Gluch: You know. You know what I think. I actually think that Ceos and and whatever people who are in charge of engagement are are waiting for engagement to hit Rock bottom and then engagement's gonna go to the Betty Ford clinic and come back all better. That's what I think is gonna happen.

50

00:05:34.890 --> 00:05:40.820

Marion: Danny, you're such an eternal optimist. That's why we love you.

51

00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:42.150

Deb Haas: We adore, that.

52

00:05:42.150 --> 00:05:43.179

Marion: Well, we're.

53

00:05:43.880 --> 00:05:44.580

Danny Gluch: So

54

00:05:44.990 --> 00:06:02.560

Danny Gluch: we've talked a lot, and I think a lot of articles and stuff are about the future of work. What work is going to look like, as far as remote hybrid. And there's been a lot of policies and shifts, and a lot of the talk about engagement specifically is about, oh, how is work going to look? And how is work going to engage.

55

00:06:02.960 --> 00:06:05.459

Danny Gluch: And then talking with with you, Deb.

56

00:06:05.590 --> 00:06:15.650

Danny Gluch: I think the the question becomes, what does employment look like? Not not as when you are working. But if you're working, or is it

57

00:06:15.870 --> 00:06:19.029

Danny Gluch: what have you seen? What do you think's coming down the line.

58

00:06:19.220 --> 00:06:43.749

Deb Haas: Well, the 1st thing I noticed was that everyone was talking about the future of work, and when you look at the future of work. It is focused on once again, the thing that this company or that this country cares about the most is corporations and capitalism. And you know, companies being able to, you know, produce more and make people buy more and whatever. And it's totally focused on the companies. And it's not focused on the human beings that are actually doing the work.

59

00:06:43.750 --> 00:06:53.910

Deb Haas: So it literally was me sitting down with Chatty G. Because that's how most of my days go these days is, you know, sitting down with AI and just throwing stuff at it like spaghetti at a wall.

60

00:06:53.920 --> 00:07:00.439

Deb Haas: And I remember thinking, you know what. Let's flip this around. Everyone's worried about the future of work. Is anyone talking about the future of employment?

61

00:07:00.760 --> 00:07:03.349

Deb Haas: Because I'm sitting here as a Gen. X. Person

62

00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:12.719

Deb Haas: who, you know, followed the rules. I went to school, got my degree, got my, you know, stayed with the company for 20 some frickin years.

63

00:07:12.930 --> 00:07:20.610

Deb Haas: and this is what I get. I'm having to dig into my 401 K. In order to keep things going. I can't seem to land a job to save my life.

64

00:07:20.830 --> 00:07:45.720

Deb Haas: and I was looking at all these other Gen. Xers that are like in the same place. And then there's the younger generation that is just coming out of college. They got their whole life in front of them, and they're stuck in this as well. So we're getting it from both ends of the spectrum, you know, and you're seeing it in the businesses. And I was like, you know what. There's something going on with employment. And that's when I started to see, hey? You know, we've got a lot of these executives that aren't finding another job. And they're like, you know, what I still need to pay my bills.

65

00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:50.910

Deb Haas: I still need to take care of my kids and my family. I'm going to go off on my own.

66

00:07:51.020 --> 00:08:12.129

Deb Haas: and you're seeing more and more of this. You're seeing more of the Freelancing. You're seeing more of the fractional like. That's a word that a year or 2 ago most people had never heard of. And now everyone's like fractional. It's like, Oh, and I'm like, you know, it's always been there. It's just there weren't as many people that were actively seeking it because they were able to find that corporate job. But the corporate job is going away. It's dying.

67

00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:35.209

Deb Haas: and whether, when that happens, I don't know, like I have this vision in the future, because, like I said, we're leaving the Industrial age heading into the AI age. And of course, in my vision, because I live in a weird land, it's going to be very different. It's going to be very much based. It's going to be more human than it's been. Let's put it that way because, believe it or not, AI is going to force us to be more human.

68

00:08:35.625 --> 00:08:37.350

Deb Haas: And it's going to be

69

00:08:37.530 --> 00:08:53.380

Deb Haas: jobs, the traditional job. There's going to be fewer people holding a traditional job than ever before, and there are going to be more people doing portfolio careers like at accenture. I had this one skill set that is a very niche skill set. I had no idea, when I was learning it, that it was that niche

70

00:08:53.724 --> 00:08:59.949

Deb Haas: and I can't find a company. That's because there's only like 6 or 7 companies in the world that actually do what it is that I'm an expert in

71

00:09:00.100 --> 00:09:19.970

Deb Haas: so. But I have all these other skills that they never paid me for. But there's things that I love doing like I love writing, and I love talking and singing and all these other things. And it's like, you know, what? Why don't I create this portfolio type of career where I use these different skills that I have. And I'll go to these different people that will pay me for those specific skills. And I'll create a living out of that.

72

00:09:20.300 --> 00:09:28.420

Deb Haas: And it's it's taken a real big shift, you know, a shift in looking at the world. And that's what I'm concerned about is I'm seeing a lot of people that are still.

73

00:09:28.850 --> 00:09:47.840

Deb Haas: you know, 6 months a year, 18 months unemployed, and they're still hanging on, hoping for that, you know, perfect job or dream job which honestly, y'all, is anything a dream job, I mean. Come on. And I really really want people to like, wake up and see that employment is altering in front of our eyes whether we realize it or not.

74

00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:53.160

Deb Haas: I hope that Spiel was okay, like, did I go too long? Did I go? Oh, no.

75

00:09:53.160 --> 00:10:04.359

Cacha Dora: No, I I really appreciate the call out to the social conditioning that so many of us have when it comes to work career employment, because I think

76

00:10:04.630 --> 00:10:25.810

Cacha Dora: I think a lot of it is unconscious for a huge majority of the population. Right? Social conditioning isn't something that you typically, I think, for a lot of people are very aware of, and for those that are, then they can kind of crack that code a little bit and look around and see a whole picture. But social conditioning is, is incredibly in the subconscious.

77

00:10:25.810 --> 00:10:50.189

Deb Haas: The context that we live in like a fish in a bowl, right is swimming in water and water is the context in which it lives. But it doesn't realize that water is there. It's just what it lives in. And our social conditioning about. How does work work? How do you? How does employment work? It's just so ingrained. And honestly, I will admit freely. I came to a little bit later, but I am a total feminist.

78

00:10:50.190 --> 00:11:05.910

Deb Haas: and there's a lot of the patriarchy that's been built into the industrial age and part of the way that I'm seeing. The future is like, you know what we're going to get rid of some of this patriarchal structures that are really not serving anyone. They're very competitive, very much in the world of scarcity.

79

00:11:05.910 --> 00:11:26.599

Deb Haas: and that's not the world I live in now the world I live in world of abundance. Which means that I'm finding these incredible communities of amazing human beings who are like. You know what we can do good and make money like for some time in the world. We decided that if you wanted to do good. You couldn't make money like that was some sort of like dichotomy that we decided on. And why is that?

80

00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:31.119

Deb Haas: Why? Why did we decide? That? Is that really the way it is, or.

81

00:11:32.470 --> 00:11:39.370

Deb Haas: You know, we're changing it up. We're going from the industrial age to the AI age. A lot of things are getting topsy turvy. What could we build? That would be better.

82

00:11:39.580 --> 00:11:54.060

Marion: Yeah, you know, it's really interesting that you're talking about that we had a guest on a few weeks ago. Angelique Slob. She's a future of work expert. She's yeah. Angelique's amazing. And we talked about this. And she said something which

83

00:11:54.640 --> 00:12:04.080

Marion: really is quite obvious, but actually blew me and Danny away in particular, I think, because she talked about how

84

00:12:04.450 --> 00:12:15.630

Marion: you know we're so stuck in the industrial age, and you know work has been crafted around. You know the Industrial Revolution, the days of Ford and and all the others

85

00:12:18.550 --> 00:12:25.749

Marion: can't see past it like we cannot. Aha! And and you know we still have the mentality that

86

00:12:26.190 --> 00:12:30.900

Marion: our company, our employer, owns our ass for 9 HA day.

87

00:12:30.900 --> 00:12:34.609

Deb Haas: Control. It's all built on control. That was the way that they were able.

88

00:12:35.420 --> 00:12:44.080

Deb Haas: you know. And so a lot of us as human beings. We just go through the motions, and we go through most of our days kind of unconscious, just trying to get by and survive.

89

00:12:44.190 --> 00:12:56.700

Deb Haas: And what will be possible when people actually wake up to like? What is it that matters to me what lights me up like? What gives me energy, that when I engage in it. I'm like, yeah. And then it's not work.

90

00:12:56.850 --> 00:13:04.440

Deb Haas: It's not work. If it gives you energy. Work to me has become synonymous with Oh, my God, I gotta do it to make money, you know.

91

00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:04.880

Marion: Yeah.

92

00:13:04.880 --> 00:13:33.140

Danny Gluch: Yeah, I mean, I enjoy effort and labor and seeing the product of of work. And I think most people do. But but I totally agree with you, and I wanted to go back to your analogy of the fish in the fishbowl and the water. And you know, throughout periods of history. We've had revolutions in, how work was done and how economies were structured, and when there was that big shift it was always followed directly by a

93

00:13:33.220 --> 00:13:49.419

Danny Gluch: big investment in the arts because people couldn't do what they used to do. So now they were painting, and they were making music. And we saw that, you know, in the 18 hundreds we saw it in the early 19 hundreds. We saw it in like the 19 fifties as well, and

94

00:13:49.700 --> 00:13:59.420

Danny Gluch: part of me wonders. And and one of your big talking points is about the generations and how they're going to handle this. I already see a bunch of 20 year olds who are like.

95

00:13:59.790 --> 00:14:21.649

Danny Gluch: I can't find that job that I studied and got my degree in. I'm going to stream my favorite video game and hope people show up and watch, and some of them, or they're going to make youtubes that are funny. You know. One of my friends was, you know, he wanted to be a comedian, and he was doing all of his things and tried really hard. Got his Mba in case that didn't work out.

96

00:14:21.680 --> 00:14:33.356

Danny Gluch: But he he does Youtube content content, and has, you know, a big following on social media. I don't follow him because I'm not on social media, but other people do. And he's very funny.

97

00:14:33.820 --> 00:14:46.609

Danny Gluch: and people are are more creative, and they're doing that. And and I I wonder and I kind of fear if the the older generation is so stuck in the water that they don't see that they need to get out and start crawling. And

98

00:14:46.760 --> 00:14:54.419

Danny Gluch: and it's gonna be a little rough for them. What do you think like? How? How can people get to where you are? Where you're like? Oh, wow! I have to adapt.

99

00:14:54.900 --> 00:14:56.829

Deb Haas: It. Really it?

100

00:14:56.970 --> 00:15:07.170

Deb Haas: It's it's such a great question, Danny, because what we're looking at right now is that in the in the workforce right now we have 5 generations, y'all 5 generations of people in the workforce.

101

00:15:07.170 --> 00:15:31.920

Deb Haas: People are living longer than ever before. We have all these outdated industrial age ideas of when you hit 55, you're going to retire. And then, you know, blah, blah, yeah, hell, no, that ain't going to be happening, at least for me and my generation. I'm going to be working till I'm 70 or 80. And there was this realization when that hit, it was like, Okay, I have to find a job. I only have this amount of money in my 401 KI got to figure out, what do we do? I could either go back

102

00:15:31.920 --> 00:15:45.289

Deb Haas: to doing what I was doing, slaving away, maybe take a job at less money than I was making, which is what we're seeing. A lot of people are underemployed now, they're not like employed up to what their you know what their skill level is. And

103

00:15:45.530 --> 00:15:48.420

Deb Haas: it really comes down to. I'm

104

00:15:48.530 --> 00:16:03.629

Deb Haas: actually going to be starting a podcast. With a friend of mine named Molly. She's a millennial. I'm a Gen. Xer. I've always been young for my age all. I don't know if it's the Adhd or what it is, but I've always hung out with people that were younger than me, so I've always been more into, you know.

105

00:16:03.650 --> 00:16:24.710

Deb Haas: finding out where, where, how things are going, wanting to find out what the latest trend is, that whatever I think for a lot of Gen. Xers. And for people that are older than that, the boomers, and even the silent generation that are still in the workforce. And they and they want to be, you know, they want to contribute. I think it's really getting rid of a lot of your getting out of your head and getting out of like anything where you're complaining, where you find yourself.

106

00:16:24.880 --> 00:16:43.139

Deb Haas: It's this awareness. It's being aware of yourself and being aware of how you're behaving at any given moment. And when you find yourself saying the thing, all this generation, or all the kids these days like, be aware that you're doing that in that moment, because in that moment you have something that is significant for humans, and you have choice.

107

00:16:43.340 --> 00:16:55.440

Deb Haas: And in that moment you can choose. You can choose to continue down that complaint, and where it leads you to, which is the same thing that you've always done, which what do we know about insanity doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.

108

00:16:55.560 --> 00:16:59.239

Deb Haas: Or you can take that moment of awareness, and I have a choice.

109

00:16:59.260 --> 00:17:09.709

Deb Haas: I could choose something. Well, why don't I actually find out about what this this Gen. Z. Person is saying? Or why don't I find out about this? And we're going to have to relearn the the lifelong learner.

110

00:17:09.710 --> 00:17:32.459

Deb Haas: We got to take that on on a completely different level. Y'all we got to get past our fear of what AI is because there's so many people are like that. They think it's going to be like the Terminator, or that it's sentient, or that it's, you know, it's a mix of what we're seeing in sci-fi, and a mix of what the fear, the scarcity, that we saw, the way that companies reacted to it. They read that 1st half of the sentence. It's going to eliminate this many jobs. And they all went. That's it. Let's cut all these people.

111

00:17:32.460 --> 00:17:40.719

Deb Haas: you know, and not looking at the second half of the sentence which was. And it's going to create 97 million jobs like they. It's like they all kind of

112

00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:50.690

Deb Haas: willfully ignored that whole second half of it, and jumped right into the fear and the scarcity. So we got to get past the fear and get into curiosity, and that's what I guess what it all comes down to be curious.

113

00:17:51.060 --> 00:18:02.609

Marion: We do a hundred percent. But here's the one thing that I would say that I'm seeing right now is that the job losses are happening without the 97% increase.

114

00:18:02.610 --> 00:18:03.020

Marion: You, said John.

115

00:18:03.020 --> 00:18:10.953

Marion: Right? Because, you know, we're still in the very early stages of this. You know, people trust tech thing. And

116

00:18:11.560 --> 00:18:23.630

Marion: there's a lot of economic factors. There's a lot of external factors going on, you know, tariffs. Anyone. That's just totally screwed everything around. So like there's so many dynamics.

117

00:18:24.120 --> 00:18:34.840

Marion: Economically, politically, sociologically. But then you add, in the technological like, it's, it's wild. So I think that

118

00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:39.700

Marion: I I think that we're in for a really bumpy time.

119

00:18:39.700 --> 00:18:40.110

Deb Haas: Are.

120

00:18:40.660 --> 00:18:41.180

Marion: And.

121

00:18:41.180 --> 00:18:41.510

Cacha Dora: So.

122

00:18:41.510 --> 00:19:01.359

Deb Haas: We're in the middle anytime. You look at any big change. We always know about the beginning of it, and we know about the end of it. But we don't really know about what actually happens in the middle of it, right? Unless we're looking at writing by authors, or, you know, by music that gets, you know, created. That's kind of like, we know, because a lot of people don't talk about it because we're all like in the space of like

123

00:19:01.840 --> 00:19:31.010

Deb Haas: Hunker down. Be alone, you know, or just like Hunker down until you can survive it. And and my thing is like, get like, get rid of that impulse and go look for your community like you're gonna have to fight against every instinct in you that's telling you to hide out and not say, and blah blah and no find your community. Find the people because I have learned so much about starting a business, or even about the world of like I was in hr y'all, that's all I knew, and I'm starting a business like is that insanity, or what?

124

00:19:31.010 --> 00:19:41.870

Deb Haas: But what I didn't realize, and what I'm finding is that there are so many human beings out there that by nature are generous and believe in the whole world of of

125

00:19:42.190 --> 00:19:56.250

Deb Haas: scarcity and abundance, who believe in the world of abundance, and they're operating out of a world of abundance that I have learned so much just from my community and the different communities that I've fallen into. And the humans that I've interacted with, it's been amazing.

126

00:19:56.810 --> 00:20:19.289

Cacha Dora: One of the through lines. I love that I've heard both Deb from you and and from Marion was really about like this, like we're in like this really massive season of change in work, right? Like in our jobs in the sociopolitical field, our economics like, we're like this whole period of time that we're in like I'm just gonna call it like the Pandorama era, because I feel like that's kind of you know.

127

00:20:19.290 --> 00:20:21.029

Deb Haas: Really good name, actually.

128

00:20:21.030 --> 00:20:23.781

Cacha Dora: Yeah, it's not branded but

129

00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:24.870

Danny Gluch: Now.

130

00:20:24.870 --> 00:20:37.300

Cacha Dora: Yeah, because now, but yeah, but like, even if we were to kind of like, put our little Hr hats on, and we start thinking about change management and the change curve and blah blah and all that kind of stuff.

131

00:20:37.610 --> 00:21:04.820

Cacha Dora: There's a lot of truth to how and then like, and then layering back on that social conditioning that you're talking about. People are so naturally uncomfortable with changing the status quo that even with AI, I guarantee you like. Half of the people are looking to keep things the same. They'll add the tool on. But like they're not looking to change how work works. And the people who are looking to change how work works. Those are the people who are getting creative.

132

00:21:04.820 --> 00:21:23.635

Cacha Dora: who are looking into these other avenues, whether it's the fractional work that you were talking about. The community aspect. I know we see the word community popping up a lot more now. Which I personally love, because I don't like that's inherently inclusionary versus exclusionary in my own little opinion.

133

00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:36.770

Cacha Dora: you know, and it opens the door to a lot of things and we are in, I think, what also makes it really interesting just to kind of lean into the generational end of things. Right? We are seeing the boons of what the Internet

134

00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:37.720

Cacha Dora: does.

135

00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:38.350

Deb Haas: Yeah.

136

00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:45.790

Deb Haas: we haven't like, like, is it untapped? I mean like what like the Internet was like, what from the nineties or something like that like.

137

00:21:45.790 --> 00:22:01.870

Deb Haas: I can tell you exactly when it started, because I was there. I was in an office working, and I remember the 1st time I had Netscape. And I got this thing called the Internet. And I was like, Oh, what is this you mean? I can type and look for stuff. And the knowledge is right there. I don't have to go to a library and look through a card catalog. And oh, my God!

138

00:22:01.870 --> 00:22:04.949

Danny Gluch: Yeah, they used to deliver the Internet on Cds in the mail.

139

00:22:04.950 --> 00:22:23.480

Deb Haas: Yeah, yeah, I did. I remember Netflix I used to get. I remember when Netflix came out, and I was like, Oh, my God! I can watch all of Buffy, the vampire slayer from the beginning. Holy crap! And I can watch episode after episode after episode. I don't have to wait a whole week in between episodes. Oh, my God! It was mind blowing y'all absolutely.

140

00:22:24.140 --> 00:22:25.180

Marion: I couldn't.

141

00:22:25.340 --> 00:22:31.179

Deb Haas: It. And I, Kasha, I'm so glad you brought that up I am, and this might be why, I'm

142

00:22:31.670 --> 00:22:32.930

Deb Haas: able to like.

143

00:22:33.080 --> 00:22:58.870

Deb Haas: you know, the whole generational thing and see the other side. I've been an Internet person from the beginning. I was on classifieds 2,000, which was the very 1st dating site on the Internet, and it became Hotmail. I think if I remember correctly, I could be way wrong on that. So I've been Internet dating since the time when people would be like, Don't do that. You're, gonna you know. Serial killers are gonna come and get you. You know, my friend would be like you need to call me when you're going out on a date and tell me where you're going to be. And you know

144

00:22:59.182 --> 00:23:21.970

Deb Haas: which is so different now. It's amazing. And I was in second life for years. I was performing in second life as taunter. Goodnight. Back in 2,009 to 2015 or whatever. And I knew for a fact that you can create incredible relationships with human beings through a virtual format I've experienced. I met my husband through second life. I mean, we met online before we ever met in person.

145

00:23:22.100 --> 00:23:37.230

Deb Haas: I actually officiated a wedding for a friend of mine that I met back in 2,009, had never physically met him, had only met him in this second life or in virtual space, and I flew out to his home in Delaware and met him the day before. I officiated his wedding

146

00:23:37.290 --> 00:24:01.320

Deb Haas: to another woman that he met online. So it's you know, we there's some people who are like, oh, we can't ever have the relation, or we can't make these amazing relations. No, you have the future as much as the companies are trying to like the last gasp. Dying gasp of white supremacy is trying to make us come back to the office trying to rewind the office to 2011. That is not the future. The future is remote, and these false boundaries that we have created amount

147

00:24:01.420 --> 00:24:30.489

Deb Haas: people around gender around language, around culture. All of those are going to start to crumble. And we're going to see that remote is really. And the companies that are really successful are the ones looking at the future. They're the ones looking. They're the ones you were talking about, Kasha, who are like those ones that are. Or was it, Marion? I apologize. I don't remember who brought it up. But the ones that are looking at the future of work is how it's going to be. Those are the companies that in 10 years are going to be the big booming ones and the ones that are doubling down. On the return to the office.

148

00:24:32.360 --> 00:24:34.049

Marion: Yeah, it's it's crazy, like.

149

00:24:34.790 --> 00:24:44.170

Marion: yeah, you know. And and the thing is I, what you know through my my research, what's really obvious, it's not about remote. And it's not about hybrid actually.

150

00:24:44.170 --> 00:24:44.540

Deb Haas: It's not.

151

00:24:44.540 --> 00:24:51.370

Marion: It's about autonomy and flexibility and human need, and

152

00:24:51.560 --> 00:24:59.159

Marion: treating people as adults right? Like, it's all of those things. And this is where

153

00:24:59.960 --> 00:25:16.759

Marion: some companies are really struggling like it is bonkers. And it's like all of the things that the research tells us, all of the things that are really just obvious. Remember the thing that that you would learn when you were a kid. Treat. People treat people the way you wish to be treated yourself right

154

00:25:17.390 --> 00:25:20.373

Marion: like that just goes out the window.

155

00:25:20.800 --> 00:25:27.090

Deb Haas: Like. It's it's like this whole thing where it's like. No, we own you and you have to tell us what you're doing every minute of the day, and.

156

00:25:27.090 --> 00:25:27.530

Marion: You know.

157

00:25:27.530 --> 00:25:52.230

Deb Haas: Trust is gone. If there was a trust between us and between employers, and I think there was at some point it started to crumble when the pandemic I probably started before that. But when the pandemic hit the whole facade of like you need to physically show up in an office to do your job like how much that was. Bs just became very apparent, and how quickly companies were able to, you know, gather stuff together and get people working remotely

158

00:25:52.230 --> 00:26:00.840

Deb Haas: like that whole like thing of where you know you have to be in an office to do your job. You know you don't have to.

159

00:26:00.840 --> 00:26:02.249

Danny Gluch: Yeah, we prove that you don't have to.

160

00:26:02.250 --> 00:26:03.760

Deb Haas: You. We proved it.

161

00:26:04.050 --> 00:26:15.859

Danny Gluch: And it's really interesting, because there's the companies who are going to embrace the future of work. And I also think there's companies. And the 1st person who I ever heard talking about really embracing this future of employment was Marion

162

00:26:16.090 --> 00:26:40.849

Danny Gluch: was. Maybe we don't need a whole head, you know. You're going out. You're trying to achieve your goals. Maybe we don't need 2 heads for this. Maybe we only need, you know, a fractional 75% person or or a group of people who are going to fill that role for us? 75%. And I really do think. And and I'm wondering, Deb, Mary and Kasha, if you have any thoughts on.

163

00:26:40.860 --> 00:27:04.520

Danny Gluch: you know. Deb was talking about the individual characteristics of curiosity, and willing to dissent, and those things you know playfulness and and whatnot that'll really help individuals go forward in this future of employment. I wonder about the companies, though the Hr teams, the leadership teams who are making, you know, strategic people decisions. What's going to help them.

164

00:27:04.900 --> 00:27:24.730

Danny Gluch: you know, be open to and then actually good at identifying when to embrace this sort of future of employment where, like this person isn't our W. 2 employee for 40 HA week? They are this other thing that we're doing for a shorter period of time, or, you know, fractional like, what's gonna let companies do that? Well.

165

00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:28.050

Cacha Dora: Think sometimes it might come down to industry

166

00:27:28.120 --> 00:27:55.900

Cacha Dora: like truthfully, because there are some industries that I think live and die by having their W. 2 workforce and their contract workforce. And what if it's a contract work if it's using freelancers? And I don't think all industries operate like that. But when you do see an industry that does, and you've never been in that industry setting, it feels foreign like, truly. But I also think that there's a lot of substantive lessons to be learned

167

00:27:56.160 --> 00:28:06.661

Cacha Dora: from having almost like a hybrid work model, but not hybrid in the way way that you would think of it right like like, from a location, perspective and proximity, but more from an

168

00:28:07.850 --> 00:28:12.850

Cacha Dora: like. How you're truly contracted in with the employer cause. I think that there could be

169

00:28:13.120 --> 00:28:33.499

Cacha Dora: Deb to your point, a generational trend, or just a preferential trend even of people wanting to have more autonomy. Marion, like what you're talking about, and more freedom of choice of. I'd rather have 3 employers that I spend my time with spread out instead of one employer, that I spend my time out with.

170

00:28:33.850 --> 00:28:47.020

Deb Haas: This is where Gen. Z. Is pushing the envelope, and I love them for it. I will praise Gen. Z. To the skies, because they're like, you know what they they want, meaning in their work. They want to be doing something with purpose. They have a tied to like.

171

00:28:47.460 --> 00:28:53.529

Deb Haas: If I'm going to be doing this widget, or writing this report, or whatever there has to be some sort of intrinsic meaning to it.

172

00:28:53.950 --> 00:29:09.020

Deb Haas: And you know, Gen. XI was like you just do the thing that they pay you for, and pray to God that they still need you to, you know. And now Gen. Z. Is like, - that doesn't work for us. And here's the deal with from sheer numbers. Gen. Z. Is going to outnumber here very quickly.

173

00:29:09.080 --> 00:29:33.950

Deb Haas: and they're not willing, like you. Look at the crisis right now with managers. I feel for managers like. If you were a manager in a corporation right now. My heart goes out to you because you're getting it from both sides. You've got leadership whatever expecting you to hold this. They're not giving you any training, never. You know you got pushed into being a manager. Whether or not you really wanted to manage people, or were any good at it, because that's the only way we could force you to do it. And then you've got jet z over here going. Ha!

174

00:29:33.950 --> 00:29:46.509

Deb Haas: That's what a manager has to do. - I ain't doing that, you know. And so it's gonna cause some of this to happen just automatically, because of Gen. Z like the force of just so. Gen. Z. Keep it up. Yes.

175

00:29:46.510 --> 00:29:47.220

Marion: Yes.

176

00:29:49.040 --> 00:30:05.250

Marion: you know, I think the generational dynamics are absolutely critical. But there's some other baseline fundamentals as well, and everything we talk about comes back to this psychological safety psychological contract right? And

177

00:30:05.740 --> 00:30:13.269

Marion: you know, regardless of whether you're in the tiniest little team or a bigger department or an entire org.

178

00:30:13.500 --> 00:30:22.380

Marion: If those things, if the the understanding and the the environment in which they can grow and develop, if that's not there.

179

00:30:23.090 --> 00:30:29.790

Marion: it's nothing's going to take off. Nothing's going to be good. Culture is going to be shit. People are going to be miserable.

180

00:30:29.790 --> 00:30:31.859

Deb Haas: Every day all day long for all these

181

00:30:32.380 --> 00:30:35.400

Deb Haas: transform or whatever. And it ain't gonna do crap! It ain't gonna do that.

182

00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:38.940

Marion: That's that's it. And like, you know, I think

183

00:30:39.080 --> 00:30:43.209

Marion: it sounds so simple when we say it like.

184

00:30:43.320 --> 00:30:53.230

Marion: treat your people well, don't second. Guess them, trust them. Let them do what you hired them to do. Like it all sounds really absolutely, Billy basic.

185

00:30:53.370 --> 00:30:59.290

Marion: but yet cannot do it. They cannot move themselves out the way. And

186

00:30:59.690 --> 00:31:05.849

Marion: so when I think about that in a in an Hr environment, going back to what Kasha was saying.

187

00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:11.429

Marion: we're the ones who are trying to champion.

188

00:31:13.430 --> 00:31:19.190

Marion: But in my opinion, we're usually the ones who are the least psychologically safe.

189

00:31:19.370 --> 00:31:20.010

Deb Haas: Yes.

190

00:31:20.430 --> 00:31:27.130

Marion: And we're the we're the ones with the probably the lowest sense of psychological contract. Certainly, right now.

191

00:31:27.590 --> 00:31:28.420

Danny Gluch: You know.

192

00:31:28.420 --> 00:31:35.039

Deb Haas: Surprised that the majority of us are women like, does that really surprise anyone that the majority of women in Hr. Or the majority of people in Hr. Are women.

193

00:31:36.060 --> 00:31:50.320

Danny Gluch: You know something that Simon Sinek says when he's talking about psychological safety is the, you know, a person's ability to like make mistakes and do things without the fear of being dismissed being disciplined

194

00:31:50.940 --> 00:31:58.290

Danny Gluch: and maintaining your promotability. And I think that's something that's really interesting when we're talking about the future of employment

195

00:31:58.480 --> 00:31:59.750

Danny Gluch: is

196

00:31:59.760 --> 00:32:21.990

Danny Gluch: so often these, you know. Oh, I'm fractional. I'm only here, you know, 2 thirds of the time, and well, that means that there's no promotion. You just have to keep doing this and maybe do it for other people. If you're ever gonna be, you know, you just build up your time. It's really interesting, because in government, I work for a local government, and we have a lot of, you know, part-time, 20 part-time, 30 employees

197

00:32:21.990 --> 00:32:36.829

Danny Gluch: and a lot of people choose that because their parents or their caretakers, and it doesn't affect their promotability, they're able to. Hey? I did my good job. I've been here so long. I think I'm qualified for this, and they can apply for it.

198

00:32:37.040 --> 00:33:00.739

Danny Gluch: And it's really I'm I'm curious how companies are going to handle helping people work themselves up into higher impact roles in their organization if they're allowing their people to work less than full time because of all the things that Deb's been talking about about wanting to have meaning and work-life balance, while also having psychological safety and a career path like Oof.

199

00:33:01.560 --> 00:33:10.529

Deb Haas: I got to tell you about something funny that's happening, that it was probably an unintentional thing with this whole fractional and and the environment as we see it right now.

200

00:33:10.530 --> 00:33:35.430

Deb Haas: Hr. Has always been like, you know, nobody ever gives the human because everyone thinks they can do Hr, because it's about people. So and that's all. They nobody really knows what it is that Hr does. Part of. That is Hr's problem. Because we've built this culture of, we need to keep. We have to protect the data we have to, you know, and we've carried that out into other areas of our of our work. And that's been wrong. We need to start like telling everyone exactly what it is. We do what we have all our fingers in.

201

00:33:35.750 --> 00:33:43.110

Deb Haas: But what's fascinating about the fractional thing is, you have someone who was a Chro in a company. They got let go. They go off and they go fractional.

202

00:33:43.320 --> 00:34:04.089

Deb Haas: and they've been pounding their head against the leadership, trying to get to be treated as like an eagle like be brought in before you make these decisions. Just at least ask us, you know, stop bringing us in at the end to mop up the mess. Bring us in beforehand, so we can advise you on it. And these Chros are going off on their own, and they're going to these companies, and the companies are paying them more

203

00:34:04.090 --> 00:34:18.240

Deb Haas: and listening to them more than their in-house Hr people, because they're a consultant coming in from the outside. So if anything is going to switch the whole Hr. And how Hr. Sits in organizations, it's going to be this fractional move

204

00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:29.229

Deb Haas: because the people who are in these positions are going. You know what you treat me better, and you listen to me more when I'm actually not your employee. So this is what I'm gonna keep doing, you know.

205

00:34:29.230 --> 00:34:29.770

Marion: Yeah.

206

00:34:29.770 --> 00:34:48.759

Deb Haas: And the thing I think, Marion, what you were talking about is just so very important about the psychological safety. Honestly, what it comes down to is that we don't allow employees to share what's really going on with them. We don't allow them to admit if they're afraid we don't allow them to admit uncertainty like they don't feel safe

207

00:34:49.020 --> 00:35:04.670

Deb Haas: to share how they are. And I started a group with all my accenture folks that got laid off. We got 1,200 people in this group. We meet every Thursday, and the hallmark of that call every Thursday for that hour at 2 Pm. Is that you know what you can show up. However you are, and however you aren't.

208

00:35:04.670 --> 00:35:19.860

Deb Haas: you can rant and rave if you need to. You can just show up. As, however, you are. The only things we don't do is talk about politics or talk about religion, but everything else is free game. You can go ahead and share it all, and it makes such a huge difference. When you allow humans to express themselves.

209

00:35:19.860 --> 00:35:26.200

Deb Haas: give them the space to say What's there and then not only give them the space, but here's an idea.

210

00:35:26.250 --> 00:35:28.229

Deb Haas: Why don't we listen to them?

211

00:35:30.230 --> 00:35:30.800

Danny Gluch: Crazy time.

212

00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:31.380

Marion: Whoa!

213

00:35:31.380 --> 00:35:31.830

Cacha Dora: I'm.

214

00:35:31.830 --> 00:35:33.370

Marion: Absolutely.

215

00:35:33.900 --> 00:35:43.559

Marion: Yeah. We we just recorded an episode with a friend of ours that you also know. Dr. Angela Young. And

216

00:35:43.670 --> 00:35:51.710

Marion: we talked about just exactly that. Like, you know, we're trying to create these spaces which are

217

00:35:52.040 --> 00:36:02.410

Marion: inclusive, right? But they're really not inclusive, because nobody feels safe to show up in their truest form. And

218

00:36:02.540 --> 00:36:05.949

Marion: you know it. It's it's astonishing that

219

00:36:06.160 --> 00:36:12.499

Marion: even where we are today and how far we think we've come in all of that.

220

00:36:13.050 --> 00:36:16.189

Marion: I actually feel like we've gone. We've regressed.

221

00:36:17.850 --> 00:36:26.859

Deb Haas: There's this mask of professionalism, and it's even in our language, like we joke about all these phrases that people use and everything. But we don't see.

222

00:36:26.860 --> 00:36:29.099

Danny Gluch: We like to double click into that idea. Deb.

223

00:36:29.100 --> 00:36:30.930

Marion: No, or circle back.

224

00:36:33.220 --> 00:36:36.230

Cacha Dora: I don't know if I have the bandwidth like it. I was like, and what what.

225

00:36:36.547 --> 00:36:39.407

Deb Haas: Can I? Just can. I just plus one on that.

226

00:36:39.680 --> 00:36:41.470

Danny Gluch: Oh, yes, the plus one.

227

00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:42.980

Cacha Dora: Oh, my God!

228

00:36:44.520 --> 00:36:46.360

Danny Gluch: Oh, I'm sorry, Deb. I had to.

229

00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:52.839

Cacha Dora: Oh, like after a full day of work, Danny! Oh, God! Touched my brain.

230

00:36:53.153 --> 00:36:53.780

Deb Haas: Another, one.

231

00:36:54.190 --> 00:37:00.790

Marion: The other one I hear all the time right now. It makes me wanna smack my face off. The wall is lean in.

232

00:37:00.790 --> 00:37:02.710

Deb Haas: Oh, my God! Oh, my God!

233

00:37:03.010 --> 00:37:05.460

Deb Haas: Don't you just.

234

00:37:05.460 --> 00:37:05.840

Marion: So.

235

00:37:07.550 --> 00:37:11.349

Danny Gluch: In the Kool-aid people. I saw the book lean in.

236

00:37:11.780 --> 00:37:14.189

Deb Haas: We just talking took it off and put it

237

00:37:14.190 --> 00:37:40.770

Deb Haas: English. If we just got rid of all this, we think that we have to talk with this certain professionalism like we have an idea of what it looks like, and it's like, no, you know what. Let's just be clear. Let's just say what we mean and mean what we say. It's that simple, you know. So instead of using and I apologize, Kasha, because I do love words, believe me. I love the the way you can play with words, but there are times when they use 10 words when they could just say 2,

238

00:37:40.770 --> 00:38:03.660

Deb Haas: and we don't see how distancing that is to our colleagues, who are from other countries doing business in another language like the emotional labor that we put on these folks from other countries like, Okay, not only do you have to do business in this language. That is not your 1st language. Now we're going to judge you. I mean, there's just so much that we're expecting these people to do. And then are we surprised that when we pay them crap

239

00:38:03.660 --> 00:38:15.470

Deb Haas: they finally decide, you know what? I'm going to go to this other company because they pay me a little more than that crap that you've been paying me. You know it's. It's amazing to me how we don't even realize this, what we're doing like. There's no safety.

240

00:38:15.470 --> 00:38:15.860

Marion: Yeah.

241

00:38:15.860 --> 00:38:39.639

Deb Haas: There's no freedom to be yourself. And and unfortunately, all of these change ideas and all of these things that people are trying like trying to get AI implemented and trying to get adoption. And AI, they're all putting frosting on a shit cake, that's all they are, because it's based on this shit cake of fear and of people not being able to express themselves. And are you, are you any surprise that people? It's not going to be adopted? I mean, really.

242

00:38:39.640 --> 00:38:49.399

Marion: Yeah. Well, I think the other thing that I'm seeing right now. And and we've talked about this as a collective recently. But the one thing I'm seeing right now is like

243

00:38:49.700 --> 00:39:04.740

Marion: when times are good, you know everyone, and their granny's a servant leader, or an authentic leader, or whatever. But when the shit's hitting the fan or the bookcase, as we said last week, which is a whole other story that I'll explain one day.

244

00:39:05.260 --> 00:39:12.800

Marion: You know all of that bullshit goes out the window. And and what we're seeing is stress behaviors. And we're seeing people revert

245

00:39:13.040 --> 00:39:14.360

Marion: to

246

00:39:14.580 --> 00:39:36.149

Marion: the manifestation of that fear right? And there's nothing worse than when you, you know when you work in in our profession, and you are maybe going through some challenging things within an organization. Maybe it is a difficult business transition. Maybe it's a reduction in force, you know, whatever it might be like.

247

00:39:36.260 --> 00:39:42.429

Marion: These are not fun times. These are stressful times, and this is where you really see.

248

00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:46.129

Marion: you know, the true leadership of people.

249

00:39:46.500 --> 00:39:55.730

Marion: And I'm really finding right now, like I'm starting to question.

250

00:39:56.530 --> 00:39:58.949

Marion: We are the great leaders like.

251

00:39:59.340 --> 00:40:09.670

Marion: you know, I'm not. I'm just seeing this all kind of play out around me, and people crumbling and and and the behaviors and all of the things. And it's

252

00:40:10.080 --> 00:40:17.370

Marion: how are we going to get through where we are today? If we cannot dig deep and we cannot really pull out

253

00:40:17.530 --> 00:40:29.350

Marion: the incredible leaders that we know exist, but somehow are stifled and pushed down, or actually just so, fucking checked out after dealing with all the bullshit cannot muster the energy. Yeah.

254

00:40:29.780 --> 00:40:31.879

Cacha Dora: Well, I think, too, Marian, to your point.

255

00:40:32.350 --> 00:40:35.059

Cacha Dora: When we were younger.

256

00:40:36.300 --> 00:40:42.600

Cacha Dora: The idea of a layoff was a black mark on a company, and now it's becoming currency.

257

00:40:42.730 --> 00:40:53.670

Cacha Dora: And I think that for a lot of man, and I'm not using just that like just as a layoff, right like when it comes to seeing great leaders. But there is no playbook

258

00:40:53.860 --> 00:41:19.340

Cacha Dora: for what to do in a layoff, what to do when you have to lay your team off what to do when you're mentally being prepared to be laid off. Because, you know, it's coming, like, you know, there is no playbook for that, because in the professional world, up until realistically, the pandemic that just wasn't a business tactic that was like forestalling a really, really like bad thing for the company or fixing a hypercritical mistake.

259

00:41:19.470 --> 00:41:20.650

Cacha Dora: And

260

00:41:21.460 --> 00:41:47.980

Cacha Dora: I think for a lot of managers, since they don't know where to go. They've and kind of going to that little bit of burnout we were talking earlier, right? They've lost that sense of curiosity to try and find a way to to manage cause I think that it goes back to, instead of being about the people. It's just about their tasks just checking the tasks. And that's the difference between, I mean, like we could throw the academic book. It's the difference between a leader and a manager right like.

261

00:41:49.010 --> 00:41:50.139

Cacha Dora: but I think.

262

00:41:50.140 --> 00:42:08.569

Danny Gluch: The things that has led to exactly what Deb was talking about this new employment where it really like. If the old style is work, and it's just. Am I doing these tasks, you know. Am I? Am I doing enough not to get fired or be in the next round of layoffs. Then the way to sort of transcend. That is

263

00:42:08.860 --> 00:42:19.899

Danny Gluch: okay. Well, I need to be my own leader. I need to find my way to survive outside of this little water that's getting smaller and smaller day by day.

264

00:42:20.010 --> 00:42:24.510

Danny Gluch: I mean, I know that's asking like a lot of people to like, go out there and lead yourself.

265

00:42:24.510 --> 00:42:26.460

Deb Haas: Oh, it is! It's scary as hell.

266

00:42:26.460 --> 00:42:27.080

Danny Gluch: Didn't.

267

00:42:27.210 --> 00:42:43.140

Deb Haas: But some of these, like what you're pointing about, Kasha, and what you're saying, Marion, like, where are the leaders? You know what's going on with this, and it really comes down to. There are voices out there, Marian. You've seen them. We run into them every day on on the wilds of Linkedin. You know

268

00:42:44.260 --> 00:43:07.530

Deb Haas: these little voices like screaming from the wilderness. And honestly, my personal opinion and I am biased is that most of them are coming from Europe. But that's my own personal opinion. There's 1 gentleman named Arna from the Netherlands who is just freaking brilliant, and he was talking about, you know, leadership in the future and what it's going to take to be creative leadership. And it really is going to take

269

00:43:07.806 --> 00:43:18.850

Deb Haas: it's almost like lancing a boil. Y'all, we all have to just be like, you know what this is the way it's been. We got to lance the boil, get all the ickiness out before we can start to heal.

270

00:43:18.940 --> 00:43:25.278

Deb Haas: and I don't know what that I mean. Oh, no! Did I? Did I grow someone out with the lance, the boil? Are you guys thinking of poppers, or whatever.

271

00:43:25.490 --> 00:43:26.990

Cacha Dora: It was just it was it was.

272

00:43:26.990 --> 00:43:29.561

Cacha Dora: It was Danny's facial expression. Yeah.

273

00:43:29.990 --> 00:43:32.160

Deb Haas: Sorry, Danny, was that the squint that they were telling me about.

274

00:43:32.160 --> 00:43:36.360

Danny Gluch: That was something a little bit different, but it was close. It was squid, adjacent.

275

00:43:36.830 --> 00:43:40.510

Marion: That was, I would say that was a squint on steroids.

276

00:43:40.510 --> 00:43:47.100

Danny Gluch: Yeah, it's us, was the facial expression of Danny going? Oh, no, you told it so.

277

00:43:47.100 --> 00:43:48.580

Marion: Vividly.

278

00:43:48.620 --> 00:43:49.660

Deb Haas: That's kind of the

279

00:43:49.660 --> 00:44:05.559

Deb Haas: it is, but that's the way physicians do. It is that they like I had this thing happen to me. I had an incision. I had gastric bypass surgery, and one of my incisions got because I didn't rest because I had to go back to work. Don't even get me started and one of my incision, and they had to literally

280

00:44:05.560 --> 00:44:26.829

Deb Haas: reopen it up, and I could feel it like when they were pushing it. Yeah, I'm not even going to go into that. But my husband had to pack it because I couldn't do it. Y'all, I took one look at it, and I was, you know, you watch those movies and the heroes like sewing themselves up. And they're like, Oh, I'm like I could do that. I saw one I was like, Oh, my God! And so he had to pack my wound for me, because it had to heal from the inside

281

00:44:26.980 --> 00:44:32.189

Deb Haas: before it could you know, before you could let the skin grow over it, because then it would never heal so.

282

00:44:32.190 --> 00:44:36.359

Marion: Love. Y'all, that's love. If your husband's packing up your pussy wound, that's.

283

00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:37.230

Deb Haas: Yeah.

284

00:44:40.640 --> 00:44:51.150

Deb Haas: it is love. Y'all, it's the. It's not the the romantic kind of like flowers and chocolate love. It's the in there with you in the nitty gritty of it every day. Kind of love. Yeah, definitely.

285

00:44:51.150 --> 00:44:55.250

Marion: Yeah, but that's that's also leadership. Right?

286

00:44:55.740 --> 00:44:58.470

Marion: I, you know, in taking it back to that like.

287

00:44:58.980 --> 00:45:06.009

Marion: want a leader that's going to metaphorically pack our pussy wounds right? I want someone. Danny.

288

00:45:06.812 --> 00:45:09.219

Deb Haas: Poor Danny days.

289

00:45:09.500 --> 00:45:12.460

Cacha Dora: Annie is trying to not just cringe, melt out of frame.

290

00:45:12.460 --> 00:45:36.699

Marion: I'm dying, as the more I say it, the more I see Danny really like, you know, almost keel over. But, metaphorically speaking, right, that's what we want. That's we need leaders who are in there, and they are. They are leading from the front, and they are listening to people, and they are talking to people, and they are taking ideas from people, and they are trading ideas. And they are trading thoughts. And

291

00:45:37.460 --> 00:45:40.959

Marion: leadership has to change. Leadership has to change. Yeah.

292

00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:45.770

Marion: And these are the things that you see in the good times. But when the shit's hitting the fan

293

00:45:46.070 --> 00:45:51.280

Marion: that goes yeah, and and that's the thing that's missing the most.

294

00:45:51.280 --> 00:45:52.390

Marion: Yeah, I might onion.

295

00:45:52.390 --> 00:46:09.269

Deb Haas: It really, is it it there has to be, and there's a couple of people like I don't know if you've ever heard of Christy Smith, Phd. She was she was at Accenture for a little while, and then she left around the time they were like, and I don't know the history behind that. But she is freaking, brilliant, and she's all about making work human, like making

296

00:46:09.830 --> 00:46:35.069

Deb Haas: work work for humans. I'm not even saying the phrase right, but she says it so brilliantly, and she has written a book called Essential, and I didn't mean for this to turn into an ad for her, for her book, but she's really calling for leadership to get with it and be like, you know what the traditional ways that you've led in the past in the Industrial Revolution. They ain't going to cut it anymore, not with what we're going through right now. You have to essentially alter how you think of leadership.

297

00:46:35.600 --> 00:46:40.909

Marion: Yeah, it's true. It's true. The game has to change, and it has to change. Now, yeah.

298

00:46:40.910 --> 00:46:45.249

Danny Gluch: You can't. You can't manage in in this new world from your ivory tower.

299

00:46:45.670 --> 00:46:47.729

Danny Gluch: No, making your big decisions with your.

300

00:46:47.730 --> 00:46:48.160

Marion: Nope.

301

00:46:48.160 --> 00:46:59.990

Danny Gluch: You know a couple of people that you talk to, who you know at this point become a lot of yes men, and it's you. You can't do that. You do have to do exactly what Marian said. You have to get down on the ground and listen.

302

00:46:59.990 --> 00:47:11.520

Marion: Don't give me Fluff. Don't give me spin. I don't want to hear about all the you know, all the good field stuff like. Well, I do, but I want you to be real. I want you to be transparent.

303

00:47:11.520 --> 00:47:35.089

Deb Haas: I want you to be transparent and honest, freaking. Be honest. You don't want people back in the office because of culture. You want them back in the office because it's gonna help with, you know, whatever your rent is, or you know, it's gonna you'll be able to control things better. Whatever your reasoning for bringing people, be honest about it. Tell us why you are. And you're gonna find that people are gonna meet you where you are, because the majority of us really are like

304

00:47:35.090 --> 00:47:45.470

Deb Haas: when we're working for a company. Part of it is like part of our identity gets tied into that company, you know, and if you are honest with us, and you tell us the straight shit, the straight, skinny

305

00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:49.910

Deb Haas: a lot of us are. Gonna be like, thank you for finally freaking. Being honest with us.

306

00:47:49.910 --> 00:48:07.850

Marion: That's it. And at very least, when someone's honest, you can make up your own mind, like, you know, we don't need bait and switch. I mean, like we, we've talked about this a lot. I talked about this on someone else's podcast recently. But Elon musk, like him or lo them. Most people loath them. I personally cannot stand the man. However.

307

00:48:08.240 --> 00:48:29.560

Marion: I will give him the fact that he's authentic. Yes, he says shit, and he does it right whether I agree with it or not. You know what you're getting so like it it and it's when people, you know, when companies or leaders sell one thing, but actually, once you're in there, and you peek beneath the veil. And you realize, oh, man, this is this is an absolute lemon, right.

308

00:48:29.560 --> 00:48:30.230

Danny Gluch: Yeah.

309

00:48:30.230 --> 00:48:41.059

Marion: And that's the bait and switch. And that's the thing that's in this day and age unforgivable. And that is the thing that our Gen. Zs and our alphas and beyond are not going to tolerate.

310

00:48:41.060 --> 00:48:50.840

Cacha Dora: Yeah. And I think I think the age of the Social Contract, when it comes to that, is going to take a whole other lens from what we've seen, because

311

00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:57.490

Cacha Dora: they're going to go. And they're going to tell the world the truth that they've experienced instead of.

312

00:48:57.490 --> 00:48:58.090

Marion: Yeah.

313

00:48:58.090 --> 00:49:03.209

Cacha Dora: Trudging along because of what the reasons that people need to trudge along.

314

00:49:03.210 --> 00:49:26.229

Deb Haas: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. We need a lot more protections, too, here in the Us. For for our workers we don't have nearly enough. The fact that we and I know I'm talking, you know, and I know the fact that we have healthcare tied to employment right now. If there's anything that we can see where that really does not work for human beings. It's right now, because literally now, you can lose your job and lose your life

315

00:49:26.230 --> 00:49:40.990

Deb Haas: because you literally don't have insurance. And I could say literally, one more time, and I probably will, because evidently I don't know what that word means anymore. But it's that ridiculous! It really is that I'm paying $1,700 a month on Cobra right now for insurance for my husband, and I.

316

00:49:41.160 --> 00:49:42.270

Marion: Oh! Geez.

317

00:49:42.270 --> 00:50:04.610

Deb Haas: My insurance runs out in a couple of months. So it's like, Okay, we need to get really, I I've been putting it off. I've been like I got some money. I gotta figure out how to make money. I gotta figure out how to start a business. I need to figure out, you know, and then, so that I know it's there. It's looming. I know the date that's gonna happen. It's like, pretty soon I got to go out and start searching for what you know, especially at our age. You know, we both have pre-existing conditions and other things that are like.

318

00:50:04.790 --> 00:50:08.010

Marion: So. Anyways, I didn't mean to bring everyone down like Whoa.

319

00:50:08.050 --> 00:50:14.450

Marion: No, but it's reality, it is reality. And you know, being the token European in this group.

320

00:50:14.630 --> 00:50:18.260

Marion: you know. I I it's

321

00:50:18.850 --> 00:50:27.850

Marion: oh, it just blows my mind because we do have very little protections here. The fact that you can pretty much

322

00:50:28.560 --> 00:50:42.140

Marion: pretty much be let go from a job without good reason, even though you know we know I know the labor law, and I know you know that it's not necessarily as straightforward as that, but honestly like people are, they're treated as dispensable here, and

323

00:50:42.430 --> 00:50:50.970

Marion: I've never seen it more so than I'm seeing play out around us, you know, in in 2025. And

324

00:50:52.060 --> 00:51:06.940

Marion: that again is where you see the true mettle of a leader. Are you treating people with dignity. Are you treating them with compassion? Are you treating them with empathy? Are you treating them with grace? Right.

325

00:51:07.370 --> 00:51:16.840

Marion: Or are you just busy saving your own ass and your cronies? And you know. Well, I'm all right, mate, so the rest of you can, you know, deal with it right? Like

326

00:51:17.460 --> 00:51:21.829

Marion: that's that's what really shows true leadership to me.

327

00:51:22.020 --> 00:51:24.130

Deb Haas: It it? I absolutely agree.

328

00:51:24.600 --> 00:51:30.870

Deb Haas: Absolutely agree. Yeah, it's been really pathetic with seeing how humans are being treated as line items on a spreadsheet.

329

00:51:31.385 --> 00:51:36.240

Deb Haas: You know. And there, there's that scarcity mindset I was talking about, too. Is that most companies.

330

00:51:36.340 --> 00:51:52.940

Deb Haas: you know, when all of this shit started hitting the fan. Their 1st thing was cut jobs cut people from the, you know, whatever, because they were worried about their P. And L. You know, they were worried about how they were going to appear in the stock market, or whatever not thinking forward to like. Oh, but we're going to need people that can learn

331

00:51:53.520 --> 00:52:17.550

Deb Haas: to do use AI, and maybe these people who already know how our company works and the products that we produce, they might actually be good people to actually train on using this. Hmm, yeah, I didn't think about that. It's all immediate scarcity button. And that's the leadership that it like literally, that's the industrial age. Y'all, that is, the guys with the big mutton chops and the part. But whatever like, yeah, let's get rid of them, you know. Let's

332

00:52:18.490 --> 00:52:22.249

Deb Haas: that's that's not the leadership we need going forward. That is not what we need going forward.

333

00:52:22.470 --> 00:52:23.850

Marion: No, it really isn't.

334

00:52:23.850 --> 00:52:28.699

Danny Gluch: Yeah, I really hope that. You know, there's a new kind of leadership that

335

00:52:28.820 --> 00:52:51.990

Danny Gluch: can act out of something other than shortsightedness. And you know quick wins and scarcity, because, you know, Kasha was mentioning. You know, there are a lot of industries in the States who leverage contract workers, and that's oftentimes because they're expendable, and they don't have to be cared for. And I really do think that there's a mix of being able to have.

336

00:52:52.350 --> 00:53:08.970

Danny Gluch: you know, not full-time employees that you do give benefits because you care about them, and that couple $1,000 a year extra actually isn't going to bankrupt the company. And I. And I do think that the leadership is out there. I just

337

00:53:10.300 --> 00:53:15.939

Danny Gluch: haven't seen much of it. And I I worry that.

338

00:53:16.380 --> 00:53:21.890

Danny Gluch: You know those those people are next in line to be the leaders, because it's clearly not the current ones.

339

00:53:21.890 --> 00:53:22.780

Deb Haas: Hmm.

340

00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:34.100

Danny Gluch: Well, any final thoughts, ladies, as we go on the future of employment? What's something you'd like to see? I said. My piece. What would you like to see in the

341

00:53:34.620 --> 00:53:36.230

Danny Gluch: future of employment.

342

00:53:36.700 --> 00:53:51.820

Deb Haas: I'm already seeing it with the abundance, with the abundance mindset, and I'm seeing it with a lot of women, and I know I'm again. Feminist. Oh, came to it late, but it it feels like women kind of grasp the concept of abundance

343

00:53:52.700 --> 00:54:05.130

Deb Haas: easier than men do, and I don't, and I shouldn't make that sweeping generalization. You know. I apologize ahead of time that I'm making a sweeping generalization there. But it just happens to be that most of the people that I've been coming across are either

344

00:54:05.140 --> 00:54:24.750

Deb Haas: gendered, female, or, you know, have reassigned themselves as female, and that just seems to be easier. The concept of abundance as opposed to scarcity. And it really is a mindset. It's really around how you view the world. It's that context. Your mindset is your context. And how are you looking at the world? And I've

345

00:54:25.140 --> 00:54:32.266

Deb Haas: intentionally been living out of the world of abundance, awareness, curiosity, and

346

00:54:32.870 --> 00:55:01.439

Deb Haas: I had a 4th one there. But of course my brain is like bing! We're going to go off on, you know, somewhere else. But and when I'm living out of those, it's like that that choice moment that I talked about where you have that moment, where you can make a choice, you can either choose to keep doing what you've been doing every day of your life, or you can choose something else. And when I'm living out of consciously out of those, it is so glaring when I'm not in the world of abundance. It's so glaring when I have my scarcity mindset is running me, and I'll be like Whoa! Where did that one come from, and it's

347

00:55:01.790 --> 00:55:10.159

Deb Haas: it's been a really lovely place to be in, like where I get to be out of, and I know I realize it's a privilege I totally get that. I am so

348

00:55:10.290 --> 00:55:16.470

Deb Haas: freaking privileged right now because I am in a place where I have been technically unemployed for a year.

349

00:55:16.730 --> 00:55:33.610

Deb Haas: I've had a contract for like 8 months of that, and then, you know, just kind of filling in here and there, but somehow it just works, and it and I gosh! I keep coming back to community and it a lot of times. I think we've come to this place because you hear about the loneliness pandemic, and so many of us.

350

00:55:33.910 --> 00:55:59.079

Deb Haas: We just stay in our heads, and we believe what we're saying in our heads, or we watch the news, and we we don't talk to each other. We don't like reach out to other humans and just say, you know what, and I don't know why we don't. But it it that whole idea to find your community, find those people that you can express yourself to, at least to get out of your head, if nothing else, because your head is a really scary place to be after dark. I'm just speaking personally

351

00:55:59.080 --> 00:56:01.080

Deb Haas: social. So is social media.

352

00:56:01.540 --> 00:56:02.000

Marion: Yeah.

353

00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:03.860

Deb Haas: It can be, Danny, depending on how you.

354

00:56:03.860 --> 00:56:08.940

Danny Gluch: And where people reach out or or have, you know that's the other place that they go to nowadays.

355

00:56:08.940 --> 00:56:35.360

Deb Haas: There is. But that's where that self awareness comes into again, though, because I was there, job searching right now is 10% actually applying and 90% managing yourself. And so I had to become really aware when I was doom scrolling, I would be on Linkedin, and I'd be going, and I'd be fine. I'd be doing just fine. And then there would be this point where I was like, and I could feel it inside my head or in my body where I flipped from. Hey, everything is good to oh, you're fucked.

356

00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:39.220

Deb Haas: and it and it's taken me a while to, but I've I've

357

00:56:39.220 --> 00:56:56.660

Deb Haas: built that muscle where I'm aware of my mood altering, and that's when I go, and I hang out with my hubby, and I pet my cat, and we have dinner together, or do whatever, and I do the thing that makes me happy. And then I come to social media for those things that I know it's going to give me that are helpful. And I find my community and the people that

358

00:56:56.850 --> 00:56:58.460

Deb Haas: treat me like a human being.

359

00:56:58.990 --> 00:57:04.579

Marion: Yeah. And just to extend on that, I just want to see that spill over into leadership.

360

00:57:05.530 --> 00:57:11.990

Marion: I don't. Don't talk to me about wishy-washy leadership styles. Just be fucking authentic.

361

00:57:12.440 --> 00:57:13.340

Marion: Just

362

00:57:13.710 --> 00:57:33.980

Marion: do what you say you're going to do. Show up. Listen! And even if even if you're not the type of leader that I jail with. At least I know who you are, and I can make choices. But don't bait and switch me. It's about time we started to be honest and transparent and just, genuine.

363

00:57:34.350 --> 00:57:35.010

Danny Gluch: Yeah.

364

00:57:35.130 --> 00:57:54.519

Deb Haas: And that's where that the whole, like the unfortunately, most of us, when we use the word integrity, which integrity is literally being your word, doing what you say you were going to do when you say you were going to do it, and we always get stuck on that morality version of it. And there is another definition of integrity which is literally, whether something works or not.

365

00:57:54.820 --> 00:58:01.390

Deb Haas: So a boat that has a hole lacks integrity and it can't serve its function of crossing the water right.

366

00:58:01.950 --> 00:58:08.650

Deb Haas: So that second thing of integrity. Let's really hook onto that like, if you're not doing what you said you were going to do. Things don't work.

367

00:58:09.020 --> 00:58:17.210

Deb Haas: So let's start using our integrity like it's like, Hey, you know, when I say that I'm going to do this, and then I do it. Things, work, life works.

368

00:58:17.210 --> 00:58:18.170

Marion: Let's.

369

00:58:18.170 --> 00:58:39.560

Deb Haas: Let's start fastening onto that rather than this moral thing of good and bad and right or wrong, we automatically. You already know this, Marion the whole thing around. As soon as we give something a value of good or bad, or right or wrong, we immediately get into a whole different world of. And if people could be aware of, you know, this is what it is like this moment, right here in this time

370

00:58:39.800 --> 00:58:54.059

Deb Haas: you put your feet on the ground, and you're in your body, and you're aware of what's going on, and you're present in your life. If more people could be present in their life on any given day during their day this world would be unrecognizable.

371

00:58:55.460 --> 00:58:56.450

Marion: Amen!

372

00:58:58.150 --> 00:58:59.690

Danny Gluch: Kasha any last thoughts.

373

00:59:00.516 --> 00:59:03.559

Cacha Dora: I'm gonna kind of just

374

00:59:04.080 --> 00:59:16.229

Cacha Dora: focus on being able to be present. I think one of the best things that we can do as as coworkers, colleagues, peers, teammates, managers, all that stuff

375

00:59:17.030 --> 00:59:46.070

Cacha Dora: create environments where people can be creative and have fun and like explore new things. Right like monotony is the killer of so many things. And if we're talking, we're talking about AI. We're talking about all these multi generations in the workforce, how people are adjusting to change. Right? It's a swirling dervish of a lot of things, but being able to be open minded to new ways of doing things, exploring new ways of doing things and just telling people to have fun.

376

00:59:46.500 --> 00:59:52.000

Cacha Dora: I I could guarantee teams would have higher productivity.

377

00:59:52.190 --> 01:00:15.259

Cacha Dora: happier people, and a lot of a net new that will result instead of just sticking to the task at hand. And you can't do it all the time. It's not, you know, like. Sometimes you gotta get shit done and you're just in Gsd mode, and that's fine. But help promote an environment where people can be in Gsd mode and have fun with each other. I think that that you would be present the whole time.

378

01:00:16.070 --> 01:00:40.660

Deb Haas: Agreed, agreed. Because when you're in a place of present and you're being with human beings just as they are, and you're in like. And I'm not talking about games. I'm talking about play, and when I say play, I'm thinking, a 5 year old on the playground who's like running full out and they got a stick. And they're building stuff, and they're creating freely. And they're creating things that may not be realistic. But they're in that space where they can play and have fun.

379

01:00:40.670 --> 01:00:49.640

Deb Haas: And when you put human beings in play, like when we tell adults to play, most of them are going to be like what? What like? Because we've given play this whole

380

01:00:49.780 --> 01:01:04.609

Deb Haas: definition. That is completely, not what play is. But that's what we do. As human beings. We got to make sense of everything. But just look at your children and look at them playing, and look at how much fun they're having making shit up all the time, or just trying something new. And

381

01:01:04.770 --> 01:01:28.970

Deb Haas: really we should be looking at children right now for the model of how we should behave at work. That's my personal opinion. Now, there needs to be a couple of rules like, you know, share, you know. Don't steal it out of someone's hand, or whatever. But the whole idea, when we're actually innovating and ideating there, that should all be in play in my mind that should be all just play and like, let's throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks.

382

01:01:28.970 --> 01:01:44.849

Deb Haas: And you're going to find that you're going to be creating things that you never would have gotten with a bunch of people sitting around in a room talking about the same shit over and over and over again, trying to come up with a better idea to get more productivity out of this, or get more money out of this or whatever like. Let's play.

383

01:01:44.850 --> 01:01:50.779

Deb Haas: Let's like, come up with that idea that you know, we wouldn't have thought about if we weren't just playing and having fun.

384

01:01:50.780 --> 01:01:54.620

Deb Haas: We're too busy, you know, circling back and double, clicking on things.

385

01:01:54.940 --> 01:01:55.540

Marion: And.

386

01:01:56.120 --> 01:01:56.650

Deb Haas: You did.

387

01:01:57.764 --> 01:01:59.820

Deb Haas: You have to go.

388

01:02:00.380 --> 01:02:07.229

Danny Gluch: Every everything you were just saying. Deb reminds me of our episode with A/C. And I. How often do we bring that up where.

389

01:02:07.980 --> 01:02:13.470

Danny Gluch: taking that playful approach. And and it isn't necessarily these like team building like.

390

01:02:13.810 --> 01:02:14.230

Deb Haas: No.

391

01:02:14.230 --> 01:02:35.560

Danny Gluch: The tower out of, you know, sticks sort of thing, which also I do love to do. That is a very fun exercise, but the play can be so much different and more productive and actually more meaningful to both the individuals, the teams, and the company. So yeah, what a great thing to end on. Thank you, Deb, for joining us. Thank you. All are for all our listeners.

392

01:02:35.560 --> 01:03:03.320

Danny Gluch: If you enjoyed our conversation, be kind and give a 5 Star Review. That would be nice, maybe choose some playful words or something to put into the 5 Star Review. Be on the lookout, as the elephant in the org is going to be joining with the performance innovation collective and the invisible condition on our disability initiative. That's coming out, which is a series of panel podcasts. And at the end it'll be a community building.

393

01:03:03.320 --> 01:03:10.040

Marion: Workshop event to be named later. So, and.

394

01:03:10.040 --> 01:03:15.440

Danny Gluch: Insert fun name that we come up with here. It is so thank you all very much.

395

01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:31.050

Deb Haas: Oh, it's been an honor, thank you so much. It really having this conversation with you all, with just extraordinary human beings like every one of you. It's like it's the best. I couldn't have thought of a better way to spend the last. I don't even know how long we've been talking, but it's been fantastic. Thank you so much.

396

01:03:31.280 --> 01:03:34.940

Marion: Yeah, the the pleasure is all ours, Dave. It's an absolute for joining us.

397

01:03:35.140 --> 01:03:35.750

Marion: Yeah.

398

01:03:35.750 --> 01:03:36.760

Danny Gluch: Everyone.