The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
The Feedback Failure: Why Most Companies Suck at Performance Conversations with Greer Procich
Are your performance conversations falling flat? You're not alone. In this episode of The Elephant in the Org, hosts Danny Gluch, Marion Anderson, and Cacha Dora are joined by special guest Greer Procich to explore why most companies struggle with effective performance management and continuous feedback.
Discover the key barriers holding organizations back from meaningful performance conversations, such as lack of manager training, outdated annual review processes, and the need for better integration into daily workflows. Learn why leadership buy-in and accountability are critical for creating a feedback-rich culture.
Greer shares her insights on the importance of equipping managers with the tools and skills they need to coach their teams and provide constructive feedback. The group discusses strategies for making feedback a habit and shifting the focus from evaluation to professional development.
Join the conversation as the hosts and Greer offer practical advice for HR professionals looking to be strategic partners in implementing effective performance management practices. Whether you're a leader aiming to boost team performance or an employee seeking more meaningful feedback, this episode is packed with valuable takeaways.
Don't miss this engaging discussion on transforming performance conversations in your organization! Subscribe to The Elephant in the Org podcast for more episodes exploring the challenges and opportunities in modern workplaces. Together, let's create a more positive, engaging, and growth-oriented culture.
This episode's show notes can be found here
You can connect with Greer here.
Connect with Us:
- Follow The Fearless PX on Linkedin at The Fearless PX
- Visit our website for more content and updates: https://www.thefearlesspx.com/
- Reach out to Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlessp.com
- You can find all episodes of The Elephant in the Org here.
We encourage you to subscribe and leave a review if you found this episode enlightening!
From April 2024, all new episodes of The Elephant In the Org will be posted bi-weekly.
Music Credits:
Opening and closing theme by The Toros.
Production Credits:
Produced by The Fearless PX, Edited by Marion Anderson.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are exclusively those of the hosts and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations’ official policy or position.
00:00:03.630 --> 00:00:11.559
Danny Gluch: Welcome to the elephant in the org. Everyone brought to you by the fearless people experience. I'm Danny Glutch, and I'm joined by my co-hosts. Koshadora.
3
00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:12.380
Cacha Dora: Blue.
4
00:00:12.380 --> 00:00:13.810
Danny Gluch: And Marion Anderson.
5
00:00:13.810 --> 00:00:14.550
Marion: Hello!
6
00:00:14.940 --> 00:00:21.599
Danny Gluch: And today we have a very special guest. Grier Prosich, welcome to the podcast Greer.
7
00:00:21.850 --> 00:00:24.859
Greer Procich: Hi, Danny, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
8
00:00:24.860 --> 00:00:28.269
Danny Gluch: Awesome. Well, today's elephant in the org
9
00:00:28.450 --> 00:00:44.610
Danny Gluch: is performance conversations. And this is a really big one. And I know it's something you're really passionate about. So tell us a little bit about yourself, a little background, a little what you're passionate about what you're doing now and then we'll jump into the conversation.
10
00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:52.360
Greer Procich: Yeah. So first, st thanks for having me so excited to be here, this is actually my first, st podcast ever. So I
11
00:00:52.690 --> 00:00:53.150
Greer Procich: so.
12
00:00:53.150 --> 00:00:56.057
Danny Gluch: Need, a sounder or something for someone's 1st podcast.
13
00:00:56.380 --> 00:01:01.279
Greer Procich: Excited, but it's with you all that's for sure. It makes me very comfortable and feel safe. I was about.
14
00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:05.289
Marion: David, popping your podcast. Cherry. But then that sounds really an approach.
15
00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:09.330
Cacha Dora: Definitely sounds like well placed for an Hr. Kind of conversation. I like it.
16
00:01:09.330 --> 00:01:12.420
Marion: You know me, I'm the least Hr, Hr person, that is.
17
00:01:12.420 --> 00:01:13.310
Cacha Dora: I know. Yeah.
18
00:01:13.310 --> 00:01:40.639
Greer Procich: Oh, yeah, I used to call myself Hr, cause I was fake hr so I'm with you on that one. Please take it. Take it on with it. I love it. But I'm obsessed with performance management. My career has been wild. I started in restaurants and hospitality transition to tech. But I've always been focused on people, their growth and how they show up to work. And so right now, I'm working with a couple of
19
00:01:40.780 --> 00:02:02.360
Greer Procich: former colleagues from a previous role and an additional. You know, lovely person. There's 4 of us, and we're trying to make continuous feedback better. We're really trying to focus on moving away from evaluation, moving towards alignment and ensuring that there's no surprises and and feedback. So whatever we can do to make sure that people know where they are. That's what we're focused on.
20
00:02:03.250 --> 00:02:04.280
Marion: Wow!
21
00:02:04.520 --> 00:02:05.386
Danny Gluch: Yeah, that's.
22
00:02:05.820 --> 00:02:07.630
Cacha Dora: That sounds so powerful.
23
00:02:07.630 --> 00:02:09.250
Danny Gluch: It really does. It's that.
24
00:02:09.250 --> 00:02:11.027
Greer Procich: It's very complicated.
25
00:02:11.620 --> 00:02:28.560
Danny Gluch: If that works, it's really gonna change a lot of lives for people, because that is such an important part of just sort of workplace experience and how you get feedback. And I think it, it really transitions well into this idea of like the feedback paradox, where it's so important.
26
00:02:28.900 --> 00:02:32.139
Danny Gluch: But it's so hard to do. Well.
27
00:02:33.170 --> 00:02:33.880
Greer Procich: What, what.
28
00:02:33.880 --> 00:02:41.170
Danny Gluch: What are some of the big barriers you think exist for doing performance conversations? Well, right now.
29
00:02:41.760 --> 00:02:54.740
Greer Procich: Where do I start? There's about a billion and a half of them. So I think the main one is, people don't know how to give feedback. People don't know how to share constructive, positive.
30
00:02:54.770 --> 00:03:19.700
Greer Procich: negative feedback with people. It's not safe. There's retaliation that happens, and there's no training that happens on it. You know. I think we have to focus on how adults learn. They learn by doing and getting feedback, and we don't do that very well. If you haven't noticed in the corporate world. And so we're really not meeting people where they're at, we're not giving them the opportunity to grow because we're not teaching them
31
00:03:19.700 --> 00:03:26.249
Greer Procich: how to get there. So if you can imagine you've had a manager who has never given you good feedback.
32
00:03:26.320 --> 00:03:48.529
Greer Procich: that's what you're going to internalize. You're going to mimic those behaviors. And so it just kind of cascades down. If you aren't getting it from the top, you're definitely not going to get it at the bottom, and it's nobody's fault. But you have to put that intention behind giving feedback. So I definitely think we're doing people a disservice by not giving them the tools that they need to exchange feedback.
33
00:03:48.530 --> 00:04:09.549
Greer Procich: but also in that same vein. Tooling is very bad, right? So we have all of these programs and processes that are set up around annual feedback. And then we're asking ourselves, why are people not exchanging feedback continuously. And it's like, well, because it's really fucking hard to do that. And so we have to figure out, how are we supporting them to get there?
34
00:04:09.550 --> 00:04:15.620
Greer Procich: And we're not doing that. We're just giving them these expectations without giving them the viewpoint of how to get there, which.
35
00:04:15.620 --> 00:04:16.070
Danny Gluch: Yeah.
36
00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:17.429
Greer Procich: That doesn't work for anybody.
37
00:04:17.430 --> 00:04:32.670
Danny Gluch: Well, it's not even not. It's not even that they lack the viewpoint of how to get there. We've given them the wrong tool. It's like, Hey! Why hasn't this like nice sushi been cut and prepared? Well, and all? The only tool we've given them is a sledgehammer.
38
00:04:32.670 --> 00:04:33.090
Greer Procich: Yep.
39
00:04:33.090 --> 00:04:39.850
Danny Gluch: Right. And the sledgehammer is this big, heavy, 360 review annual Review. Whatever sort of like.
40
00:04:39.880 --> 00:04:51.309
Danny Gluch: you know, flavor they've chosen. It's big and heavy and burden some, and then we're expecting this like finely cut, continuous sort of agile thing. But, Mary, and you're dying to to say something.
41
00:04:51.310 --> 00:04:57.140
Marion: Yeah, because I think that there's a layer that we're that we're
42
00:04:57.240 --> 00:04:58.660
Marion: missing here.
43
00:04:59.070 --> 00:05:11.330
Marion: even in organizations that do prioritize the teaching of a feedback mechanism, whatever that might be. You know, Kasha and I've had an experience where we've worked for a company that
44
00:05:11.390 --> 00:05:25.099
Marion: that prioritized it on day one which was actually incredible. Because, you know, from the get go. Oh, they mean business with this. This is important, and it features heavily in the organizational culture here.
45
00:05:25.410 --> 00:05:26.540
Marion: and that's
46
00:05:26.570 --> 00:05:32.309
Marion: that was really good. But it still felt.
47
00:05:32.736 --> 00:05:34.570
Marion: times that you were given
48
00:05:34.580 --> 00:05:38.119
Marion: a 10 year old. The keys to the Ferrari.
49
00:05:39.280 --> 00:05:40.480
Marion: And it.
50
00:05:41.450 --> 00:05:49.360
Marion: and in some respects it also felt performative. So it felt dangerous, and it felt performative when it worked. It worked well right.
51
00:05:49.480 --> 00:05:56.429
Marion: but because, for many reasons, you know, it was maybe not
52
00:05:56.890 --> 00:06:05.359
Marion: deeply understood on a deep level, and it didn't necessarily have the impact that it could have had. And so
53
00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:08.330
Marion: the the thing in there is that
54
00:06:08.510 --> 00:06:10.809
Marion: the organisational culture
55
00:06:12.320 --> 00:06:24.779
Marion: ergo, the the sense of psychological safety is absolutely critical to all of that, because then, when you have the psychological safety, then if you fuck it up.
56
00:06:24.860 --> 00:06:29.770
Marion: you're going to learn from it. But when you don't have that, you are then doing it.
57
00:06:29.870 --> 00:06:34.940
Marion: and it then becomes performative. Right? So it's a much
58
00:06:35.330 --> 00:06:42.540
Marion: bigger issue, I think, than just having a good mechanism, because you can have the best mechanism in the world.
59
00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:45.270
Marion: but if the rest of it isn't there.
60
00:06:45.340 --> 00:06:46.980
Marion: and people don't get it.
61
00:06:46.980 --> 00:06:48.260
Danny Gluch: Yeah, yeah.
62
00:06:48.495 --> 00:06:50.850
Marion: You know. I banged up Ferrari against a wall quite.
63
00:06:50.850 --> 00:07:07.529
Cacha Dora: I think, and I think to marry into your point, and and to Griers as well. Right when we're talking about how people poorly give feedback, and then how they can give feedback. Well, in my experience, I've also seen it kind of bucketed into. Do you give technical feedback? Well, or do you give behavioral feedback.
64
00:07:07.530 --> 00:07:08.660
Marion: Very well.
65
00:07:08.660 --> 00:07:26.069
Cacha Dora: Because the technical, I feel like most people can just be really like, put on an instructor hat right? And like they're able to give technical feedback on like this is how you design this or this is how you. This is a how to right like they can put on their how to feedback to correct someone who did it wrong.
66
00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:40.139
Cacha Dora: But behavior people don't know how right. And I think that's that's where when people try and give behavioral feedback when they're really a 10 year old with the keys, the Ferrari that's where they create workplace trauma, and they do it unintent. Well.
67
00:07:40.210 --> 00:07:42.220
Cacha Dora: hopefully, unintentionally.
68
00:07:42.450 --> 00:07:46.195
Cacha Dora: I'm sure there's some people who feel otherwise. We're not gonna talk about them today, but
69
00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:52.578
Cacha Dora: you know what I mean, but because, like they do it because they think they're right.
70
00:07:52.890 --> 00:07:53.290
Greer Procich: Hard way.
71
00:07:53.290 --> 00:07:54.909
Cacha Dora: Is the right way.
72
00:07:54.910 --> 00:08:12.050
Greer Procich: Yeah. Well, what I'm hearing from you, too, is, there's really a lack of accountability when it comes down to feedback as well like, say whatever you want. I I cannot tell you guys how much I legitimately hate the concept of radical candor because it gives you a past to be an asshole.
73
00:08:12.050 --> 00:08:12.400
Marion: Yeah.
74
00:08:12.400 --> 00:08:17.149
Greer Procich: I said, I said it. I say, I was being radically, radically candid, and it's like, well.
75
00:08:17.150 --> 00:08:19.539
Danny Gluch: The the keys to the Ferrari right.
76
00:08:19.540 --> 00:08:20.290
Greer Procich: Right.
77
00:08:20.290 --> 00:08:21.219
Cacha Dora: Yeah, me to handle my.
78
00:08:21.220 --> 00:08:26.990
Danny Gluch: Much deeper understanding. Because if you just read the title, just boom, here's a license to be an asshole.
79
00:08:26.990 --> 00:08:45.150
Greer Procich: Exactly exactly. And then, if that's something that comes down from the top again, it's this behavior that people think. Oh, well, this is what success looks like. And then they emulate those behaviors. And now you've got this toxic environment that exists around performance. So yeah, everybody has a role in it.
80
00:08:45.150 --> 00:08:52.139
Danny Gluch: Yeah, so I wanna to really dig into the this accountability idea, because on one hand.
81
00:08:52.170 --> 00:08:59.600
Danny Gluch: feedback is how we hold people accountable to a quality of work and and excellence. But also
82
00:08:59.950 --> 00:09:10.079
Danny Gluch: there needs to be something or some way to hold people accountable for the kind of feedback they're giving, and so much of what? What Marion was talking about, where, when it becomes performative.
83
00:09:10.500 --> 00:09:25.049
Danny Gluch: it's it's I'm doing this just more of a show as opposed to really trying to hold, you know ourselves in this relationship as being accountable to each other, one to a quality of work, and the other one to a quality of leadership.
84
00:09:25.060 --> 00:09:27.070
Danny Gluch: and I feel like
85
00:09:27.560 --> 00:09:39.210
Danny Gluch: a lot of teams and organizations fail in both ways. Right? They're they're not good at holding people accountable for the quality of the work. They're not good at holding people accountable for the quality of the feedback and the coaching and the leadership.
86
00:09:39.530 --> 00:09:40.390
Greer Procich: Yeah, yeah.
87
00:09:40.390 --> 00:09:46.569
Danny Gluch: What, what do we? What do we do? How? Where do you start? How do you set the tone of
88
00:09:46.770 --> 00:09:55.010
Danny Gluch: we're going to have performance conversations, performance conversations are how we hold each other accountable. Where does that start? How do you do that?
89
00:09:55.010 --> 00:10:15.450
Greer Procich: I think it starts at the top. Honestly, it's gotta have buy-in from the leaders at the top. So for you know, with our tool as we're implementing it. We're we're seeing that if leaders aren't bought in their teams aren't gonna do it because it's not important, you know. Let's be. Let's be really honest. Feedback is not a revenue-generating thing.
90
00:10:15.590 --> 00:10:28.279
Greer Procich: it's not. And so, because of that, it becomes one of the 1st d prioritized things. When we get busy, or when something happens, or exactly all those kinds of things. And so if that's
91
00:10:28.370 --> 00:10:53.459
Greer Procich: if that's what happens, why are we focusing on feedback? Why am I wasting my time when I've got a million other things to do, and I'm already working more than 40 HA week, so we've got to give people the right reasons to be doing feedback. And we're not doing that right now. And it starts from the top. So for me, I think it really comes down to who you involve in the process. So if you're gonna be talking about changing a feedback system or something that is
92
00:10:53.650 --> 00:11:22.360
Greer Procich: the DNA of the culture, because feedback is part of the DNA of the culture. You've got to have a representative group. So how are you bringing people into the conversation? How are you listening to what they think? Success looks like? How are you listening to what is working for them when it comes to performance? We should be asking them, Is this heavy? Is it? Is it giving you a good representation of how your team is doing? Is it easy to rate people on this stuff is the feedback meaningful, but none of that is done because
93
00:11:22.490 --> 00:11:47.310
Greer Procich: all of this is done in a silo right? Hr. Has been tasked with creating a feedback system, so they do it, and they put it in place, and then they never think about it again until it comes time to check that box, because that's what the Board of directors expects. So I think there's a lot of education that has to happen for the entire organization all the way up to these antiquated board of directors that are used to this annual performance review because it checks the box.
94
00:11:47.440 --> 00:12:03.110
Greer Procich: So it there's a lot of evolution that has to happen, and there's a lot of education that has to happen. But also, again, you know, if leadership isn't bought in, we can't be holding our team members accountable to it as well. It just. It doesn't work that way.
95
00:12:03.400 --> 00:12:04.030
Greer Procich: you know. Yeah.
96
00:12:04.030 --> 00:12:07.859
Cacha Dora: I feel like part of the undertone of what you're talking about. To Greer like with
97
00:12:07.910 --> 00:12:16.079
Cacha Dora: performance management is the the change that we need is, it's less performance management and more professional development.
98
00:12:16.300 --> 00:12:17.459
Cacha Dora: Right? Like, if you put.
99
00:12:17.460 --> 00:12:19.250
Greer Procich: All depends on it.
100
00:12:19.250 --> 00:12:28.870
Cacha Dora: And then suddenly the whole process changes suddenly the impact of feedback is different. And like you were saying. And Mary was saying, right like when it's done as a part of the culture.
101
00:12:29.330 --> 00:12:31.290
Cacha Dora: It's a completely different
102
00:12:31.970 --> 00:12:45.780
Cacha Dora: experience from onboarding through your journey right, whether you're getting promoted, whether you you leave, whatever the case may be, but performance management versus like, well, if I'm giving you feedback to get better, isn't that
103
00:12:45.900 --> 00:12:47.360
Cacha Dora: professional development?
104
00:12:47.590 --> 00:12:49.189
Cacha Dora: Isn't that different now?
105
00:12:49.775 --> 00:13:05.669
Greer Procich: Yeah, well, I think that that comes into actually knowing your team members goals and aspirations and how they want to progress in their career. Because if you think about it, you have to know those end goals to be able to give good feedback so that they can get there right.
106
00:13:05.890 --> 00:13:29.539
Greer Procich: It's a huge conversation. There's so many more arms and legs that exist to these performance conversations. Because you're right. They're not only technical. They're not only trying to make sure that we're doing our role well. But it's also where do you want to be? How do you want to get there? And as your manager. How can I get you access to resources and remove barriers that you're experiencing as well? So I think we have to think of performance as a partnership.
107
00:13:29.540 --> 00:13:36.909
Greer Procich: But right now it's these silo, different things that only cross at the checkbox time. And so
108
00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:39.140
Greer Procich: why is it not impactful? Halloween?
109
00:13:39.140 --> 00:13:39.730
Danny Gluch: Be honest.
110
00:13:39.730 --> 00:13:40.210
Greer Procich: I suppose.
111
00:13:40.210 --> 00:13:51.969
Danny Gluch: A a lot of times. The conversations only happen as a procedural thing to address bad behavior or bad performance. Right? That's the only time they're starting to happen.
112
00:13:52.010 --> 00:14:00.869
Danny Gluch: And and I think this is a good transition into talking about one on ones, and how important they are and where they can go wrong and
113
00:14:01.050 --> 00:14:03.074
Danny Gluch: how to do them. Well.
114
00:14:03.850 --> 00:14:07.210
Danny Gluch: Because what I'm hearing is.
115
00:14:07.650 --> 00:14:14.809
Danny Gluch: it's much more of a sort of coaching, not necessarily mentorship, but but but a coaching leadership.
116
00:14:16.970 --> 00:14:19.540
Danny Gluch: relationship between the you know.
117
00:14:19.930 --> 00:14:21.750
Danny Gluch: within this conversation
118
00:14:22.810 --> 00:14:39.769
Danny Gluch: that seems not typical, though it seems more like when the one on ones happen. It's tell me about your projects. What are the updates? This probably could have been an email or a spreadsheet, or a Monday board. Or you know any of those other tools, the cello, whatever.
119
00:14:39.770 --> 00:14:42.730
Cacha Dora: Just send you a couple of bullet points on slack, and say, bye.
120
00:14:42.730 --> 00:14:45.530
Danny Gluch: Yes, right? Like. So
121
00:14:45.690 --> 00:14:53.900
Danny Gluch: how do we again? Because it starts with buy-in from the top and and trickles down? But how do we get people to understand
122
00:14:54.690 --> 00:14:59.179
Danny Gluch: that they're not meeting one on one with their employees as
123
00:14:59.714 --> 00:15:11.760
Danny Gluch: as a project check-in. They're doing it as a performance conversation. And that's actually a good thing. It's not a bad or scary thing. How? How can we transition that to where it's helpful.
124
00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:37.660
Greer Procich: Expectation shattering for managers. Right? We have to say it's part of your job. We have to say in your job description. It is your job to give feedback. It is your job to coach. Is your job to do all of these things right. Set the tone from day, one from before day, one when they're looking at the job description going through the interview process. We want to make sure that they know it's part of what we're doing. But I will say, on the flip side of that
125
00:15:37.980 --> 00:15:54.150
Greer Procich: we're not equipping our managers to be successful. We are setting them up to fail flagrantly in a ball of fire consistently. And so when we're not training them, and we're not giving them the resources to be able to have these conversations.
126
00:15:54.150 --> 00:16:12.650
Greer Procich: And then it's not happening. Why are we surprised? And so for me, you know, I'm consistently asking my team, how does this work for our lowest common denominator and our lowest common denominator is that 1st time manager, especially the 1st time manager, who just got promoted and is now managing their peers
127
00:16:12.650 --> 00:16:36.080
Greer Procich: so like, how are we setting them up to be successful? How are we making sure that they know how to give feedback? And they know how to do it in the moment, because they're probably used to only getting feedback, that is critical, or whatever at an annual cadence. So why do we expect them to know how to do management differently. So I really think it's it's training, it's expectation setting. And then
128
00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:46.099
Greer Procich: it's auditing. It's making sure that this is happening. It's asking for feedback from the team members and saying, Are your one on ones effective? You know one of my favorite questions is to ask.
129
00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:48.979
Greer Procich: and an evaluation, is it worth your time.
130
00:16:49.150 --> 00:17:13.090
Greer Procich: So hey? Where your have your one on? One's been worth your time? I wanna know that, because if I'm getting a low score on that, I think that gives me some pause for cause to reassess how I can make it better. But we're not thinking about those things. We're thinking tactical. And how can we get this all done? We have to shift the paradigm of one on ones, and you know I'm a big believer that one on ones are where the alignment happens between a manager and a team member.
131
00:17:13.089 --> 00:17:26.770
Greer Procich: So if we can give them better resources, and we can give them some structures or some expectations on how to run them. A quick agenda, you know. Some bullet points that we'd like them to hit. We can support them to do this better, but
132
00:17:26.770 --> 00:17:28.730
Greer Procich: we're not prioritizing it.
133
00:17:28.730 --> 00:17:34.899
Marion: Let's take this. Let's take this back a second to talking about it, starting from the top.
134
00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:37.019
Marion: because I think that there's a
135
00:17:37.070 --> 00:17:48.740
Marion: right that goes on quite frankly within the C-suite. Right? You know, I I don't tell me. You know I'm I'm just gonna assume it's happening because I'm busy over here, and so
136
00:17:48.940 --> 00:17:57.950
Marion: to your point when they don't prioritize it. Why the hell would anyone else? Right? But it's not even just the prioritization. It's the understanding of it.
137
00:17:58.581 --> 00:18:07.499
Marion: And again, whoopin generalization. And there's some incredible leaders out there that actually do understand the true essence of performance management. But many don't.
138
00:18:07.650 --> 00:18:16.419
Marion: And they're focused on keeping the lights on quite rightly. Of course you're a CEO. You've got a hell of a lot of responsibility on your shoulders.
139
00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:17.390
Marion: but
140
00:18:17.520 --> 00:18:20.690
Marion: there's an absolute disconnect
141
00:18:20.730 --> 00:18:24.969
Marion: between what they're seeing and what they're doing.
142
00:18:24.970 --> 00:18:25.660
Greer Procich: Yes.
143
00:18:25.660 --> 00:18:33.119
Marion: And that's the biggest challenge we have as people leaders as business partners.
144
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:34.919
Marion: because quite often.
145
00:18:34.990 --> 00:18:45.987
Marion: you know, we're banging our head off a brick wall, trying to really push that point, and then we run out of steam, and when we run out of steam well, that's it. Games a bogey games over right.
146
00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:54.570
Marion: How how do we start there? Cause? That's that's the point we have to crack. Everyone else is easy. After that.
147
00:18:55.470 --> 00:18:56.039
Marion: Like we have to.
148
00:18:56.040 --> 00:19:21.870
Danny Gluch: Yeah, I I think that's the the exact thing we should be talking about here. And I'm a big believer in what gets measured is what matters, and oftentimes what's being asked. And this this goes from the top down. What's being asked is, do we have money to keep the lights on. How are we getting more money to keep the lights on? How are we getting more money to get my yacht, whatever it is right like th. Those are the questions that are being asked. So those are the questions that trickle down
149
00:19:21.870 --> 00:19:47.330
Danny Gluch: at no point are they asking, hey, what percentage of the you know, for frontline or individual contributors rank their one on ones as effective and useful of their time. What percentage of our managers are doing this consistently? They're not asking. That one, I truly believe, is because they don't get measured very often. They don't have those numbers just to be like, you know what? Here's A,
150
00:19:47.330 --> 00:19:55.249
Danny Gluch: here's an email that tells you how we're doing on this. Here's a dashboard that just shows you because you should have visibility into this. We just don't have it.
151
00:19:55.660 --> 00:20:13.369
Cacha Dora: Well, I think to also, Danny, the things that lack in in the business space, too, are going back to what we were talking about our our knowledge aspects right? Like you. There's there's kind of 2 groups. There's people who learn sheerly by exposure. And then there's people who learn because they've sought learning.
152
00:20:13.490 --> 00:20:15.720
Cacha Dora: And when you're in the C-suite
153
00:20:15.910 --> 00:20:32.160
Cacha Dora: to your point, a lot of times, those one on ones might be purely tactical. Right? Again, the development piece is missing. So if you're only going through tactical to, are we hitting our deliverables? What are your teams doing to make sure that we're hitting Q. One h. One, etc.
154
00:20:32.930 --> 00:20:41.180
Cacha Dora: Then development, even at the top level, isn't happening, because the only thing that's being measured is the deliverable right. But
155
00:20:41.340 --> 00:20:43.770
Cacha Dora: being able to marry
156
00:20:43.790 --> 00:20:47.130
Cacha Dora: good feedback in a good one on one
157
00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:53.339
Cacha Dora: lays such a great foundation for actual performance management
158
00:20:53.390 --> 00:21:08.679
Cacha Dora: where you're getting well. I need to know how you're doing on your deliverables. But also, if you're not doing well on your deliverables, I need to know why. And if that turns into a development thing right like there's so many young managers that'll just go right to a pip because they don't give feedback.
159
00:21:09.260 --> 00:21:18.490
Cacha Dora: and they don't have a structure or an education system in place to be able to help them understand that the pip's like 3 miles away
160
00:21:18.660 --> 00:21:21.069
Cacha Dora: you're you're and you're and you're walking.
161
00:21:22.820 --> 00:21:26.571
Cacha Dora: So it's gonna take you a while to get those 3 miles in.
162
00:21:27.150 --> 00:21:29.659
Cacha Dora: And so it's 1 of those things where it's like.
163
00:21:29.740 --> 00:21:41.687
Cacha Dora: how do we give that training? And you know, like. I always joke with people, too, because some of the best organizations give really good feedback training through role play. But every adult cringes and curls inside.
164
00:21:43.130 --> 00:21:50.990
Cacha Dora: We talk about it, but you're not going to find yourself in a bad, uncomfortable situation and be like it's time to practice.
165
00:21:51.595 --> 00:21:52.200
Greer Procich: Yeah.
166
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:55.200
Cacha Dora: Like the practice should be coming
167
00:21:55.660 --> 00:22:04.729
Cacha Dora: before you get to a place where you're where you're uncomfortable as a manager, as a person, as a peer, whatever the case may be, right.
168
00:22:04.730 --> 00:22:05.260
Greer Procich: -
169
00:22:05.652 --> 00:22:11.140
Cacha Dora: But most organizations and most people are gonna be like, let's deprioritize that, please.
170
00:22:11.140 --> 00:22:14.729
Greer Procich: I mean, think about it. So what I'm hearing is
171
00:22:14.820 --> 00:22:22.730
Greer Procich: this would be a great place to measure things in a pulse. Survey. Right? So how are things going? Let's take a quick pulse. Let's do all these things.
172
00:22:22.730 --> 00:22:23.270
Cacha Dora: Oh, man!
173
00:22:23.270 --> 00:22:39.649
Greer Procich: But instead, pulse surveys are focused on these intangible, huge things that are pretty nebulous and don't really have a lot of action attached to them. So we're like getting this fake understanding of where the organization is at, because
174
00:22:39.960 --> 00:23:03.299
Greer Procich: these ratings don't really matter. And you can't really do anything with them. So like, we're focusing Danny on what you're saying, measuring, we're measuring the wrong things. We're consistently measuring the wrong things. And we're measuring the wrong things on size of the organization because a 10,000 person organization does not need the same processes for feedback that a hundred person organization does.
175
00:23:03.300 --> 00:23:19.889
Greer Procich: But we can't be measuring the same things across that. So there's a level of intention. I think that is lacking when it comes to performance. I don't think that it's an afterthought. It's always an afterthought, unless you're an Hr. And you're building the program and deploying it and getting rated on it.
176
00:23:19.890 --> 00:23:22.259
Greer Procich: It's not your priority whatsoever.
177
00:23:22.260 --> 00:23:23.380
Marion: Hmm,
178
00:23:24.500 --> 00:23:27.272
Cacha Dora: Really really good sound snippet there, cause it's true.
179
00:23:27.580 --> 00:23:28.034
Marion: Yeah,
180
00:23:28.490 --> 00:23:29.420
Greer Procich: Yeah.
181
00:23:29.670 --> 00:23:30.330
Greer Procich: it. It.
182
00:23:30.330 --> 00:23:34.140
Marion: And I think that leads us nicely into the kind of infrastructure
183
00:23:34.250 --> 00:23:36.370
Marion: that's needed. Because
184
00:23:37.290 --> 00:23:38.750
Marion: I mean.
185
00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:44.479
Marion: there's still people out there using spreadsheets, and you know, one sheet tick box
186
00:23:45.280 --> 00:23:48.040
Marion: crop for quite frankly
187
00:23:48.850 --> 00:23:49.620
Marion: interviews in.
188
00:23:49.630 --> 00:23:50.160
Greer Procich: And.
189
00:23:50.160 --> 00:24:01.090
Marion: Not everyone, and I get it like not everyone can afford. You know the the big tech tools of the world, you know. There's some great tools out there, but they're pricey right, especially when you're just getting up off the ground.
190
00:24:03.060 --> 00:24:23.899
Marion: How I mean, you know again you said it well, a minute ago a 10,000 employee based company has very different needs to 100 base right? If you think about that, snee that small to medium enterprise. What do you think they need to get them off the ground to be successful, and to start the journey in a meaningful.
191
00:24:23.900 --> 00:24:25.770
Danny Gluch: Just as far as systems, tools.
192
00:24:25.770 --> 00:24:27.310
Marion: Yeah, yeah.
193
00:24:27.370 --> 00:24:54.290
Greer Procich: I mean, a small company can start with spreadsheets. If you don't have money, you can start with Google forms you can start with, you know easy little things intentionally if you do it. If you have a good set of questions that's applicable to the level and the role. Specifically, it doesn't matter where you gather the information or how you gather, it just matters that you gather it. So I think a lot of times, though we see in these small 100 person companies.
194
00:24:54.290 --> 00:25:06.010
Greer Procich: You've got an Hr person. That's a true Blue generalist who is legitimately responsible for benefits and enrollment, and in immigration.
195
00:25:06.010 --> 00:25:07.080
Cacha Dora: Everything, under.
196
00:25:07.080 --> 00:25:09.149
Greer Procich: All of those things.
197
00:25:09.150 --> 00:25:11.020
Danny Gluch: Might be doing payroll too.
198
00:25:11.256 --> 00:25:12.200
Greer Procich: Talent, and they're like.
199
00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:13.169
Cacha Dora: Learning and development.
200
00:25:13.170 --> 00:25:14.899
Greer Procich: And their employee relations.
201
00:25:14.900 --> 00:25:15.700
Cacha Dora: Everything right.
202
00:25:15.700 --> 00:25:18.800
Marion: And don't don't forget. Don't forget the pizza parties.
203
00:25:18.800 --> 00:25:20.449
Greer Procich: Exactly or integral to the.
204
00:25:20.450 --> 00:25:21.230
Cacha Dora: Job, title.
205
00:25:21.230 --> 00:25:46.120
Greer Procich: Yeah, and the executive assistant pieces where they're cancelling their boss's meetings. Don't ever forget that piece, either, but we're not setting those people up to succeed. We're saying you have to do all of these things, and you have to put in place a system for performance. And there's just so many competing priorities that, like we said before, that's the one that falls behind. That's the one where we kind of rest, where we're comfortable. And we go back to this annual process because it's what we know.
206
00:25:46.120 --> 00:26:10.450
Greer Procich: It's what we've done. So I think we've got to be intentional around. What are we giving our team members. And that's really what inspired us to start thinking about this continuous feedback platform is, how are we making it accessible? And how are we keeping it top of mind. How are we not siloing goals versus one-on-one's versus feedback, but actually bringing it all together into a holistic system where it's always
207
00:26:10.450 --> 00:26:23.310
Greer Procich: top of mind right? I don't think feedback isn't given unless it has to be given unless you're requested by the manager to give it on a 360, or unless it's review time. And so we have to make it easy.
208
00:26:23.310 --> 00:26:36.129
Greer Procich: these mechanisms for people to come back and give feedback and circle back around. But right now it's all done manually, all very manual. I don't know if you guys have ever run a manual feedback cycle, but it's a nightmare.
209
00:26:36.130 --> 00:26:39.680
Marion: It's torture, it's absolutely torture. It is so risky. The.
210
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:40.310
Greer Procich: Yes.
211
00:26:40.310 --> 00:26:45.670
Marion: Involved. There's so many things that can go tits up right, and then, if you screw it up, that's it.
212
00:26:46.370 --> 00:26:51.529
Marion: And any trust you've cultivated is gone. So I I in that
213
00:26:51.630 --> 00:27:00.000
Marion: clicked with me, just going back a moment. Something that you said about. You know, the true blue generalist, right? Something that we talk a lot about. Because
214
00:27:01.470 --> 00:27:06.891
Marion: i i i'm actually beginning to believe that the role of generalists should not exist anymore.
215
00:27:09.100 --> 00:27:09.700
Marion: Yeah.
216
00:27:09.700 --> 00:27:10.960
Greer Procich: Let me join that train if you.
217
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:11.440
Marion: Yeah.
218
00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:13.603
Greer Procich: Thank you for that group. I will be your Vp.
219
00:27:13.820 --> 00:27:18.510
Marion: Yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm really reaching that point where
220
00:27:19.110 --> 00:27:21.959
Marion: here's the, you know. If I use myself as a yardstick.
221
00:27:22.710 --> 00:27:23.520
Marion: Well, I got
222
00:27:24.220 --> 00:27:31.449
Marion: I've been called the Unicorn. That's a really nice thing to say. But I I genuinely have had experience across the whole gambit. Right? So I can do it all
223
00:27:32.080 --> 00:27:39.659
Marion: just because I can do all doesn't mean I can do it all right, because I'll die for try and do it all. And
224
00:27:39.710 --> 00:27:55.339
Marion: if I think about, you know journalists, or maybe earlier in their career that have an expectation to be able to do all one you can and 2, you won't have the specialist knowledge to be able to be doing it in a way that's gonna set you and the organization up for success
225
00:27:55.700 --> 00:28:01.010
Marion: queue fractional work right? This is where that makes sense, you know. Use your use, your fractional resources.
226
00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:07.480
Marion: But you know, tying that back to what you were just saying about, you know doing it manually and risk
227
00:28:07.500 --> 00:28:13.630
Marion: risk for me is the biggest thing like, I always tell people that our job
228
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:25.279
Marion: in in in, you know, people. Hr, whatever you want to call it, is to stand in front of the company and assume this, the superhero position like. And and you're basically a shield to protect everyone
229
00:28:25.310 --> 00:28:35.099
Marion: when we say we're protecting the company. That means everybody. Every employee vendors, you know the the organization and its and its ecosystem.
230
00:28:36.330 --> 00:28:38.130
Marion: If we don't have
231
00:28:38.210 --> 00:28:40.950
Marion: the right things to be able to do that.
232
00:28:40.980 --> 00:28:43.400
Marion: We're dead in the water before we start.
233
00:28:43.490 --> 00:28:45.289
Marion: So I think
234
00:28:45.310 --> 00:28:59.399
Marion: you have to be able to have that conversation with a senior leader to help them understand? Yeah, I know we could do on Google forms in a spreadsheet. But let me tell you the risk. And let me tell you
235
00:28:59.520 --> 00:29:12.639
Marion: what that could be right and and and make. Let's make an educated decision on that. Not just a financially driven decision on that. That's tough for someone who's maybe only got 3 or 4 years experience under their belt.
236
00:29:13.348 --> 00:29:16.521
Greer Procich: Yeah, absolutely. Totally. I think it's
237
00:29:17.170 --> 00:29:34.450
Greer Procich: it's a love it's a power thing at that point right, it really comes down to power and influence and autonomy. And most times generalists don't have any of those things, and they're just given what they have to do, and then they execute to the best of their abilities. So I will say, too, you know, in these kind of
238
00:29:34.570 --> 00:29:41.549
Greer Procich: small medium businesses, a lot of times the head of everything. The leader is, CEO
239
00:29:41.760 --> 00:29:59.660
Greer Procich: isn't a people person, unfortunately. And so then you're trying to make the argument with them. Hey? This is why we should be doing this or this is how we should be doing this. They're like, I never had to do it that way, or this isn't what I'm used to, or I never did this in my past roles, and it's like, well, okay, hold on, hold on, hold on!
240
00:29:59.660 --> 00:30:20.520
Greer Procich: Let's take a few steps back, and let's understand why, you've never done it in the past. But let's say, how did that impact you in the past? And maybe if we did something different, here's some of the outcomes that we could think about. So it's a lot. I'll go back. It's a lot about educating senior leadership on what's important. Why, it's important what role they play, and how they show up as well.
241
00:30:20.520 --> 00:30:29.399
Marion: Yeah, I was just laughing because I could hear someone in my head saying, just because you did it that way in the big last. The last big company you work for doesn't mean it's gonna work here.
242
00:30:29.950 --> 00:30:43.530
Greer Procich: And it's wild. Because in tech, it's everywhere we're innovators. We're doing things differently. We're we're showing up and showing out. But when it comes to performance. We're we're we're not gonna evolve. And we're gonna stay rest up.
243
00:30:43.889 --> 00:30:44.250
Cacha Dora: Yeah.
244
00:30:44.250 --> 00:30:53.733
Marion: Yeah, as our as our friend, as our mutual friend Kim Minnick says. You know they're still they're still doing performance management like it was in the forties right.
245
00:30:55.290 --> 00:31:05.560
Greer Procich: Kim gets it. Kim Kim understands it. She totally. I would trust anything that comes out of when it comes to performance management. Yeah, she gets it.
246
00:31:05.560 --> 00:31:09.170
Marion: Me, too, and dogs anything she says about performance management and dogs. Yeah.
247
00:31:09.170 --> 00:31:14.200
Greer Procich: Well, Kirby, her her chief happiness officer, is is stellar stellar.
248
00:31:15.780 --> 00:31:18.160
Danny Gluch: So I've got a question.
249
00:31:18.656 --> 00:31:38.159
Danny Gluch: Us, assuming that we can have the conversation and really explain why these are important why leadership should invest the money on some of these tools to avoid some of the risk and just problems that doing it on spreadsheets and Google forms would would create. And we say, Okay, we we've got them to sign the check.
250
00:31:39.820 --> 00:31:45.259
Danny Gluch: We know that that does not always mean that managers are going to use these tools.
251
00:31:46.210 --> 00:31:47.870
Cacha Dora: Keyword of utilization.
252
00:31:47.870 --> 00:31:50.819
Danny Gluch: And oftentimes I think that
253
00:31:51.270 --> 00:31:59.670
Danny Gluch: the the tools are are so big and they're doing so many things that it becomes like a barrier to usage.
254
00:31:59.670 --> 00:32:00.170
Greer Procich: M-hmm.
255
00:32:00.170 --> 00:32:10.049
Danny Gluch: And it almost would be in some ways easier if this was Google forms, because at least that's familiar and seems like an easy. I just need to do a few things.
256
00:32:11.008 --> 00:32:17.370
Danny Gluch: You know, and we hear things about app fatigue. And this isn't just on performance conversations. This is for everything.
257
00:32:17.370 --> 00:32:17.909
Greer Procich: 1st thing.
258
00:32:17.910 --> 00:32:34.050
Danny Gluch: You know, recognition. And who knows what? There's just there's a different username and login for like a hundred different things. And one of the things you're gonna hear when you're trying to roll out, whether you're a generalist or your whole Hr teams working on this. You're gonna hear from managers.
259
00:32:34.520 --> 00:32:37.889
Danny Gluch: I'm sorry. I just don't want another thing to to log into like.
260
00:32:38.134 --> 00:32:39.109
Cacha Dora: Don't have the time.
261
00:32:39.620 --> 00:32:42.679
Greer Procich: I always say I don't need another fucking tool.
262
00:32:42.680 --> 00:32:43.030
Marion: Yeah.
263
00:32:43.030 --> 00:32:49.540
Greer Procich: I don't have time, energy, or really desire to learn another fucking tool.
264
00:32:49.710 --> 00:32:50.090
Marion: Yeah.
265
00:32:50.090 --> 00:32:56.940
Danny Gluch: And and then the onboarding process is is some, whatever person on their team who's literally just telling you about the roadmap and not helping.
266
00:32:56.940 --> 00:33:09.899
Greer Procich: Which is not how people learn exactly right. It's we have to. I think this is this is really such, the heart of not just performance. But what we experience in the people realm is, people don't learn by being told
267
00:33:10.030 --> 00:33:20.809
Greer Procich: so we can't just tell them. Here's your new platform. Here's your new process. Go do it like you announce it in an all hands one time. And you consider that a process change.
268
00:33:20.820 --> 00:33:35.470
Greer Procich: Yeah, come on, guys, like, let's let's step it up a little bit. Put yourself in their shoes. What are you really holding them accountable to? How are you explaining what the process looks like, why, they're doing it all these things. We're not doing that basic jumping.
269
00:33:35.470 --> 00:33:36.617
Marion: Yeah, it's basically.
270
00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:37.450
Greer Procich: Sink.
271
00:33:37.450 --> 00:33:40.940
Marion: Right, you know. Build your coalition.
272
00:33:41.380 --> 00:33:45.609
Marion: identify your change agents, all of that. And
273
00:33:45.670 --> 00:33:50.940
Marion: we did an episode earlier in the series which was about why, most
274
00:33:51.446 --> 00:33:59.353
Marion: changes organizational changes will tetz up right? Cause. It's for the for the very reasons that most people just don't understand how to do it.
275
00:33:59.930 --> 00:34:07.990
Marion: So so there's that go back to the thing about app fatigue, though, because this is this is the the other thing that's a killer.
276
00:34:08.050 --> 00:34:09.550
Marion: Having spent
277
00:34:09.940 --> 00:34:11.909
Marion: many days.
278
00:34:11.929 --> 00:34:17.449
Marion: weeks, hours. Perusing. Mark the marketplace for various
279
00:34:17.510 --> 00:34:29.160
Marion: tech needs right? Whether it be hris payo combo, whether it be, you know, an ats, whether it be you know, for for talent, development, performance management whatever.
280
00:34:29.699 --> 00:34:37.380
Marion: There is no Holy Grail, no tech company has solved the one-stop shop solution right?
281
00:34:37.389 --> 00:34:37.849
Greer Procich: M-hmm.
282
00:34:37.850 --> 00:34:39.829
Marion: Any of them like to see that they have.
283
00:34:39.860 --> 00:34:41.290
Marion: but the product shit right.
284
00:34:41.290 --> 00:34:41.900
Greer Procich: Up.
285
00:34:43.553 --> 00:34:44.380
Marion: And
286
00:34:44.730 --> 00:34:53.730
Marion: there's some that are inching closer to it than others. But it doesn't exist. You can't be a specialist in atas and payroll systems. It's just not possible. Right? So this is.
287
00:34:53.730 --> 00:34:54.999
Cacha Dora: Adding on an lms on top.
288
00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:56.816
Danny Gluch: Yeah, that is good
289
00:34:57.270 --> 00:35:07.680
Marion: And this is where the tech fatigue thing becomes a real dichotomy, because you need the tools. You want the most effective tools to meet the need.
290
00:35:07.790 --> 00:35:19.749
Marion: But the more effective the tool you need means, the more specialist. Exactly which means you then end up needing the separate ats. Lms. Hris.
291
00:35:19.750 --> 00:35:20.389
Greer Procich: Okay. Yep.
292
00:35:20.390 --> 00:35:21.240
Marion: And and that.
293
00:35:22.120 --> 00:35:27.389
Marion: you know we we may have a we may have a better chance of solving world peace than.
294
00:35:27.390 --> 00:35:28.070
Greer Procich: Yeah.
295
00:35:28.070 --> 00:35:29.050
Marion: It's that problem.
296
00:35:29.270 --> 00:35:51.750
Greer Procich: Yeah. Well, I think you know, this is something that we kind of encountered when we started, we were like, we're gonna build an app. We're gonna do all this stuff. And as we were going, we're like, we're just doing the same thing. So it's it's not about building what, not just about building what people need. But it's also about building where people need. And so we're really focusing a lot of our efforts on being able to do it in slack
297
00:35:51.750 --> 00:36:15.899
Greer Procich: like. That's where I spend 80% of my day. I would love to not have to leave that channel, to be able to give feedback and to do a review, and to do whatever it is that, you know. Add agenda items to my one on one or update my goals like. I don't want to have to go to another platform. I want to be told when it's time for me to do something through a really simple little notification right where I'm used to working, so I could boop
298
00:36:16.120 --> 00:36:29.450
Greer Procich: plug it through and be done, and not think about it again. So like we have to think about how we're integrating all of our systems because we're still treating performance as a standalone, and it can't be a standalone because it touches every piece of an employee.
299
00:36:29.450 --> 00:36:45.140
Danny Gluch: I think that's such an important part is feedback is not a separate thing, that you have a meeting, for. It is something that is just a part of our relationships. It's why one of my favorite feedback mechanisms is the Danny squint.
300
00:36:45.220 --> 00:36:51.660
Danny Gluch: Yeah, this is just going to be immediate feedback that I am not really happy with what is going on right now.
301
00:36:52.070 --> 00:36:54.190
Cacha Dora: Power of seeing you in a meeting.
302
00:36:54.410 --> 00:36:56.780
Greer Procich: I believe.
303
00:36:56.780 --> 00:37:12.149
Danny Gluch: We'll never forget working. We're we're just like, you know what you know. We're like that that works right? It needs to be integrated. I think slack is a amazing idea to where it is just a a part of the fabric of what we do. But.
304
00:37:12.150 --> 00:37:17.520
Cacha Dora: And the it makes the barrier to entry so much smaller right now. I don't have to learn how to use slack
305
00:37:17.720 --> 00:37:42.910
Cacha Dora: I and like. If it's a poll cool, I know how to click through a poll right like, or a fill in field, or whatever the case may be like. I know how to do this. So now the training wouldn't need to be on the tool. The training could be on your thought process your intention right? Like the whole barrier drops when it's something that's accessible and easy to understand at the onset.
306
00:37:42.910 --> 00:37:43.420
Danny Gluch: Yeah.
307
00:37:43.420 --> 00:37:44.019
Greer Procich: Well, India is.
308
00:37:44.020 --> 00:37:53.000
Danny Gluch: Not a tool. The training is, how do you actually effectively debrief a project? How do you effectively plan and set goals and benchmarks for projects.
309
00:37:55.040 --> 00:37:55.770
Greer Procich: yeah.
310
00:37:57.030 --> 00:38:00.719
Marion: I don't know. I I think we bit might have a better chance of solving world peace. To be honest.
311
00:38:02.770 --> 00:38:03.120
Greer Procich: But with.
312
00:38:03.120 --> 00:38:05.369
Cacha Dora: Utopia in here. It's fine.
313
00:38:05.370 --> 00:38:18.590
Greer Procich: I really think it comes down to creating habits. We have to give people the opportunity to create habits. We're not. We're creating and manifesting this point in time process.
314
00:38:18.590 --> 00:38:42.335
Greer Procich: and then we're going well, why aren't you doing it consistently? It's like, Well, hold on. These 2 things don't cross. They're independent of one another. So we have to. I love that we are talking about change management. I'm a big change management gal, and I think the 1st 2 letters of the ad car model that Prosi uses are where we fall. So it's awareness and desire.
315
00:38:42.680 --> 00:38:43.650
Cacha Dora: Foundation bucket.
316
00:38:43.650 --> 00:38:48.359
Greer Procich: Yeah, we're not even getting to K, and so it's like, why are we
317
00:38:48.530 --> 00:38:52.783
Greer Procich: expecting them to get all the way there? If we're not giving them the pieces to get there.
318
00:38:53.270 --> 00:38:55.410
Marion: Exactly, exactly.
319
00:38:55.930 --> 00:38:56.520
Danny Gluch: Poof.
320
00:38:57.820 --> 00:38:58.930
Cacha Dora: Knowledge, bomb.
321
00:38:58.930 --> 00:39:01.459
Danny Gluch: Yeah, that's just oh, man.
322
00:39:02.016 --> 00:39:02.573
Greer Procich: I.
323
00:39:03.463 --> 00:39:03.796
Cacha Dora: Hits.
324
00:39:04.130 --> 00:39:21.409
Greer Procich: I mean, I I love a model. I think a model is not something that I have come up with. It's something that is out there and known and tested. And so, you know, we know all of these things that our leadership looks at all these different models. Business models. We, as Hr. Have to also come in with models, and we have to come in with
325
00:39:21.450 --> 00:39:45.379
Greer Procich: data and stats that back up what we're doing and why we wanna do it like we have to be strategic business partners to our leadership when it comes to performance and part of that is being able to give our leaders feedback when their performance isn't cutting it too. So like we have to walk the walk as Hr people. And I think that's part of the problem is.
326
00:39:45.380 --> 00:39:56.459
Greer Procich: we're not holding up our end of the bargain when it comes to leadership. So they're not keeping it top of mind. So we're all part of this ecosystem of feedback, and everybody plays a role.
327
00:39:56.460 --> 00:40:02.789
Marion: This is a conversation we come back to again and again and again, and it's the role of
328
00:40:03.050 --> 00:40:13.439
Marion: Hr. Versus the people we right, the Cpo versus the CH. Ro and you know how they're used interchangeably, and they're not the same thing.
329
00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:14.480
Greer Procich: No.
330
00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:30.339
Marion: You have to be a business person that looks at business through the lens of people, instead of being a people person that tries to understand the business, but doesn't really get it. So they just stay in their corner and their glass office and text boxes all day. Right.
331
00:40:31.205 --> 00:40:32.069
Greer Procich: It!
332
00:40:32.070 --> 00:40:38.620
Marion: And I'm the 1st one to say, and I see this regularly is that we are our own worst enemy. We are in our.
333
00:40:38.620 --> 00:40:39.870
Greer Procich: Session Hook.
334
00:40:39.870 --> 00:40:45.340
Marion: We do not. We're talking out both sides of our mouth most of the time.
335
00:40:45.680 --> 00:40:53.449
Marion: So there's a lot that needs to happen within our profession in terms of upscaling, understanding, clarifying.
336
00:40:53.470 --> 00:40:58.980
Marion: blowing up, and starting again, like all of that needs to happen before
337
00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:08.910
Marion: our vertical of people can really be taken seriously and truly, truly, be an effective business partner, because in our current state
338
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:11.280
Marion: we're half an asset. Quite frankly.
339
00:41:12.520 --> 00:41:25.679
Danny Gluch: I mean, some of that is just the the the years, decades of experience that so many people have is not in that strategic business partner. It was more in the operational. Oh, yeah, you asked me to do this. I did it.
340
00:41:25.680 --> 00:41:27.410
Greer Procich: Very transactional, very.
341
00:41:27.410 --> 00:41:35.759
Danny Gluch: And I don't. Wanna you know, none of us are talking badly about that. That's what the role was. But the role is transitioning.
342
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:37.920
Cacha Dora: It's no longer just shared administration.
343
00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:45.839
Danny Gluch: You see that talked about in all of the Hr conferences? It's all talking about. How are we all shifting into being strategic?
344
00:41:45.850 --> 00:41:58.609
Danny Gluch: And and I think that what we're talking about here is great knowledge base. And and you know, getting people to think strategically about one on ones. It's not just about
345
00:41:59.450 --> 00:42:29.400
Danny Gluch: shopping for and selecting and paying for a tool that is not going to solve your performance conversation problems. It's not gonna solve your performance management problems. There's a lot that needs to go on. And it's not even just doing the change management bit right? It's there is a lot to this. And you need to be able to going way back to where we started. You need to be able to hold your common denominator managers accountable for doing this as a part of their job.
346
00:42:29.925 --> 00:42:31.500
Greer Procich: And I think.
347
00:42:31.500 --> 00:42:33.020
Cacha Dora: Danny. I think I think
348
00:42:33.200 --> 00:42:43.789
Cacha Dora: you got a really good point there, too. Right? Cause if you use, we talk a lot about like right. What's your north Star? Oh, it's performance! Oh, it's value! Oh, it's deliverables! Oh, it's whatever
349
00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:47.876
Cacha Dora: whatever your company decides, your North Star is whatever.
350
00:42:48.280 --> 00:42:48.999
Danny Gluch: Not a star.
351
00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:49.930
Greer Procich: Would be anything.
352
00:42:49.930 --> 00:42:51.090
Cacha Dora: Could be any? It could be?
353
00:42:51.090 --> 00:42:52.960
Danny Gluch: Maybe some rooms.
354
00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:58.369
Cacha Dora: Pizza parties. We have no idea. It's too early for that career. Don't do it.
355
00:42:58.946 --> 00:42:59.523
Greer Procich: Last.
356
00:43:00.659 --> 00:43:25.820
Cacha Dora: But I think a huge part of all of those processes that that all all of us have been talking about right come down to like. How are we setting these managers up for success? Is that the North Star, with our tech stack, with our training, with our conversations and coaching that we're truly having to do with our executives to get them on the same playing field. So that way their people actually produce what they're they're goaling them to produce. Right? We gotta set our managers up
357
00:43:26.100 --> 00:43:31.769
Cacha Dora: to be able to help, educate and coach and direct their people
358
00:43:32.170 --> 00:43:43.570
Cacha Dora: to hit those markers of the business right? And that's that strategic mindset. But it really comes down to how do we set you up to succeed? So we succeed. So I succeed.
359
00:43:43.610 --> 00:43:45.200
Cacha Dora: And that
360
00:43:45.720 --> 00:43:57.419
Cacha Dora: that holistic view of success, I think, is also something that tends to get missed in the people space, because it's only looking at the tech stack. It's only looking at the model. It's only
361
00:43:57.450 --> 00:44:03.289
Cacha Dora: looking in a particular binary direction as opposed to that.
362
00:44:03.730 --> 00:44:07.939
Cacha Dora: Taking a step back and saying, How do we support each and every entity
363
00:44:08.030 --> 00:44:09.140
Cacha Dora: to hit the mark.
364
00:44:10.120 --> 00:44:22.340
Greer Procich: Well, let's let's be honest, and I'll say let's be honest from Greer's point of view is that I think people are motivated by 2 things. It's either an incentive
365
00:44:22.340 --> 00:44:48.089
Greer Procich: or repercussion. Those are the only 2 things that are gonna motivate people to change their behavior and do something and everything we could talk about will fall into those 2 categories when it comes to performance. Nothing of out of either of those categories exists or applies to managers right? So there's no nothing holding them, saying, Hey, you didn't do your reviews, or you haven't given feedback this month to every team member.
366
00:44:48.130 --> 00:45:12.499
Greer Procich: You don't get a bonus you are. Don't qualify for a promotion, you know. There's no incentives saying, Hey, this is actually part of your role, and we're gonna hold you accountable, and check into it, and make sure that we have visibility into your progress, and how you're performing like none of that exists. It exists at the annual level. But we're not holding them accountable, and we're not giving them any reason
367
00:45:12.730 --> 00:45:20.159
Greer Procich: to give feedback outside of that annual process. So again, why are we expecting something different when we're not supporting them, to do something.
368
00:45:20.160 --> 00:45:20.969
Marion: And differently.
369
00:45:21.790 --> 00:45:23.200
Marion: Such a good point.
370
00:45:23.200 --> 00:45:24.850
Danny Gluch: Yeah, I mean, I think that's
371
00:45:25.920 --> 00:45:27.870
Danny Gluch: I think that's the ending point that I mean.
372
00:45:29.140 --> 00:45:54.179
Danny Gluch: I I've nothing to add like that is just 100% it like, are we just holding our managers week to week, month to month, quarter to quarter on whether or not their projects got finished and they hit their numbers? Or are we also, as a part of their job description holding them to? Are they actually leading their team? And my, I would, I would put all of my life savings like $75 on it.
373
00:45:55.220 --> 00:46:07.499
Danny Gluch: If you put the focus on. Are you actually leading your team and giving the feedback and having these conversations. If that's all you focused on monthly, weekly quarterly Quarterly, whatever
374
00:46:07.730 --> 00:46:18.399
Danny Gluch: the you app, you would actually not even have to worry about hitting your numbers because you're gonna happen because you're just getting your team to perform better on an individual and as a unit and like.
375
00:46:18.830 --> 00:46:23.059
Marion: Happy people, equals, productivity, equals, profit.
376
00:46:23.520 --> 00:46:24.060
Greer Procich: Who.
377
00:46:24.340 --> 00:46:38.809
Danny Gluch: They're they're looking at it backwards. And and you know it's it's Simon Sinek and Adam Grant, Amy Edmundson. Everybody talks about it all the people talk about it, but everyone just ignores it and says, but we want to focus on profit first.st
378
00:46:39.370 --> 00:46:40.490
Greer Procich: And and.
379
00:46:40.490 --> 00:46:42.019
Danny Gluch: Think that's a big part of the problem.
380
00:46:42.280 --> 00:46:59.429
Greer Procich: It's. It's hard to focus on things that are squishy and say that this is something squishy is our priority. It it's hard for leaders to say that. But that's where retention comes into play, and that's where, like Marion said it all. I don't have to say it all again, but I fully agree, fully, fully agree.
381
00:47:01.210 --> 00:47:07.229
Danny Gluch: Well, thank you so much. This was an incredible conversation. Any last thoughts, ladies.
382
00:47:09.210 --> 00:47:10.639
Cacha Dora: I want to keep having that conversation.
383
00:47:10.640 --> 00:47:10.980
Greer Procich: That way.
384
00:47:10.980 --> 00:47:11.900
Cacha Dora: Yeah.
385
00:47:11.900 --> 00:47:12.730
Marion: Can't be.
386
00:47:12.730 --> 00:47:29.140
Greer Procich: Consistently, and stop being a bitch and not telling your teams where they're at. Come on, guys, put yourself in their shoes like that's all I would say is, put yourself in your team, members, shoes. Do they know where they stand? Do they know how they're performing? If they don't give them some feedback on it.
387
00:47:29.140 --> 00:47:31.869
Marion: As we say, as we say in Scotland, man, the fuck up.
388
00:47:32.380 --> 00:47:35.769
Greer Procich: Guys. I would say, grow the fuck up.
389
00:47:36.540 --> 00:47:38.009
Greer Procich: That would be perfect. Yeah.
390
00:47:38.010 --> 00:47:40.670
Danny Gluch: Yeah, it's it's less sexist. That's true.
391
00:47:40.670 --> 00:47:43.374
Greer Procich: It's applicable to everybody.
392
00:47:44.200 --> 00:47:44.859
Marion: Let's be.
393
00:47:44.860 --> 00:47:46.110
Danny Gluch: As well. Let's be.
394
00:47:46.110 --> 00:47:46.970
Marion: Inclusive.
395
00:47:47.300 --> 00:47:51.618
Greer Procich: Yeah, let's be inclusive. So everybody grow the fuck up.
396
00:47:52.050 --> 00:48:12.019
Danny Gluch: And on that note thank you all for listening. You can reach us at elephant@thefearlesspx.com. Be sure to like subscribe. Leave a 5 star review. You can check out Greer and everything she's working on in the links in the show notes. You can also find her on Linkedin and everyone. We will see you next time. Thank you.
