The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
Ghosted: The Vanishing Act of Recruiters with Hector Lujan Jr.
Welcome to "The Elephant in the Org," Episode 16, "Ghosting: The Vanishing Act of Recruiters." Join hosts Danny Gluch, Cacha Dora, Marion Anderson, and talent acquisition leader Hector Lujan Jr., as we explore the trend of ghosting in recruitment. This episode examines how this practice, originally from the dating world, affects both recruiters and candidates, impacting professional relationships and company reputations.
Our discussion with Hector Lujan Jr. delves into the drivers of ghosting, including communication breakdowns, generational differences, and the influence of technology. We provide an in-depth analysis of the issue and its implications in the recruitment world, offering insights from various perspectives.
This insightful episode is crucial for anyone involved in the modern job market, offering practical strategies for both recruiters and candidates to foster a transparent and respectful hiring process. Tune in for an honest conversation about one of today's most pressing workplace issues, and subscribe for more episodes that explore the unspoken dynamics of the workplace.
You can connect with Hector Lujan Jr. on Linkedin.
Link to episode show notes.
Connect with Us:
- Follow The Fearless PX on Linkedin at The Fearless PX
- Visit our website for more content and updates: https://www.thefearlesspx.com/
- Reach out to Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlessp.com
- You can find all episodes of The Elephant in the Org here.
We encourage you to subscribe and leave a review if you found this episode enlightening!
From April 2024, all new episodes of The Elephant In the Org will be posted bi-weekly.
Music Credits:
Opening and closing theme by The Toros.
Production Credits:
Produced by The Fearless PX, Edited by Marion Anderson.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are exclusively those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations’ official policy or position.
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Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the elephant in the org, everyone. I'm Danny Gluch. I'm joined by my Co. Hosts, Casha Dora and Marion Anderson. Hello, and today we have a guest with us. Hector Luhan, Jr.
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Danny Gluch: Is oh, yes, hello. Part. Hector is a forward thinking leader, with within the talent, acquisition. Space prides himself on cultivating in house partnerships, with rapidly growing and established organizations. Having spearheaded cutting edge recruitment initiatives across a variety of industries all over the globe. He's committed to delivering unparalleled stakeholder experiences along with his dedication to innovation and excellence.
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Danny Gluch: He hopes that his insights gained from his own experiences will broaden the horizons, challenge the status quo and break the stigmas around the collective journey of the hiring process. You didn't read that at all, did you? No, that's just I worked with him for like a month. And I was like, this is this guy that sounded like pure memory just shooting it out. Yeah. Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Anyways, today's eleventh in the org is not recruiting in general. It is woo ghost team.
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Danny Gluch: You're supposed to look scared. This is a podcast so even if you did. Most people wouldn't know anyways. So the idea of ghosting is going both ways, right recruiters and candidates. They're having this little dance almost like a relationship. And I, and I think that's kind of where the the jargon came from is ghosting in the dating world. So when you go on some dates, and all of a sudden there's just no more contact.
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Danny Gluch: And and that's what it is in the recruiting world, too, is one side or the other. Just like doesn't bother responding or or having any more communication, and you see it on Linkedin all the time about. No, don't do this. This is bad. Everyone who does this is awful, and
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Danny Gluch: I think one of the elephants in the room is that
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Danny Gluch: sometimes it's necessary, or maybe it's not always the worst thing in the world.
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Marion Anderson: I think that's nuanced right. I think there's situations where
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Marion Anderson: it happens and it and it can be justified in a way. And I think we can get into that. But there's also times where it's just absolutely unacceptable, right? I'm sure we've all had these stories. I know I have where you know headhunters reached out. They've pursued me. It's like a guy, pursued me. They've been relentless.
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Marion Anderson: I've eventually given in and spoken to them. We've had a conversation they've told me. Oh, my God, you're like the best ever. I can't wait to see you again. Slash can't wait to put you in front of our client.
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Marion Anderson: Get you all excited. You're like, oh, this could be the one, and then nothing rickets.
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Hector Lujan: The fact that all 4 of us have, I'm sure, stories deep down of these experiences makes me saddened, but also at the same time makes me
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Hector Lujan: notice that this is the new norm. This is a new practice that has come about probably within the last 10 years. I'm sure it was never nonexistent, but more prominent. I'd say the last 10 years.
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Marion Anderson: What do you think? What do you think? Kind of spurred that?
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Cacha Dora: Do you think if anything. or made it more acceptable?
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Cacha Dora: If you're seeing it as a trend?
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Hector Lujan: Yeah, seeing it as a trend, I think, because we've seen new waves of generations come into the workforce
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Hector Lujan: very different mindsets than previous ones, right? That it's a very different etiquette. It's a very different upbringing.
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And
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Hector Lujan: I think when companies have been adhering to these quote unquote practices for some time.
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Hector Lujan: it's
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Hector Lujan: was basically under the assumption that this generation was going to say, we're not going to take this right. It's a very rebellious kind of generation.
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Hector Lujan: And as a result it's led to animosity, I think, between employers and employees slash candidates. So
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Danny Gluch: so do you. Do you think that it's this has kind of always happened, but they're finally just like what? No, this this sucks we, you know, we went on a couple dates I had a couple interviews like, and just nothing. You told me I was one of your top. 2.
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Hector Lujan: Yeah, yeah. And II read an interesting article the other day. It was I forgot who published it. I think it was some recruiting publishing organization, and they had surveyed well over tens of thousands of of job seekers, and the results were
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Hector Lujan: were immense. They, I think they they had about 70% of all respondents agreed that ghosting is an acceptable part of the candidate experience when warranted. Right? So that get that begs the question. If
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Hector Lujan: you have 10 applicants in your candidate Pool. there's a chance that if you do something wrong as a hiring manager or as a recruiter, or then, as the employer. 7 out of 10 of your candidate pool is going to drop out
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Hector Lujan: right? So that that's an alarming statistic, I think, just kind of. Say, this is. This is to say, we need to really hone in on to the candidate journey.
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Marion Anderson: Hmm, hmm.
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Marion Anderson: I also think you've touched on it being a generational thing. But II do think as well. The advancement of technology has definitely contributed to this right, because back in the demo dark, dark past when you know I when I started working, certainly a paper application, and you stuck your resume. And then it went handy to add, and
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Marion Anderson: you know you're not gonna have the same volume then, that that you have now been applying for jobs is so much more accessible, like 3 clicks on Linkedin, and you've applied for something right? So easy apply. I almost expect to never hear back. Yeah.
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Hector Lujan: never.
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Danny Gluch: ever. You and I both. Yeah. so like that. That's like
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Danny Gluch: on on both both ends the like. You have 3,000 applicants for one position, right? No one has used to get 3,000 pieces of paper. I would hope that would be
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Danny Gluch: awful. But right? 3,000 is, that's a big stack of paper, as I'm visually showing on a podcast how big it is with my hands. I'm so good at this.
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Danny Gluch: I think both directions right like it's just such an overwhelming like. If you know you're one of 3,000. And they email you back like, Hey, would like you to do a screening call. You might just be like, Yeah, no, II wasn't that interested it was too easy to apply. And on the other side, wow! 3,000 of these people.
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Danny Gluch: you know what like. We've now brought it down to the final.
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Danny Gluch: Wha, what? What? Where do you even start to? You started at like 100, or is it 25? And then it's like 2,000 plus people. It's just like we're gonna send them the automated.
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Danny Gluch: Sorry we've moved on.
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Hector Lujan: Yeah. Well, I think that's a lot more accepting than just having no response at all. Right, like having these canned response from an automated system at least showcases that at least there's someone on the other end in an ideal world.
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Hector Lujan: Yeah, as as someone has worked in in ta for the last 7 years to which, as as a leader, I've had to recruit for both other teams and also for my own team. And
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Hector Lujan: one of the things that is really unique is that really, from that first recruit to that first recruiter screen from the application. We're only seeing about a 2 to 5% conversion, right from the total applicant pool that comes through within an
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Hector Lujan: certain amount of time. So when when you see these job postings go from 1,000 applications within a span of 6 h, right?
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Hector Lujan: It's
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Hector Lujan: most likely that hiring team is only gonna whittle it down to the initial just talking to the person. Just get that introductory phase
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Hector Lujan: within the first 50 people. If that right? And you, you cascade that upon itself you have recruiters that are managing 20 to 30 other requisitions
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Hector Lujan: with those same amount of volume. It's unlikely that you are. Gonna hear from someone right? Things are gonna slip through the cracks very naturally. Now, I guess this begs the question, is that acceptable? Or is that
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Hector Lujan: something that companies should be honing into a little bit more
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Cacha Dora: yeah, cause there's, you get the you have 2 things right you apply and you never hear.
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Cacha Dora: or you apply, and you get a rejection, or you apply, and you get an invitation for something right, but that
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Cacha Dora: I know that you mentioned earlier that 70% of candidates might drop out. But I feel like also, just from all of the things we've read, it feels like 70% of the time you're just never gonna hear. Anyway, you're not even gonna get the rejection. Yeah, yeah, you know, like, probably much higher. You're just not even gonna get the rejection right in in what the application process looks like, which I then just even thinking about what Marian was talking about, the advances of technology right like, how easy is it to click a button
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Cacha Dora: to be able to do that so that way, you know, organizations can avoid the ghosting experience on on either side, right? Not just the candidate experience, but also, you know the weight that it puts on you as someone in Ta.
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Danny Gluch: Well, II think one thing to to remember is, you know, the met. The like. The narrative on Linkedin is only bad recruiters goes. Only people who don't really care about the candidate experience. And I think in in just knowing Hector and things we've talked about that understanding that a lot of these recruiters might really care and be really good at their jobs, and care about all their candidates and their experience.
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Danny Gluch: but they have so much pressure to do, so much that they they just. They feel that like it's
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Danny Gluch: their their job. Their managers are almost requiring them to just like to to ghost like. I don't have time just to give the feedback on. Why, this person in my top 5 isn't being hired. I just need to to say whatever I don't have the time I'm gonna avoid that conflict. Hector, what are your thoughts on that?
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Hector Lujan: Yeah. And oftentimes
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Hector Lujan: Ta is seen as the messenger slash cultural ambassador of the organization right? They are a reflection of what the inner workings are, and sometimes Ta has a lot of pool. Right? If you're if you have a Chro or chief people officer at the seat of the table. You tend to have a lot more advocacy from what your priorities should be.
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Hector Lujan: But in most organizations that's not always the case. Right? We, as point of this, podcast. There's a lot of elephants in that room that have yet to be addressed. So as a result of that, I think a lot of recurs do feel the upward pressures, and their only directive is find the best person.
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Hector Lujan: potentially, even for the lowest cost, which is a whole other podcast I think we could talk about and and just find them as quickly as possible. We don't care how you do it or why you do it. We just want to find that person. So we can continue our business efforts.
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Hector Lujan: And in that vague directive. I think recruiters are abandoning certain practices because of that overwhelming pressure.
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Marion Anderson: Yeah, II think there's a couple of really big sort of variables, and that as well. One, you know the last 18 to 24 months Ta has been hit the hardest and in in terms of the people functions for lay offs right more so than many hrs pretty sucks as well. But and and you've been hit. But
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Marion Anderson: ta, absolutely, you know, pillaged so that's not gonna do a bunch for your engagement and psychological safety and make you wanna do your best work right? You're probably just sitting there checking over doing what you need to do, collecting your paycheck and keeping an eye out for something better when the market picks up. So there's that
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Marion Anderson: I think the other thing as well is that you know Danny used the number 3,000 3,000 applicants, I think, is very typical these days for fully remote roles or highly flexible roles, right? And
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Marion Anderson: II guess I'd love to hear from Hector. But I would imagine that you need to have the negotiation skills of someone at the UN these days when you're working with candidates because
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Marion Anderson: they're coming into these conversations like, yeah, I know the role says it's like, fully and in office. But you know, I would like to be hybrid or remote, or da da da, and they think that they've got the argument that's gonna help change the mind, and you know the recruiter, God bless them! Is the person stuck in the middle? Right? They have no control over it. They have no teeth. They they can say yes or no, and as you mentioned, you're the the envoy
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Marion Anderson: from, you know those above, so I'd love to know a little bit more about that, because that is such a new phenomena that we're all dealing with, but particularly our ta friends, are really at the hard end of that, in my opinion. And that's why I think around ghosting is stemming from a systematic issue, systematic, implying that it's around
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Hector Lujan: what the Co. What the company culture values right? I, as a ta person, I try to pry myself really around the center of transparency for both my internal and my external stakeholders. In these cases where and II experience ghosting even while I'm fully transparent about certain situations. But, as you said, they are the envoy to
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Hector Lujan: carrying out these these types of designated programs within the business. So
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Hector Lujan: oftentimes, I see a lot of people do try to negotiate. And I see a lot of people even see a job posting that this clearly says on site that they want to. They want it to be remote. And they're they're trying to find off kind of a way around that.
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Hector Lujan: and sometimes
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Hector Lujan: employers will get that message from the recruiters. But there's a little bit of a almost like a bait and switch tactic at play here.
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Hector Lujan: And that doesn't really resonate with the concept of being a transparent organization. Right? It's you had this initially outlined concept of it being a remote role
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Hector Lujan: or being a full on site role, whatever the case is. And now you're kind of going back on your word to the candidate
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Marion Anderson: salesman selling certain features. And then when you actually get the product, it's just not there like that's what
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Danny Gluch: that that that's unacceptable. If if I got the sense that a company, a recruiter, was doing that to me.
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Danny Gluch: II would probably just be like, I'm not ever messaging this person again. Yeah. And I saw I saw a recent job post on somewhere, I think, somewhere in the East Coast cause. It was posted as fully remote, and then reading on it, it said.
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Hector Lujan: It's fully remote, but you have to be within a 50 mile radius to this headquart office. So I'm thinking in my mind as potentially as a job seeker. I'm gonna be looking at that
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Hector Lujan: probably the wrong way and in the wrong way is the right way. In that that sense. You've been given the information at face value, and then you open your sandwich, and it's no longer the sandwich that you order with hybrid jobs, too, where it says hybrid. And you're like, Okay, cool. I mean, it literally says 4 or 5 days a week.
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Cacha Dora: That's not hybrid like at that point, like cause. If it says 4 or 5, you know that the organization's actually telling you 5 like with with an option, you might get like a day, a month or something. You know what I mean, where you're not coming in. Yeah, it's it's
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Cacha Dora: II think it's a way of depending on the
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Cacha Dora: called the organizational culture and the messaging for those job descriptions right of, we need the attention on the job post and someone's going to be willing to apply. But as the conversation continues, if you start it with one thing and end it with something else like in the job description, then
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Cacha Dora: it does that open the door for ghosting, because you haven't been transparent from the beginning.
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Hector Lujan: Imagine the dismay where you jump on the recruiter, call for the first time you you probe on that. You ask about this specific statement, and the recruiter feeds you. Misinformation, they say, actually add, it is so fully remote. We just prefer local candidates for X amount of Vs reason.
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Hector Lujan: Imagine the dismay it shows up on your first day, and you're being told by someone else that you never even met
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Marion Anderson: that. Oh, actually, we're going to be switching to hybrid within the next 2 to 3 months that
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Danny Gluch: that warrants, I think like, Hey, I'm gonna just withdraw myself from this whole situation. This is these are shady tactics. Yeah, well, so here's a question. And you know this. W. What we're essentially doing is like an ethical analysis of ghosting and part of like I've got my little like ethics. Whatever sense tingling of
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Danny Gluch: I I'm really getting a a feel, especially from from Marion's original story of the headhunter came to her.
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Danny Gluch: Oftentimes these recruiting agencies, these external right. Their goal is just to to sell right? It's it's it's really almost like that, you know, that numbers focused sales or biz dev department. That's like, look, we don't care what you tell them. Just get ink on paper.
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Danny Gluch: and is there a real difference between the external and the internal like? I totally know, external sort of recruiting agency recruiters? I just had an interaction with one who's super transparent, and and that's like so great to see. But it is there a difference
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Danny Gluch: between the the sort of agency recruiters and the In house recruiters in this like tendency to like, I really just need to push this through because I need.
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Danny Gluch: I need this person to get hired there. So I'm gonna fib a little bit on the policies or the pay band or Yada Yada. Yada.
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Hector Lujan: yeah, there's a huge distinct differences, cause it's all really about the skin in the game that you have. You're as an internal recruiter. Your Kpis are really centered around
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Hector Lujan: your hiring manager experiences. Your output is, you know, the number of hires that you're bringing in. How many offers are you closing? Whereas external recruiters are a lot more input driven? How many cold calls are you doing? How many clients are reaching out? And especially if you're in a full desk, right? You have to have building your own book of business.
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Hector Lujan: So they they deal, I think, in a lot more of a higher volume, I'd say.
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Marion Anderson: and
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Hector Lujan: by skin of the game, you know, they whether someone gets filled or not.
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Hector Lujan: Ghosting is, I think, is a lot more common on the external side. Right? Cause it. I've worked with both internal and external recruiters.
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Hector Lujan: But for different reasons. Right? I think, with agency recruiters. They're like you said they're just trying to find the best person and place them, because that's how they're going to earn their revenue. That's going to how they're going to win their business internal recruiters. However.
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Hector Lujan: you don't feel your spot. You're gonna be pretty much put on a pedestal of of.
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Hector Lujan: you know, in a way.
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Hector Lujan: So there's very different stakes involved with each of those.
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Marion Anderson: you know. I think that
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Marion Anderson: you know, I'm just reflecting, like all 3 of you really came to me through the efforts of an incredible external look at someone that that we know well, and who is ethical and diligent, and you know, does the right thing
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Marion Anderson: it sadly. They're a bit of a dying breed, really but
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Marion Anderson: the other thing that just occurred to me, because obviously the example that I gave at the beginning was very much around a, a, an executive level experience. Now
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Marion Anderson: I feel quite tone on this, because my, my my own ethics and models should see that everybody should have the same experience right with a recruiter.
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Marion Anderson: regardless of your seniority.
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Marion Anderson: A. A. And I do believe that. But there's also a part of me as well, which is like
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Marion Anderson: when you're a very senior level, you know, when you're going for those C sweet roles
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Marion Anderson: you, there's a reason why executive recruitment is a branch on its own away from just regular recruitment, because there's a different need that's required a different level of expectation. And really, this should be a bit more finest to it because you are interfacing with CEO Cfos boards. Right?
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Marion Anderson: One of the things that I've noticed. And again, this is an observation. This is not specific to
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Marion Anderson: You know, e any real evidence. But one of the things I've noticed is that again, in this mass exodus of of executive recruiters and te. You know, General ta of the business. You will have ta
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Marion Anderson: wearing all the hats and picking up a lot of that executive recruitment, and and I have seen first hand the gaps in the level of service that an exec would expect again. Not from a I'm an Exec. I deserve to get something better. But from an I actually need you to give me more to set me up for success for this role.
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Marion Anderson: And I think that actually tough, because it is a different skill set. You know, it's a very different mindset. And II think that maybe organizations are not necessarily understanding that. And that is really impacting the candidate experience. And really, the employer brand.
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Hector Lujan: it's astounding to hear that even ghosting is happening at the C-suite level. Right?
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Hector Lujan: Future leaders of your organization.
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Marion Anderson: yeah, especially Cpos, right? When ultimately they're the ones that would be your boss. You don't. Wanna you don't. Wanna you know, mess about with them. So I don't know. I just think that is, it's a little bit short sighted. There needs to be more
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Marion Anderson: thought put back into it, and ultimately I feel very protective of our ta colleagues. I think that. Yeah. there's a lot of people out there that are ambulance chasers, and they're not great right? But there's a lot of really incredible people out there that are so good at what they do and really cared about the candidate experience.
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Marion Anderson: And unfortunately, they're being set up to fail
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Marion Anderson: because they're seen as a very process, driven part of the function, and at the end of the day you can have the best Ets in the world, but you still need people to be able to make any sense of that. You know. I don't care what anyone says about bots and all of that crap. You need a person to make that experience human.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, you really do.
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Danny Gluch: That's a man, Marian, the I I'm trying to make sense of the difference between sort of executive recruitment and entry level mid level recruitment. Yeah, a lot of it. As far as like the the ghosting. It seems like a
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Danny Gluch: it's both qualitative and quantitative. Right on the quantitative side. There's just a lot more right? You're not getting 3,000, CEO, or you know, Cpo applicants just not happening. So like just that smaller ratio of Hey, we got 12 that we think are qualified 20 total, you know, whatever. It's probably actually more like 3 that are qualified out of 12 total.
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Danny Gluch: like none of those people should be ghosted. No, none of the 12 should be ghosted, and part of that is something that II have read which is new to me. Over the last year in the talent, acquisition. Space is the idea of like
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Danny Gluch: keeping your pipeline warm
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Danny Gluch: especially, for, like these these roles that like, hey? If this person's leaving, they might give 6 months. Notice not 2 weeks, right? Or if if you're parting ways, you're gonna give them 6 months, 9 months notice of, that's when you're no longer here. And and so you kind of always need these relationships. Ready in in case you need to like, hey.
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Danny Gluch: we've been talking for 2 years, off and on we have a role coming up. Let's let's you know, whatever.
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Danny Gluch: And II don't know how I feel about this. This sort of like, you know. Keep it on the warmer like th it. It feels like the the dating relation it along right? Like, yeah, like, where you're kind of like, there's a potential. Here's your carrot. There's a new once there, and Hector like by all means pitch in on this. But there is a difference between the stringing. Someone along, right or external succession.
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Marion Anderson: I know that. One, you know. Sometimes in a fast scaling organization, you don't necessarily have the internal talent ready in a succession plan. They're not ready now, and they're not even ready 6 months, one year. So you have to always be looking outside, also in a startup environment.
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Marion Anderson: To, to use a phrase that we've all heard many times what got you? The what got us here won't get us there right? So the people that can start off the journey are amazing, but they can only take you so far, and you do need to start
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Marion Anderson: future thinking and not be reactive. So you always have to source externally, even if you're promoting someone
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Marion Anderson: at some point, you're robbing Peter to pay Paul, you have to find someone from outside to grow your. So you don't want to be reactive, right? Your succession planning your talent, pipeline, that you have a gap. Well, that's especially if it's a critical role as a massive Us to the business. So you always want to be having those external kind of eyes on the ball to see who's out there and who would be
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Marion Anderson: be a good fit. The other thing is that there are companies out there
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Marion Anderson: work for them where I went through 9 interviews for one role, very prestigious tech company and that was over a period of
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Marion Anderson: 2 years. And in fact, the reason I know, and you can go. And I agree to an extent, however.
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Marion Anderson: that was actually not a waste of time, because by having that many interactions.
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Marion Anderson: I was offered 4 or 5 different opportunities. In that time they were the right one, and so we were able to find the right seat on the bus for me rather than me joining it, not being that I see on the bus and me exiting, and again, a senior level. That's an expensive thing to do, right? So there are different ways to look at it. I think it's very much about how the ta handles it, and I'd love to hear from Hector his thoughts on all of that's the question. I think, most
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Hector Lujan: con that more common. I'd say that all recruiters loathe is hearing from the hiring manager. This candidate was great. But let's keep them warm and interview another 5 candidates right? To to cautious point earlier. It's stringing someone along, and it's the equivalent of basically holding your own black book of names. Right? It's your
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Marion Anderson: good enough to consider in my dating list. But you're we're we want. I want to see other people. Before I make another decision.
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Hector Lujan: That's to go back. There's point there. There's a huge, distinct difference between actively recruiting for position and doing more relationship building to build out your own network right?
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Hector Lujan: of. And and this is very prominent, especially at the Executive search level.
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Hector Lujan: The recruiter is really only as good as the relationships that they build with their their talent right? Because they have to go per to company, to company and and pitch
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concept of this person's profiling
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Hector Lujan: my 2 cents. And and specifically around the the topic of
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Hector Lujan: you know, just more around longer term relationship, driven recruitment.
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Hector Lujan: A 100% agree right. But I think we we live in an era where every company is now considered fast growing right. We we've seen how much Gdp has grown over the last 3 years since the pandemic happened right? We went from a huge dip spike in unemployment and a huge dip in
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Hector Lujan: to pay. We're growing at 150% as an economy every year, right? That that upwards pressure for some companies to say grow at all costs.
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Hector Lujan: It was very, very prominent. Right. So then, relationship driven recruitment or longer term recruitment.
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Hector Lujan: pretty much is done away with right you. They were just trying to find turnkey candidates that we can kind of fill in these spots, and there was a plethora of them at 1 point. But now, when we had that great resignation that occurred, there was noblest. No one existed. Right? You you had to do a lot more of that relationship-driven recruitment again.
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Hector Lujan: So there is a value of that right. And I I've had an experience where one of the recruiters that I first started working with in the tech world. She told me a great example of that, too, where one of the engine Staff Senior Staff Engineers that had applied for one of her previous roles, I think, for like a year prior they weren't quite fit or bold to that. Yeah, they they were really good. They had worked at a really prestigious
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Hector Lujan: tech company
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Hector Lujan: what they were trying to achieve as a business wasn't in the right time yet fast forward. A year from that point on
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Hector Lujan: she maintained the entire relationship. They had pretty much bi-weekly lunches because she knew that this was a really really strong talent. and it got to a point where the head of engineering was like.
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Hector Lujan: we have a big project coming up specifically within our logistics department. This person's background is actually a really good fit. Are you still engaged with them? So that proactive recruitment that that recruiter did.
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Hector Lujan: It was just immediately they didn't even have to interview. We knew their capabilities. It was just, Hey, that we're gonna pitch you this idea, do you wanna come on board with us finally? And of course they said, yes, so
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Hector Lujan: I think that that happens still off so sometimes. But I think we we're also driven by. Just let's find someone right now. Can they start to someone, even out of work that we could just like start right away. It's that speed to execution, right? That you just like and point earlier talking about being proactive versus reactive in
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Cacha Dora: in the talent space that relationship is obviously being proactive versus the we need. We need butts and seats if you will, and that is
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Cacha Dora: such a different experience for you as someone in Ta, and it's a totally different experience on the candidate end. And I think that worked out because
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Hector Lujan: that that recruiter was embodied into the business context, right? And I think, unfortunately, as ta, because of that lack of something at the table or seen as more process driven, we don't always get that business context. We only know the shortsightedness of this immediate vacancy, and that's the reactive component of it.
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Danny Gluch: I wanted to circle back. Cause II love that story that's like a Yay flowery. This hopefully comes out around Valentine's Day story. I wanted to go back to
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Danny Gluch: to like ghosty. And how is it sometimes like, just like, Oh, no. We had an interview with that person, and I never want to interact with them again. Maybe they said something misogynistic or really off color during an interview. And and you just you you kind of even wrap up that interview a little earlier than planned. And and you just
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Danny Gluch: you know we're done is like it's asking a lot for a a recruiter, then to send a message that is somehow like.
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Danny Gluch: you know, highlighting their like personal shortcomings like you. Didn't you know you made this comment. We find that unaccept like, or do you just not
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Danny Gluch: talk to them ever again.
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Hector Lujan: Yeah, I mean. I'm curious to hear other people's thoughts, but II have have some ideas around it.
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Marion Anderson: I mean.
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Marion Anderson: I had. The candidate
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Marion Anderson: did some fairly unacceptable things in the interview, and I was too young, and an experience and lack confidence to deal with it. So I just wrapped up the interview early and moved on. Where is now? You know, a situation like that comes up again. It's nuanced. Right depends on the the situation. But you know I have been in situations where the candidate has
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Marion Anderson: said some things that are fairly unacceptable and and don't align with the values of the organization. I think, Hector, you know, a particular example might be to fit into back in the day. And a. A. And I've called out, and I've said, you know what I've really enjoyed meeting with you. However, I just wanna share with you that when you said this
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Marion Anderson: it doesn't align with the values of our organization. And so for that reason I won't be moving this forward. But I really wish you well. So I think it's important that we do have a responsibility to get feedback where we can. But II certainly do call things out now, but I think that's because I'm more mature at all that experience, and it doesn't really uncomfortable. like
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Marion Anderson: skill, set competency of leaning into conflict and being able to resolve conflict and take that on is really a core competency for for talent, acquisition for anyone who's involved in the recruitment process. Any manager, any hide in manager. Everybody needs to have the skill set. Hector, what do you think?
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Hector Lujan: Yeah, no, you. I'm glad you said it because you took the words right out of my mouth. It comes back around the figure conflict right? And, Danny, you you hit it perfectly as well. It is a core competency. In my opinion, it's not just recruiting anyone in the business world, right? It's you know, or we shy away from these conversations, I think the more
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Hector Lujan: more cumbersome, and makes things later on for everyone. And and to Marion's point, I think most organizations are are going to shy away from giving feedback, and the recruiter as a result that has to adhere to that process, and that that guideline but in the moment feedback that Marion gives is very viable, I think, to that candidate, right? What they do with it is their prerogative. As a recruiter. I've had to deliver very difficult feedback as well
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Hector Lujan: to what I can share.
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Hector Lujan: I've worked in organizations where they said no feedback at all, and I've had worked at organizations that say, give feedback at your discretion, but we want you to be accountable for that right? So it was a very different mature format. I don't think in that scenario ghosting calls for is it? Is any call for acceptance? Right? Yes, the recruiter. And as the employer have the responsibility to at least to deliver at a minimum the news of we're not moving forward. We've already engaged with that person.
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Marion Anderson: And then, secondly, it's just really your at your discretion, at your judgment. Call to conflict of this is what occurred, and this is how we want to. I think I think, that that conversation about to get feedback to not give feedback? That is the question is a whole episode on it. So when things are changing and evolving. And I'd love to revisit that at some point.
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Danny Gluch: I'm really interested in your thoughts. Caution on the development cause like your your entry level recruiters not gonna have the same tolerance and skills of taking on that conflict head-on like, how do you see that? As like a growing skill set in developing that. I'm really glad you asked. That's exactly
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but it's really important, because I think in most organizations you're
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Cacha Dora: I'm gonna call them what your your first time hiring managers, your entry level hiring managers who maybe they've been promoted vertically right in organization. It's the first time they're either having to replace someone or open a new head count. They haven't had this interview experience outside of their own professional interviews that they've held. So, being on the other side of that table.
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Proverbial table a lot of times. It's via zoom now.
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Cacha Dora: But those interviewing skills they only know from one side, and so, having to help them understand? Not just okay. You know, you're not looking always for that air Co organizational fit, right? How do you train people to look at their teams
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Cacha Dora: to understand where the gaps in their teams are. How do you fill the gap in your team and then on top of it? How do you then elevate the people on your team with the person you're filling in that gap and and that level of you know we talk about it a lot. But assessment happens all over the place in a business right? Like it's not just
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Cacha Dora: what you do 2 times a year. It happens when you are looking in your organization, in your team, your little pod that you have, or your big pod. If you're a director, and you've got, like, you know, a lot of people underneath you.
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Cacha Dora: But in order to help people understand what they need to hire for you have to be able to know what you need. and then, on top of it, being able to help them with language, help them understand their actual job descriptions. And the thing that I think
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Cacha Dora: based on. Even my own experience in in moving up in in the world is a lot of times. Hiring managers will naturally just defer the hard things back to ta, because they don't right like going back to that conflict side. Right? They they don't want, and they don't know how, and because they don't know how they don't want to really stretch themselves to experience that further. And
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Cacha Dora: I think that's a big, honest problem, and probably a big contributor to what ghosting it happens to people passing off of like accountability if you will. Yeah.
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Marion Anderson: yeah. Teflon, not my, not not my responsibility.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. I mean, that's that. That's such a good point. Kasha is some. Sometimes the ghosting comes from a place of like early development. And that's
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Danny Gluch: is. is is that okay?
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Danny Gluch: Like, is, is that just a part of the the growing pains, like early young Marion, young Hector, Kasia! Danny like Oh, wow! Looking back 5 years ago, I wish I would have given that person feedback. But I didn't. I wasn't ready yet, and I am now like is is that can we say, that's okay, or should you not get into ta unless you're like
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Danny Gluch: capable of owning it like like Hector said. At that level of I'm owning the feedback I'm giving.
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Danny Gluch: and I'm going to do it when when it's appropriate.
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Hector Lujan: Yeah, I mean, it's it's all depends on really in the person.
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Hector Lujan: I don't think I don't think there's a right or wrong answers to this.
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Hector Lujan: I think the act of ghosting as a result of that, that naivety is.
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Hector Lujan: I think, someone would have enough common sense to say, Hey, I probably just
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Hector Lujan: should not avoid this person, but at the same time, in that same token.
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Hector Lujan: I think if they're not comfortable to deliver that feedback.
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Hector Lujan: I'm gonna say, say, the Hr answer is, don't deliver that feedback right? Because you don't want to put yourself into a position where you're jeopardizing.
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Hector Lujan: not just, of course, the organization, but also jeopardizing your relationship with that candidate. Right? If they ask you about it. Hopefully, you have at least some sort of support system in your business that you can actually just say, Hey, let me take it back with the team to see how I can give you feedback. So there are proactive things that you can do after that initial conversation email, or whatever and don't be afraid to ask for help
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Hector Lujan: and ask for other.
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Marion Anderson: That psychological safety is critical, though right? So if you work in an organization or within a team within an organization where you have that shared sense of psych safety, you're going to be able to do that. You're going to be able to say, Hey, do you know what this candidates about
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Marion Anderson: twice. Quite frankly, I'm struggling. Can someone help me out? And that's fine, right? If you're working in an organization which
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Marion Anderson: doesn't have that as part of his culture that more old school you're less likely to be able to say that. So you're either just gonna completely avoid it or you're gonna make a dog standard of it right? And potentially cause further issues down the line. And then be held accountable for that. And I think for me. That's the thing that's most unforgivable of all.
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Marion Anderson: Honestly, I think
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Marion Anderson: I need total no evidence to back this up. But I don't think companies see.
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Marion Anderson: training hiring skills is particularly important. There seems to be this assumption that when you join a company you magically know how to recruit you magically know how to interview
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Marion Anderson: II learned on the fly hands up, and II agree, and I had some being credible mentor. So II learned from the best. But you know, I learned on the fly. And
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Marion Anderson: that's a really uncomfortable experience. Because you learn by screwing up basically. And and these are situations where you shouldn't be that vulnerable right? Because these are people's lives that you're messing with.
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Marion Anderson: So II think that there's a huge amount of yes point one finger forward that that recruiter for not doing a good job at point to back to yourself and see what did we do to support them? And I think most companies. Don't think about that
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Danny Gluch: when Hector was talking, and and then you followed up, I was really thinking about that C-suite level, the executive recruiting and the ghosting and the inability to give feedback at that level
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Danny Gluch: is, were you just dealing with someone where feedback was? It was on them? If it was gonna happen. And they're just unprepared and unsupported to do it.
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Danny Gluch: And I feel like.
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Danny Gluch: because those those are really important feedback moments. Because if they did deliver it wrong. You're not
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Danny Gluch: keeping that warm in case you want that person on your executive team later, if you deliver that feedback poorly, it's over over and they're gonna talk to the rest of their friends. They're gonna talk to everyone in their network and say, like, it's that bad promoter, good promoter moment, right? Like it will be.
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you know.
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Marion Anderson: Stay away from that company, Cpos and Cfos and Ceos. We're all in groups. We're all in networking groups. We all talk to each other right? And it just takes one bad experience to really screw up that equity within the employer. Brand. So I, whilst I absolutely understand the need to cost, cut and and be.
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Marion Anderson: you know, careful with resources, especially when we're in such difficult times.
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Marion Anderson: These are things that you cannot put at risk
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Marion Anderson: with a really poor candidate. Experience. Any level is bad. Anyone can go in glass door, go go fish, ball and and create havoc right? And that's damaging enough. But the more senior you get, the bigger the impact and the more damage that's it's sustainable. So
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Hector Lujan: I don't know. It makes me uncomfortable. And what's interesting to note is, I mean, I've seen a trend of a lot of commentary around Linkedin. And I get it, most of us objective, but when you start to read it between the lines, you see, the common threads between. All of it is that a lot of these organizations most recent times have been cutting their best recruiters, their top ta people. And they're really
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Hector Lujan: to keep people on firmware cost perspective. But also who's just going to keep the lights on right. We don't care. We don't care about anything of that right now. Our goal is just to obviously maximize shareholder value.
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Hector Lujan: And what I've noticed is that as a result of that, that has influx a lot of people into the job market. And in in that job search there's a lot of commentary about. There's been a just a
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Hector Lujan: a perplexing amount of ghosting. There's been a perplexing amount of hey? II made it through a final round interview, and people are sharing their stats. They had maybe over 2,000 applications, and they did 175 final round interviews, and got ghosted over 90 times to imagine you you meet with these people who we were potentially gonna work with.
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Hector Lujan: And you're being ghosted more than half the time
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Hector Lujan: at that stage. Right? It's just. It's unfathomable to me, because that
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Hector Lujan: give me indication that these companies have cut off that quality of service altogether.
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Marion Anderson: Yeah. And on the candidate side, you know.
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Marion Anderson: if you've been out of work for a period of time, you'd obviously stress as right. You're thinking about how you're gonna put food in the table and keep the lights on. And so you are
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Marion Anderson: churning through so many job applications and just push, push, push, push. and you know it's so destroying. When
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Marion Anderson: you think that you're moving, you know the dates going well, and you're gonna get asked out again. And then, you know, crickets right? That's just absolutely so destroying. So I think there needs to be a hell of a lot more compassion all around, or with every stakeholder than this process, because everyone's really
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Marion Anderson: the victim of a really difficult set of circumstances. But there needs to be more compassion. All
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Cacha Dora: for candidates, for sure. Candidates are really getting a rough rate. Yeah. And I think it's good that people are making those post sector. I think it's important because I think it a kind of showcases when when people say like, Oh, like, just apply for a job. It's not that hard. And it's like this job market's one of the hardest ones we've seen in a long time, because of
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Cacha Dora: all of these factors, right? Cause of not having enough people in the space to handle the inbound on ta to not actually having, like, maybe, the right understanding between your hiring manager and the process. And now you're cutting corners because you're understaffed, based on the sheer influx of applications that you have. And then also, like Marion, just pointed out to the fact that
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Cacha Dora: applying for roles it when you're doing it for so long, and I've seen those posts that you're talking about where people are like I've been out of work for since, like July of last year, or whatever the case may be. And like, here's all my stats like it's really hard on on people emotionally, and a lot of those posts there. The amount of responses like, you know, it's always that thing. Right. Go to the comments.
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Cacha Dora: Those comments are a lot of people empathizing, aligning, trying to share to their network, because it's pulling at their heartstrings because they feel for them like it's
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Danny Gluch: the those posts like they. I think I think they hit most people right right where they should. Yeah, yeah, I've had 2, 9 month long job searches and starting another one hopefully, not 9 months, though. So there's there's a lot of people have that right? There's a lot of empathy out there, a lot of compassion for for job seekers and hopefully recruiters. After this they have a tough job, and and II hope people who aren't as familiar with that can can see that. And so Hector W. Trying to wrap up
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Danny Gluch: what are some of your top tips, and that we didn't prep you on this one? So on the fly. What are some of your top tips to just lessen ghosting. Both, you know, as a job seeker get goes to less or as recruiter to not ghost as much. What are just some top tips
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Hector Lujan: that people can do. Organizations can do. Yeah, I would say, lean into your tech, you know, lean into your organizational ability right? Hopefully.
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Hector Lujan: where, if you've got to a point where you are a recruiter. You have some of this level of organizational skill.
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Hector Lujan: But leverage your tech right leverage your ats explore whatever capabilities that they have to really engage with your talent pool right? Do really a sense check as well as your moral compass, as
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Hector Lujan: if if I was a job seeker if I was in those shoes. However, I want to be treated right. It's the golden rule that we all try to live by treat others as if you would treat yourself. and I would say.
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Hector Lujan: Don't be afraid to ask for help. If you have that psychological safety in your organization. Don't be afraid to take advantage of that right to ask for assistance along the way.
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Hector Lujan: Especially with your high managers, you know. Fine fine tune what it is that they're looking for and making sure that your
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Hector Lujan: taking the full ownership, and that I think that's that'll be the last thing I can leave with with it. Take ownership because this is a reflection of your work, and you never know who you're going to be coming across paths with.
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Hector Lujan: That person that you ghost may be your future employer. You never know right and
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Hector Lujan: but don't think of it as what's in it for you think about about, how can I help those around me? So that selfless mindset, I think, is really what makes a the difference between a okay recruiter versus a phenomenal one.
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Danny Gluch: Hmm! And I think it would make it better for everyone. That sounds fantastic. Thank you so much, Hector. This was such a good conversation. I know I learned a lot. I hope everyone listening learned a lot. Thank you all for listening. We will see you again next Wednesday every Wednesday. Be sure to like subscribe. Follow that way. You don't have to like log in and click links. It's just downloads to whatever device you're listening on leave like.
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Danny Gluch: and 5 star reviews. Those are great written reviews. If you write a review, gonna read it, that's my promise.
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Danny Gluch: and then you can contact us at elephant@thefearlesspx.com. Thank you, everyone. Thanks again, Hector.
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Hector Lujan: Thank you all.
