Memo on Affection: Balancing Love and the Employee Handbook

In this special Valentine's Day edition of "The Elephant in the Org," we unwrap the often taboo topic of office romance with a blend of humor, honesty, and HR savvy. Join Danny Gluch and his co-hosts Cacha Dora, and Marion Anderson as they delve into the heart (and potential heartaches) of finding love amidst the cubicles. Whether it's the thrill of a shared project turning into something more, or the pitfalls of navigating a corporate cupid's arrow, this episode is a candid exploration of where the personal collides with the professional.

From the complexities of confessing a workplace crush to dissecting the dos and don'ts in the employee handbook, our hosts leave no stone unturned. They share personal anecdotes, challenge traditional views, and provide insightful advice on balancing affection with ethical boundaries in the workplace. Tune in to this engaging episode for a thoughtful yet light-hearted look at the intertwining worlds of love and work - a memo on affection you didn't know you needed! 

You can find the shownotes here.

📩 Got a hot take or a workplace horror story? Email us at elephant@thefearlesspx.com

🚀 Your Hosts on LinkedIn

• 🐘 Marion Anderson — https://www.linkedin.com/in/marionandersonpx
  
  
• 🐘 Danny Gluch — https://www.linkedin.com/in/dgluch
  
  
• 🐘 Cacha Dora — https://www.linkedin.com/in/cachadora
  
  

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🎙️ About the Show
The Elephant in the Org drops new episodes every two weeks starting April 2024 — fearless conversations about leadership, psychological safety, and the future of work.

🎵 Music & Production Credits
🎶 Opening and closing theme music by The Toros
🎙️ Produced by The Fearless PX
✂️ Edited by Marion Anderson

⚠️ Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests, and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations' official policy or position.

Topics: employee surveys, listening culture, trust, people analytics, psychological safety, employee voice, ...

Transcript

EP15 Memo on Affection: Balancing Love and the Employee Handbook

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Danny Gluch: welcome back to the elephant in the org everyone presented by the fearless people experience. I'm Danny Gluch, and I'm here with my co-hosts. Cacha Dora, and Marion Anderson.

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Danny Gluch: Happy Valentine's Day! Guy. Yes, happy Valentine's Day, which means the elephant in the org is office romance. -Oh!

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Danny Gluch: Oh, man, like, seriously, I I'm single, and it's one of those things that's like. it's hard to make friends as an adult right? Like it's hard to make friends as an adult.

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Danny Gluch: And

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Danny Gluch: where do you make your friends? II guess, at work meeting someone for romance like, I know, there's like a million apps out there, and they're all terrible.

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Danny Gluch: So where do you spend the rest of your awake life

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Danny Gluch: work at work, and so like it makes sense. But, like boy, are there pitfalls, and, oh, my God! Conflicts of interest and just bad ethical things!

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Marion Anderson: Every encounter is a boss. Ca, encounter in video game speak not in Workspeak, but still very funny to be able to use it definitely. Not. What do you think, ladies, is the important things for

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Marion Anderson: for people to like. Keep in mind what are some of the the elephants that people just don't talk about when it comes to to office romance. Alright, I'm going to get him a soapbox here. Surprise, not not anything new.

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Marion Anderson: as a human being, and as an HR. Ledar.

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I don't give up.

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Marion Anderson: If about someone's romantic life, I really don't. I've got bigger things to deal with right. I'm trying to deal with, you know. business strategy, and keeping the lights on and and and helping people feel engaged, developed, and loved, and all of that right. And honestly, when when stuff comes across my desk where it's like, Oh, well.

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Marion Anderson: this person's dating this person like. Honestly, I couldn't care less

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Marion Anderson: half. That's it right now. That's a very flippant response, obviously, because actually put my Cds, how? And I understand that there's very serious ramifications on there, particularly around complex events and stuff like that right?

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Marion Anderson: and I think that as long as an organization is very clear with their employees like, Look.

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Marion Anderson: you know, we work in a collegial environment, people build relationships, they build friendships, they may even fall in love. That's beautiful, right?

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Marion Anderson: However, if there is a clear conflict of interest, then it's something we gotta talk about, right? So manager to subordinate, for example.

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happens like I've been in jobs for

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Marion Anderson: I honestly I could count off a number of my

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Marion Anderson: peers and colleagues that are now married to and had babies with people that reported into them right like. It's a beautiful thing loves a beautiful thing.

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Marion Anderson: you know. We just have to be mindful that there's there's potential complex of interest, and they should be disclosed. They should be handled with discretion and common sense

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Marion Anderson: and compassion, and all the things that we talk about, but honestly, like

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Cacha Dora: love, his love. It's a beautiful thing. And why are we getting our tights in a tangle about? It is my personal opinion.

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Cacha Dora: things that will be of positive nature, and things that might not be when you're looking at those those reporting lines, especially when it might affect decisions which then affect business and like. But again, having a conversation on like, Can we move you? Can we do this? Can we do that and like it.

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Cacha Dora: It's so interesting. And I think it really like.

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Cacha Dora: if you've grown up in a what I'm gonna call the customer service space right. That could be like food services retail like anything where you're really customer facing you, those bonds tend to get built really quickly with people right? Because because you're in the thick of it, like all. And if you're good at your job, that's kind of

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Danny Gluch: what you're good at your job. You build those relationships quickly. And and you build that trust. Guess what? Also sometimes builds? Yeah, that just being human. But literally, if you're good at your job, you're going to have those connections build very quick, very quickly, very deeply. And you know, gosh! I was laughing, and you were saying next. It just made me think of

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Marion Anderson: a previous life that you and I both had possibly working night shift before something. We have been launched the date the following day, and there's nothing like a nice thing about that. There's nothing like a nice shift that that brings together that kind of camaradity. And, you know, getting each other through really tough

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Marion Anderson: relationships are really not best when they're built on these intense traumatic experiences.

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It's true, though, but that's it's it's very common as a result, right? And like my thing, like I've I've seen

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Cacha Dora: in office. We're actually in office, right like in work, cause I thought, everything's in an office depending on where you work romances that have to quote one of our previous episodes going tits up. And I've also seen them be really successful. Beautiful marriages with babies and dogs and cats, and all that good stuff, right? So like building the family versus like literally having to not allow people in the same room.

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Cacha Dora: So you know, definitely seen it gone both ways. And so it's I mean, it's it's a people thing at the end of the day, not people meaning a people thing. And hr, but a people thing meaning like humans are complex people

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Cacha Dora: like. And and and you enter the room with all of that, to begin with, right? And so, like my my views, like I've I've seen people get fired for those those romances that you're not supposed to have and so my opinions like I feel like pretty much neutral, I guess, is the best way to put it like, I'm very much like.

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Cacha Dora: Can you do your job. Are you affecting other people? Are you doing something illegal, or something that literally goes against your your contract with the company like, just

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Marion Anderson: if it's really important. Then follow it. But like, be careful. When I hear things like people losing their jobs for falling in love and not doing anything wrong. Nobody was inappropriate. You know. Nobody was you know, conflicting interest and using their position. And anyway, like they just fell in love with someone that they worked with here, people losing their jobs for that shit. Really. Have you guys ever seen the movie office? Christmas party?

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Marion Anderson: Oh, you got to watch that movie, Kate Mckennon.

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Marion Anderson: please the Hr. Manager, the Hr. Leader. And oh, my God, she's like, she's like that stereotypical.

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Marion Anderson: Yeah. And it from Hr. Right where she's like, you can't do this. Can't do that. Da da da da, da, and she's like, you know, no romance season. Blah blah blah! But then, actually, at the office parties. She's the one that later here dying the most get strong in his dancing and doing all sorts of crazy stuff. She's kind of fun, but that's why I think, call when I think of of these situations or the office. Right? Yeah, exactly. It's

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Cacha Dora: honestly, it's so old skill. It is really it really is, Marion, I think you know, and that's what I'm like. Hi.

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Cacha Dora: if it's one of those like, do harm to know no one right like if you're not like doing the wrong in the wrong place like.

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Cacha Dora: And, Danny.

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Cacha Dora: my opinions, I think it's like, I think we're all basically like aligned on that end of things right like like finding. No what I'm saying like in like finding things, finding finding human connection doesn't come easy to a lot of people. And when you're in, when you're in the workplace, that's really like one of the most common and easiest ways to find that connection. And like

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Cacha Dora: like I, that between my screen I have the 2 of you on top, and I feel like there, that thread is right here, right like between, like where that connection is, and where where that like feeling of people.

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Cacha Dora:  being, it being okay with people finding people where they find people.

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Danny Gluch: Yeah, yeah, no, no. We are lined on that I, and it's it's totally like

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Danny Gluch: if you don't end up getting like a crush on someone you work with. You might just be bad at relating to people like that's like that might be a sign.

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Marion Anderson: although I can't think I don't know if I've ever had a crush on some work, but

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Cacha Dora: maybe even I've been with my husband too long. Sorry.

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Danny Gluch: anyway. So like the totally natural normal.

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Danny Gluch: I think one of the keys that that's come up is is the trusting people like, do we trust

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Danny Gluch: that you

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Danny Gluch: are adults and can handle these kinds of relationships? Cause some people are just like, not ready to have, like mature adult relationships where they try to connect, try to build something, and you know what it might not happen. And we can still act as adults afterwards, too. Like.

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Danny Gluch: if you're not ready to do that, you're probably not ready to try to date inside of an office setting.

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Marion Anderson: I mean, if you're not ready to do that, should you be, you know. Yeah, I mean, that's that's true. But we do. We do have, and it's not even an age thing like we have people all ages who just aren't ready to be adults about it.

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Danny Gluch: But I also want to point out as the token mail of this podcast that

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Danny Gluch: it can be really tricky to to date and express affection and things, and also

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Danny Gluch: is this appropriate or is this going to set up

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Marion Anderson: ho! Like a hostile working environment where this person now feels like. Oh, my goodness, I don't want to go into a meeting with Danny, because I, Danny, said something that makes me think Danny has a crush on me, and I don't like that, and I don't want that in my work. Life is such a fine line to work to walk right? I mean, you know all of this aside.

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Marion Anderson: Professionalism is absolutely critical, right? You know, we live in a lettuce world. So you know, we nobody should be going in and touching someone, you know, at work, or making you know any sort of suggestive comments, or whatever right cause it just leaves you wide open, and it's

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Marion Anderson: is as harmless as you think that comment might be, and it truly comes from a good place. It can be construed in the wrong way, and it leaves you wide open. It leaves the company wide open, right? So we need to be smart, we need to switch our heads on. But you know.

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Marion Anderson: going back to the earlier point

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Marion Anderson: within a place where you're spending a third of your life, and you're in a place where you're spending time with people that probably think like you, or have similar interests to you. And that's a natural way to form a bond, and and and you know that can run deeper, which I think is beautiful. Here's the one thing I would say, though, and this is this is where it should be tricky. You shouldn't hide it right, you know. You should disclose it, you know, if if you start dating a Co. Worker.

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Marion Anderson: The yes, the the sneaking around might be fun. It might be kinda hot in the beginning, but in fact, you know, it does leave rest open. And so it the wise thing is to say, you know, to disclose it to your manager and say, Look, I just wanna be open. I'm dating this person, and that's a hard thing, because

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Danny Gluch: you may have just dated them twice. And you you don't know where it's going. You don't wait. Very like this is official. Now we have to report it to Hr. We report Hr level serious yet. I don't know, I know. And I honestly, there's a label you. You kind of mentally never want right like. Oh, am I reported to Hr level now? I'm like, I don't think I want to be reporting that. And again, like when people when I

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Marion Anderson: been earlier in my period and people have come to me and went, you know, just following policy and disclosing that we're in a relationship. And I'm like, Okay.

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Marion Anderson: neither one of you to port to each other. Are you working on any any shared interest? Did that no? Well, congratulations. I hope it's a a beautiful thing. And

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Danny Gluch: so here's a question, Marian. II feel like it's the working on some kind of a project or deliverable together that like, hey? We spent a lot of time together. We work really well together. That's where we found this chemistry. So what what's what's a Co. Common sense, compassionate policy around, hey? You do work on projects. You are dating.

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Danny Gluch: What? What are some of those like policies that can work. What are some of the conflicts of interest within the project that the dating could could mess up because the only real conflict of interest is, if one's more senior than the other, and one report sent to the other. Right? That that's the main thing, as far as I could see.

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Marion Anderson: You know you're totally right when you work in close proximity, you're likely to form those bones, and it can happen. The real single source of truth is what's in your company policy. Now, hopefully, your company policy was written from a place of common sense and compassion, right? And understands the fact that people are people, and they have emotions, and they that are attracted to other humans and they fall in love. And that's a beautiful thing, right?

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Marion Anderson: But it's still written in a way that gives clear expectations to everybody. And what the process should be that they follow. So you know, I would like to think that in a, in a, in a

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Marion Anderson: common sense, based company, they have something that does protect them. That says, Hey, you know, if you entered into a relationship with a Co. Worker.

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Marion Anderson: we would ask, you know, congratulations first of all. But we would ask you to follow this process. And and you know that's there to protect everybody. So say, for example. And this has happened where relationships have gone set up, they've broken up, and it's become really acrimonious. Well, that causes this harmony in the workplace, and that's exactly what they're trying to avoid, right as well as any litigation. Obviously.

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Marion Anderson: so you know it. It. You do have that duty to remains. People to see. Look, you know, our values are less. Usually values will will reflect

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Marion Anderson: the situation where we're respectful of coworkers or whatever. However, you dress that up, and so should

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Marion Anderson: that situation goes south. And there there are poor behavior as well. They would be managed appropriately through. You know, the the companies.

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Marion Anderson: disciplinity procedures, or whatever. Right? So so really, Hrs, job or managers, job at that point is to, to, you know, say. Congratulations, beautiful thing! Here's the things you need to know. Here's the policy, you know. Hope it all goes well, if you know, and you only

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Danny Gluch: so, it's like you don't. You don't report. You have no say in someone's compensation, or promotion. You're probably not gonna be a part of a 3 60 review process for each other.

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Danny Gluch: work well together on the projects you're on

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Marion Anderson: and reminder. If this goes South, you are still expected to act as professionals collaborating on these same projects. If you're no longer romantically treat people like adults, right? And I think adults treat them like adults. And I think this situations, like in my career, where I've seen that not happen is in businesses not happen. Well.

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Cacha Dora: is in businesses where the business structure is built to not treat people like adults, right? Like we're a, and there are plenty of business structures that are like that, especially ones that are where they just have high levels. They're built to have high levels of attrition, not high levels of retention. And, you know, are seen as either latter career, stepping stones or things like that depending on the business. They've seen it done a couple of different ways.

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Cacha Dora: But when you don't treat people like adults, you don't have that framework right? Of like, yeah, congratulate people. Make sure that it does actually not impact the business. Remind them that if it goes great great, and if it. Doesn't. You still have a job to do like? And and we can't have you. We can't be pulling you from projects because you don't wanna be working with this person, but you also can't just pull them from projects because they are dating either. Exactly.

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Danny Gluch: It's the the reshuffling of oh, you can't work together on certain projects, because you're dating is like. well.

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Cacha Dora: let's just wait until it does go bad, and then we'll do that. Yeah, I feel like I would especially knowing, like

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Cacha Dora: a intentional hiring right if people end up having a relationship, and they've already hit all of those precursors, of not managing, not having a deciding say or factor in someone's career, progression, development, etc.

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Cacha Dora: So if they're on a project, well, then, how do you think they met each other? In the first place, probably on that project today's point earlier, right? Like, it's not going to change their work product. And it's not gonna sway. The final, this the the final output at that point.

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Cacha Dora: but adding weird tension where there isn't, could.

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Cacha Dora: you know?

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Marion Anderson: Yeah, a. A. And again, there's a lot of layers of complexity to this issue. And there's a lot of nuances right? This is different. And also, you know, weird

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Marion Anderson: situations can arise. For example, you know you could have a situation where you have

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Marion Anderson: a female employee? And maybe

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Marion Anderson: I don't know, and some form of external mail, maybe some sort of vendor, or whatever. And you know

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Marion Anderson: I've seen situations where there's been a a, a, a good working relationship between these 2 people. But the mail

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Marion Anderson: may have, you know, intentions towards the female. Nothing on professional, you know. They're polite, and they're gentlemanly, and all of that.

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Marion Anderson: But the female often is the one that gets the blame.

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Marion Anderson: It's not like we live in a misogynistic society or anything. And I've seen that happen. And you know that's a really difficult situation to navigate. And so the point I'm trying to make is that there's a lot of nuances to this right? We're we are oversimplifying it. But what is it we see? Manage it? Common sense, courage, compassion, and communicate right?

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Marion Anderson: 4 C's. I've never been more relevant. Use these tools to navigate a situation like this, and at the end of the day.

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Marion Anderson: if it's not causing any issues, and there's no risk to the business, keep your nose out, let them get on with it. Wish them well. Yes, also, if women file a complaint, take it seriously, absolutely complaint, take it serious it it truly does go both ways, because those those

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Cacha Dora: advances can happen on either side right like and it is

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Cacha Dora: at the end of the day. And I think, Miriam, I think you, you put it really well, right? Like it's. It is a very complex nuance situation. And in in a podcast. There's no way to unravel all of it right like this is not something you're ever gonna solve.

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Cacha Dora: but it is something just to to take

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Cacha Dora: to take seriously, but also like, don't take so seriously that like.

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Danny Gluch: you know what I mean? Yeah, don't take so seriously. You make some really crazy policies like you can't make eye contact for more than 3 s. Yeah, that was that Netflix, or something right? Like, there's some really crazy things out there that again, it's tried to like control like we can we can avoid this? A problem if we just are, are strangle, hold tight enough on people's behaviors. And it's like.

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Danny Gluch: then you're not really trusting people to be adults.

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Marion Anderson: Yes, I agree. But there is another side to that. We live in a litigious country, and it's seen when you read cases that have gone before tribunals. These moves come from. It doesn't come from necessarily wanting to control. It comes from risk mitigation.

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Marion Anderson: and I don't know the back story of why that decision was made, but I would bet my bottom dollar that there was some legal case. That was the foundation of that, and that's where it came from. If it's even true at all. I still don't know if that's another method or not. Right. But but you know, laughing aside like there's usually it's it's that thing off. What's the old adage? Closing the stable door after the horses bolted?

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Marion Anderson: Right? So, you know, taking a really tough remedy when probably you should have thought about something a bit sooner again. Don't know the ins and outs of that, but

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Marion Anderson: this is an impossible one to to solve. But at the end of the day human beings

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Marion Anderson: they fall in love, they get it on, they have romances.

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Marion Anderson: sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't. And just, you know. Just be smart about it, and don't be addicted.

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Danny Gluch: They'll be a dick on that note.

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Danny Gluch: Thank you. Everyone for listening happy. Valentine's Day. Be sure to subscribe. Follow all of those things. Leave a review. 5 stars. You can reach us at elephant@thefearlesspx.com.

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Danny Gluch: We will see you next time.