The Elephant in the Org
The "Elephant in the Org" podcast is a daring dive into the unspoken challenges and opportunities in organizational development, particularly in the realm of employee experience. Hosted by the team at The Fearless PX, we tackle the "elephants" in the room—those taboo or ignored topics—that are critical for creating psychologically safe and highly effective workplaces.
The Elephant in the Org
ReThink Ability Episode 2 – From Relief to Rage: The Emotional Rollercoaster of Disability
What happens after the diagnosis?
In this raw and revelatory episode, co-hosts Marion Anderson and Danny Gluch sit down with guests Lia Seth and Don Ryan to explore the emotional whiplash of becoming — or realizing you’ve always been — disabled. From the relief of finally having an answer to the quiet rage of having to justify your needs again and again, this conversation unpacks the emotional toll behind the label.
We talk about:
- The surprise of late diagnosis and misdiagnosis
- Shame, fear, grief — and how they isolate
- The fight for accommodations and the sting of microaggressions
- What good allyship actually looks like
- Why managers need emotional fluency (and why it’s okay to mess it up)
This episode is for anyone navigating disability, supporting someone who is, or working in a system that still expects people to prove their pain before being believed.
Lia Seth is Director of People at Cylinder and a longtime HR pro. She’s an accessibility advocate, Girl Scout for life, and Seattle-based mountain enthusiast.
Don Ryan is a social worker and author of The Secret Struggle (2024), leading trauma and suicide prevention work in Minnesota with over 30 years of experience.
Link to Show Notes
ReThink Ability on Linkedin
Rethink Ability is a seven-part series on disability at work — and what true inclusion really takes.
Brought to you by The Fearless PX and The Elephant in the Org, in collaboration with Invisible Condition and The Performance Innovation Collective, it centers disabled voices and bold ideas to rethink culture
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Subscribe, leave a ★★★★★ review, and help us bring more elephants into the light.
🎙️ About the Show
The Elephant in the Org drops new episodes every two weeks starting April 2024.
Get ready for even more fearless conversations about leadership, psychological safety, and the future of work.
🎵 Music & Production Credits
🎶 Opening and closing theme music by The Toros
🎙️ Produced by The Fearless PX
✂️ Edited by Marion Anderson
⚠️ Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests, and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations' official policy or position.
Episode 2 “From Relief to Rage: The Emotional Rollercoaster of Disability”
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Danny Gluch: Welcome back to rethinking disability. Everyone. I'm Danny Gluch, and I'm joined by my co-host, Marion Anderson.
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Marion: Hello! Hello!
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Danny Gluch: Lia Seth.
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Lia Seth: Hello!
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Danny Gluch: And Don Ryan.
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Don Ryan: Really nice to be here. Thanks for having me.
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Danny Gluch: Awesome. Thank you. Everyone for joining. We've got a really great topic today, the emotional journey of disability. It's something that I you know. I read a lot, and it's something I haven't read as much about, you know. I heard the logistics of it, and navigating these things, and what it's like physically. But we don't hear a lot of the emotional ups and downs and the roller coasters, the the challenges that people face as they go from.
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Danny Gluch: you know, able-bodied or disabled, and having to work whatever their journey looks like. It's it's different for everyone, and we don't hear a lot about it. And I am so excited to have this panel to really dig in and hopefully give some insights and some expertise and some experience to what it's like.
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Marion: Absolutely. And roller coaster, I think, is the the right phrase, Danny. You know it's
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Marion: Everyone has a unique journey. Everyone has a unique story. Some people are born with
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Marion: a condition, and it's something that they've they've always known and never known any different.
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Marion: Others like myself, develop a disability much later in life, or certainly it's diagnosed much later in life, and that brings its own set of unique emotions and challenges to navigate. So I think that
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Marion: there's definitely no one. Size fits all here. Everyone has a really unique story, really unique experience. And we don't talk about it enough. I don't think.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. The the surprise factor, I think, is is not talked about. I was driving home from work one day on a little scooter, and I got hit by a truck right? You just you never know you're going to wake up one day in a hospital and be disabled. And that was really a unique experience to deal with.
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Danny Gluch: and you know, as I imagine, growing up your whole life and and having disabilities. But then, having to be in the workplace, and all of a sudden it's different than it ever has been and workplace to workplace. It's very different. So one of the questions I wanted to start with is what are one or 2 of the most prominent emotions, positive or negative, that you felt or or heard from close friends that they've experienced on this journey.
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Lia Seth: I know for me with my own experience. The 1st thing I felt was almost a sense of relief of community like I had immediately found my people. I understood suddenly. Oh, this is why I've always felt different. It's because I have
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Lia Seth: this condition. And this was before I even had a name for it. I just said, there's something in my body and my health and my genetics that's different. So the 1st feeling I felt, which I know is not everyone's story was a positive one, but that did quickly shift to this anxious exhaustion. With this realization of
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Lia Seth: I have to now explain this to people. I now have to tell this story again and again, and then, as I
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Lia Seth: got back into the real world, I was in college at the time as I got back to campus. And I was thinking, Okay, I'm going to have to, you know, ask for potentially accommodations. I'm going to have to, you know, make my needs known. It wasn't just explaining it. It was almost having to prove it again and again, and I don't think shame came into it right away. But there was definitely this big feeling of
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Lia Seth: of exhaustion and this feeling of defeat. A lot of time
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Lia Seth: of like is this even worth it to try to push for what I know I need, because I'm having to
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Lia Seth: really push. I'm having to ask for things. I'm having to almost beg for things. When I was in college I
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Lia Seth: had my senior year. I was supposed to have a dorm room on the 1st floor, right next to the front door of my building. It was going to be great. It was super convenient and resident. Life came to me, and they were like, actually, we need you to move to this room on the second floor, and I had to go through all kinds of hoops to say no. I would like to keep my 1st floor room. And actually, I need to keep that 1st floor room. I can't do those kind of stairs every day.
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Lia Seth: So it was a huge dichotomy to go between this like relief feeling. If there's a reason why I feel this way to this just totally beaten down feeling of
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Lia Seth: is anything going to get better? Is this ever going to be easy.
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Danny Gluch: It sounds like quite a heavy weight at the beginning of of a journey, where you're not sure the distance that's that's got to be a lot.
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Lia Seth: It was, yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Don Marion!
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Danny Gluch: Oh, go ahead, Marion!
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Marion: Okay, I can edit this. I'm good.
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Marion: similar to Leah, I think relief. I mean, I I
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Marion: had lots of physical issues, certainly through my adult life, but was not diagnosed with anything
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Marion: until the last few years, and in the space of
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Marion: 6 months was diagnosed with both Ptsd and Ehlers-danlos syndrome. So it was a double whammy and
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Marion: with Ehlers-danlos, which is a connective tissue disorder. I
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Marion: felt a huge amount of relief, I think similar to Leah, because it validated after decades of being dismissed by doctors and being told. It's just because you were a dancer. You're flexible when actually what was happening the entire time is that my joints were dislocating or partially dislocating, and I was being misdiagnosed, and I was in
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Marion: crazy amounts of pain, so that was validating. But then
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Marion: also I grieved really hard because I grieved for
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Marion: 20 years of being misdiagnosed and and not believed, and felt like I was faking and all of that, and that was really really tough.
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Marion: And then with Ptsd,
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Marion: I think I was initially in denial, because I was like I wasn't in the military. I haven't been in conflict, but no, I was a parentified child. I was caring for my dad since I was maybe about 4 years old. My dad had epilepsy, and then later dementia. He had a traumatic brain injury and
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Marion: was disabled, and and I grew up feeling shame then, because I didn't understand it, and I didn't understand
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Marion: why this was happening, and why my dad would have seizures, and why there was no one else to help, and all of these things so like
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Marion: when I was diagnosed with Ptsd. When I was older.
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Marion: that one was harder, almost to kind of like reconcile
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Marion: But now, now that I've kind of worked through that, it's very
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Marion: the right word liberating, empowering, I'm not sure. But when I think when you understand it, and you come to terms with it, and I've been very intent on taking channeling that
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Marion: and that pain and that experience and anxiety to be
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Marion: a force for good doing this work. I you know, as a force for good, or I certainly intend it to be so. I think that for me. I've been able to kind of redirect a lot of that into something positive and use it to support others, but
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Marion: definitely not easy, and I think, regardless of what age you are
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Marion: is a lot to to wrap your head around and navigate
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Danny Gluch: Don, what do you think?
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Don Ryan: Well, piggybacking on what Marian said in the introduction, that we have different experiences with
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Don Ryan: disabilities coming up at different times.
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Don Ryan: I think it's important to look at
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Don Ryan: the different kinds of disabilities. We have some physical disabilities that maybe someone has had in their entire lives. We have learning disabilities where they may not have been identified until someone was in high school or sometimes 30 years old. Right?
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Don Ryan: And then there are mental health issues that might be permanent and might be temporary, based on what's happening in somebody's life.
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Don Ryan: So both of you mentioned shame. So I won't talk about that. But when someone's dealing with mental health issues. I'll tell you for me. It was fear.
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Don Ryan: you know I I had an experience with a suicide in my family and was diagnosed with complex Ptsd, which is.
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Don Ryan: I won't go into the details that right now. Happy to, if you want me to. But I felt like
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Don Ryan: I dropped 20 IQ points.
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Danny Gluch: At at some point, and I would be sitting at work.
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Don Ryan: And I wouldn't be able to concentrate. Sometimes I was re-experiencing some things in the middle of the day, in the middle of a meeting.
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Don Ryan: I didn't know what was going to happen to my professional reputation. I didn't know how people were going to look at me.
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Don Ryan: so fear was one of the big emotions that really stuck with me.
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Don Ryan: And I still remember that, you know. So when I work with people in the work that I do. Now. I'm always looking at what's happening in somebody's family. What's happening? Good, bad indifference. So we can help people achieve their best professionally.
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Marion: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I think that transitions really well into, you know, we had some really big emotions coming up. Anxiety, shame, fear.
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Danny Gluch: I think, that a couple of those like, I think we all experience fear. We've watched scary movies, but anxiety and shame oftentimes you don't know. That's what you were feeling until later on. And and you sort of discover like, oh, my goodness! That that
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Danny Gluch: emotion, that thing I've been feeling and caring, that's what this is.
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Danny Gluch: And then you have to go through processing and and how to handle, and what? What are some of the ways that people as they're experiencing, whether it's fear, shame, anxiety.
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Danny Gluch: or any of the other emotions that they might be experiencing from managing disability in the workplace. What are some ways that they can
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Danny Gluch: process and and healthily go through and navigate these things.
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Marion: Think finding community to Leah's point earlier is so important, you know.
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Marion: to be able to talk to someone who understands what you're going through like truly understands. What you're going through, I think, is probably one of the
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Marion: the best things that you can do. Because it does feel very isolating. You feel alone, even when you're surrounded by people who have
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Marion: love for you, and pure intent, and want to support you until you
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Marion: are in that place, and truly can kind of understand. It is very hard to have
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Marion: an act of empathy. You can feel empathy, but you can't fully understand. And so I think that community is is huge. I think that that's something that we've found in our
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Marion: in the work that we've been doing here is is there's people that that get it, and that helps you process. So I think that is is definitely one and I also think, finding a language that you feel comfortable with to discuss. It is really important, and that's different for everyone.
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Marion: And it, you know, it's something that takes
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Marion: time. And I think that certainly for me, my language, and being able to articulate how I feel, has progressed
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Marion: the more
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Marion: comfortable I've got with my own disability, and the more positive influences that I've had around me through the community that I've built. But again, I think that that takes time, and I also think just being gracious to yourself, and knowing that it takes time, and that from a day of diagnosis you're not instantly like, Oh, okay, I'm good with this, like
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Marion: you're grieving. You're going through a grieving process for something that you are losing, or maybe losing, or maybe something that you never had, and I think that we don't necessarily think about that. Enough?
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Marion: So yeah, I think that
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Marion: all of that together, certainly for me, have been hugely important.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Danny Gluch: that that language, you know. Leo was talking about how so much of the burden was having to explain this, and
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Danny Gluch: it must take practice and a lot of emotional processing to be able to figure out what's comfortable when's comfortable in. You know these new contexts and new conversations for the 1st time.
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Danny Gluch: That's that's really powerful, Marion, Don, you you wanted to say something.
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Don Ryan: Mary and I completely agree that the community is the most important supportive factor that someone with a disability can have.
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Don Ryan: some of that is empathetic, as you mentioned, people who understand because they're going through some of the same things. And the 3 of you understand Hr. In a different way than I do. So there are also people that are there to understand, and they have programs and services set up. But until that community is identified
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Don Ryan: that can be a really hard place to be until that community is identified.
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Don Ryan: folks can feel really isolated. And I think that's another point to to mention here.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, absolutely.
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Danny Gluch: I've I've heard a lot of stories of people feeling like they're the 1st people to go through something when clearly they're not. But they just. They haven't been connected to that that community yet. They haven't heard their story told by others, and that's so important.
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Marion: And also I think that's where shame gets in the way, right like you're less likely to reach out and find that community investigate to source that community. If you're struggling with your own shame.
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Marion: you know, I mean, I I think, back to if you think about things in our in our history. Timeline, like the Aids epidemic, for example, I mean, you know.
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Marion: one of the biggest kind of epidemics where shame was probably one of the most prevalent emotions, and people were frightened to talk about it, because obviously the stigma and everything that's being attached. Now, God willing, we never go through a situation like that again. But it really does highlight. How
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Marion: the toxicity of that emotion, and how it can hold you back from finding the support and the comfort and the community that you need. So the more that we're able to talk about stuff like this and normalize it, I think hopefully, that helps break down some of those barriers, and reduces some of that stigma, and gives people the confidence to reach out and to source whatever help might be available. But it's still a big step to take, especially.
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Danny Gluch: It really is.
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Marion: Trying to process yourself.
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: Leah, you were wanting to chime in there.
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Lia Seth: Yeah, I guess just, you know, kind of echoing. There's more big emotions that we're all talking about, more of these big feelings, grief, isolation, loneliness. I agree that obviously community is really key. But Don, as you pointed out, people might not have that community right away. So
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Lia Seth: you have to kind of lean on the people that you do have in your life, who may or may not have that built in empathy. They may or may not have that shared lived experience. They may not know what it is to live through, what you're going through to experience what you're going through, to feel the pain that you're feeling, whether that's physical pain, emotional pain. I think that's true for almost
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Lia Seth: any big experience. You know, you could think about this in relation to disability. But there's a lot of experiences people can have where there's a similar feeling of shame, not I'm not trying to make light of any situation or any anyone's experiences. But I think about you know how common it is to hear about the shame people feel when they get laid off.
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Lia Seth: and they feel like
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Lia Seth: there's this feeling of like, how can anyone who hasn't been through this understand what this feels like? And then you start talking to other people who have got laid off. And you realize, like, Okay, well, I'm not completely alone. I'm not the only person who feels this way, and then you can even compare it to like
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Lia Seth: your 1st heartbreak, your 1st breakup, you know you think back to being a teenager and getting your heart broken for the 1st time, and how every emotion you feel when you're a teenager. Is that much bigger? No one could ever possibly understand what it feels to be me. What you know my parents don't get it. None of my friends can feel this intense feeling I have until you start talking about it, and then you realize everyone has that feeling. A lot of us are feeling these big things. And
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Lia Seth: I agree, it's it's the talking about it that really really helps break down those feelings of shame? Because I think the shame is tied completely, intricately, to the isolation.
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Danny Gluch: It really is. Shame is something that keeps you from
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Danny Gluch: feeling worthy of connection. So you're you're you're prohibited from from wanting to connect because you're scared. You're going to be rejected because you're feeling the shame.
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Danny Gluch: And this, this is something we we talked about when we were talking about. This episode was
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Danny Gluch: when someone finally gets the courage to reach out beyond the shame and to try to make a connection. Oftentimes it's not necessarily to the community that has shared this experience. But it's oftentimes to an ally, a friend, a colleague, a family member, a manager.
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Danny Gluch: and I just. It's such a fragile moment. What are what are some thoughts from both sides of how these allies can can handle it well, and and be
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Danny Gluch: be a good ally, and and you know, hold the shame, hold the courage, hold the hurt hold! Whatever! Feeling
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Danny Gluch: the person's experience through sharing any thoughts, there.
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Marion: Too many, so many thoughts, I think.
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Marion: I think one of the things that people are inclined to do, and this is human nature, and this comes from a place of goodness. But we're always inclined to go into solutions mode
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Marion: and you know you disclose to someone that you have X condition, and maybe you need Y accommodations. And and
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Marion: maybe it's still very new. And you're trying to process it yourself. And
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Marion: it's lovely when someone wants to support you and help solve the immediate problem. But sometimes you're you're not there yet yourself, and you're just trying to
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Marion: figure things out and and let things kind of percolate. And so sometimes it's just listening, isn't it?
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Marion: Sometimes those
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Marion: that that solutions oriented thing can come off as a microaggression. I know, I've experienced that I've talked about that a lot on our podcast. Where
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Marion: you know, is an Hr professional.
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Marion: You think that we somehow would know how to handle these situations, but they don't teach us this stuff in Hr. School. You know. These are the things that you're learning on the fly. And sadly. We're learning often through
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Marion: screwing it up.
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Marion: And that was certainly my experience, and and it was eye opening.
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Marion: But I believe at our core. Most of us are just humans trying to be good humans and be kind to each other. But when it comes to stuff like this we just don't know, and we're trying to figure it out as we go. So I think
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Marion: listening is the biggest one. Just listen, just open your ears, open your heart, let create space for that person.
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Danny Gluch: You know.
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Marion: And then
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Marion: it will become clear when it's probably the appropriate time to go into solutions mode. But I think usually it's that discomfort that we have when listening to something that's so real makes us jump into solutions mode. And sometimes it's just a little premature.
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Danny Gluch: Absolutely.
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Don Ryan: I think that's great point, Marion. And one thing that
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Don Ryan: I think folks often do is, how do we support the person who's going through a hard time.
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Don Ryan: One thing that I don't think happens often is, how do you support somebody else who's going through a hard time? Hr. Can have a program through, you know, insurance that's going to support someone with
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Don Ryan: therapy or with whatever they need at that point.
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Don Ryan: But we often don't have programs that are there to say, hey! As a team we're all working together.
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Don Ryan: How do we learn how to support someone?
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Don Ryan: And just to muddy the waters a little bit more. You're going to have some people that are going to say, that's not my job.
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Don Ryan: you know. I'm here to do a job I'm here to to focus on the technical aspect of the work that I'm doing.
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Don Ryan: I it's not really my role to take care of somebody else who might be on my team.
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Don Ryan: Then you might have somebody else who feels opposite. And then you're gonna have a 3rd person who might be inappropriate in the way that they're supporting somebody by asking too many questions. By so so, is it possible that we could develop something, even if it's a, you know, like an online training once a year for 15 min to remind people that
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Don Ryan: at the end of the day we're all human.
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Don Ryan: and if there's a way to support people, we're going to be more productive. We're going to have a better work environments. We're going to be more creative as a team.
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Don Ryan: And people are going to want to work with us.
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Don Ryan: It's it's just a thought. But I don't think there's a lot out there about it.
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Lia Seth: I kind of hate the idea that we need a training to remind people that we're humans. But I I mean, you're not wrong, don like. I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with managers to be like. Hey, have you like?
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Lia Seth: Asked this person a question. Have you checked in, you know, like you're you're just saying, oh, this person's, you know, performance isn't up to par like, do you know what might be going on? They're a human. And
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Lia Seth: and we have to. We do have to remind people. And you know, when we think about being in Hr like, Oh, my gosh, well, this person has asked for medical leave, and I don't know what to do, and I don't know how to, so it's like, well, you give them the resources they need. And you ask if they're okay. If there's anything else you can do to support, like, what would you do if a friend came to you and said, I need to get this surgery.
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Lia Seth: you'd say, Oh, my gosh! How are you feeling? Can I help?
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Lia Seth: And everyone everyone you encounter is a person, whether you're working with them, whether it's a friend, whether it's a family member. And you know better or worse. Sometimes we do need that reminder.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it's different in different cultures. But I know that it took, you know, learning in my twenties that that's how you respond to even friends who have, you know, illnesses and go through. Stuff is like, oh, wait! Can I make you Lasagna one day, you know, like
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Danny Gluch: that's I care through Lasagna. That's what I do.
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Marion: Wait what! You've never made me Lasagna.
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Don Ryan: And I'm repeating what Marian said. But we often learn that, Danny, through mistakes.
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Don Ryan: and when you're at work you don't want to make that mistake, then somebody's making a complaint about you. So it's a different aspect than having a friend and making that mistake. But that's that's how all of us learn.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, that's such a good point, Don. It really is. And I think there is a level of
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Danny Gluch: the importance of maintaining work where we don't feel psychologically safe to do something where? Oh, no.
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Danny Gluch: I made a mistake. And now I'm going to learn from it. So it's it's just I'm not going to say anything. I'm not going to interact with this person, because there's too many, you know, buttons I could press that could get me in trouble. And I and I think you know, maybe a 15 min training would be interesting. I'd love to see someone develop that.
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Danny Gluch: So my next thought, or what I'd love to hear from you guys is what are some like really notable events or interactions, whether it was a moment in time, or you know, something you experienced or someone something someone did for you. That was a really notable standout in how it either was helpful
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Danny Gluch: or disparaging in this this process of of handling the emotions of going through. And you know.
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Danny Gluch: working with your disability.
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Marion: Think it was you know, when kind of
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Marion: discussing with colleagues like like my sort of diagnosis, my or my not diagnosis. But I guess my official decree is being disabled
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Marion: happened around the same time that I was starting a new job, and so I was kind of going in very much intentionally like, well, I need to advocate for myself, and and I'm just going to call it from day one. I want to be very transparent about it. And so I went in with that real intentionality, and I think that
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Marion: helped.
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Marion: But it also helped. I work in human resources, and I know the law, and I know how things should be done. And so that gives me probably an extra level of comfortability, I think, whereas I think someone who isn't in that
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Marion: profession, or maybe someone
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Marion: earlier on in their their life journey may not have developed the same confidence or the same, you know. Comfort of being able to kind of speak up to your own needs. And so I think
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Marion: being able to do that certainly does help. But I think when you're greeted with
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Marion: again going back to listening, someone who may struggle to empathize because they've not experienced that themselves.
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Marion: but they are able to really listen and say, hey, I don't know what you're going through.
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Marion: but I know that I I'm here for you, and I want to support you, and let's figure this out like for me. That's probably been one of the best experiences
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Marion: sees.
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Marion: I I think the worst experiences, and has been
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Marion: the fight for basic equipment that I've needed to be able to function and to to overcome that
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Marion: that fear of you think I'm too much. And you think I'm asking for too much, and you think I think I'm special.
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Marion: and that might not be what that person thinks at all. But certainly I'm going to project my own crap onto them.
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Marion: but I think, having to fight for basic things that you need to be able to function comfortably. That's certainly one of the hardest and accommodations should not be that hard they really shouldn't be. It shouldn't be such a
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Marion: performance to get them in place.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah. And it seems like such a place of duality where you're you're maybe angry. You're wanting to fight for this, but there's also the fear of like if I fight, am I making this worse for my professional prospects and my standing in the in the team? Oh, my goodness.
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Marion: It's true, it's a reality. Am I going to be punished for this, you know, and then we go back to psychological safety? Right? What's the recrimination? What's the blowback here on me advocating for my needs?
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Danny Gluch: Yeah.
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Lia Seth: And sometimes it's not even accommodations. I mean, I remember I joined a company that I was really excited about, and you know the culture felt really good. People were really respectful. People were really positive. I actually had a great accessibility experience. They built it into the interview process like it was they were really inclusive.
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Lia Seth: And then one of the senior leaders used an ablest word in a team meeting.
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Lia Seth: and I had that moment, and it was really early on. It was like in my 1st month, I think, at the company. And I had this moment like, Hey, this person? Okay, they just said something, you know, really hurtful, a word that they might not even realize was hurtful. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. But you know, do I say something? What will that do to my relationship with this person where I've never spoken to this person, one on one? They're a leader. I know they're open to learning. But I'm new here.
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Lia Seth: You know. What? What do I do? And that calculus, of course, changes when you're new to an organization, or if the other person several levels above you, even if you're well established, you have a relationship, even if you, you know, you know that that person is open and receptive. There's always that that calculus that happens of like, what's the trade off of me saying something versus not saying something, and it really it goes back to. It's isolating because you're having to do this mental math and think about.
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Lia Seth: Is it worth it? Is it worth it to say something, and like, stand up for myself and for this community of people. You know I'm hurt by this. Other people here might be hurt by this. They didn't mean anything by it. But do I want to potentially risk the relationship by saying something.
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Don Ryan: Danny, when I think about your question.
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Don Ryan: I go back to a social work philosophy called person-centered thinking.
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Don Ryan: and in a just a nutshell. It is you want the person who's who's dealing with that disability, or the person who's going through that hard time, or the person who needs services to decide what's important to them and what they need at that moment. So when I think about your question, I think that person we can't have our own
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Don Ryan: prejudgment about what somebody would need. Let's just say somebody has a spouse or a child who dies.
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Don Ryan: Most people might say they need time off, and we're going to give them time off. Some people may need to work through it.
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Don Ryan: Maybe maybe that person went through cancer, and they were sitting at a hospice bed forever.
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Don Ryan: and they needed to go back to work right away, and nobody understands it. Maybe it was something sudden, like a car accident, and and someone's still in shock.
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Don Ryan: and that might change next week. So
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Don Ryan: the key for me is when you have a situation like that is, it's all about good communication. How do we respectfully talk to the person about what they need.
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Don Ryan: both personally, but also
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Don Ryan: so they can continue to do their job and and have this self assessment about whether they're being effective in the work that we're doing and how we can support them
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Don Ryan: again, both personally and professionally, when they go through something difficult like that.
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Danny Gluch: Wow!
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Marion: Hmm.
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Danny Gluch: That's absolutely added.
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Danny Gluch: Seen.
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Marion: Add into that. I think, yeah, like one of the things that
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Marion: I talked about grief earlier on, and we grieve for
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Marion: what it is that we feel that we may be losing or never had, or whatever, and good, if
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Marion: the thing I learned about grief when my dad passed away was. You always think that grief is going to be linear like it's really bad. And then over time it gets less and less and less. And I think, at a macro scale, that's true. But on a micro scale it's certainly not that linear. It's much more like bad days, good days up down all over the place like you can have a run of days where you're like. I'm great, I'm fine. And then all of a sudden, bang!
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Marion: And I think that that's very much the same as the grief we experience as we're handling as we're navigating our own disabilities.
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Marion: And so I think that to that, to Dawn's Point, you know it isn't linear, and it's not one size fits all, and we have to be much more person centered. And how we approach these things, because what's true for me is not true for Leah. Right? So.
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Marion: but that in itself, when you think about it that way, seems like from an organizational standpoint.
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Marion: Holy shit! How do you navigate that? You know? Because it really is. That's huge.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, it's the problem with equity, right? Equality. Let's just treat everyone the same. You go through something. You get a week of this kind of leave. But that's exactly why equality doesn't work. But equity, you know, and what Don was talking about
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Danny Gluch: does. So I guess the follow up question is, how do we make that more real right? Because that takes such a level of emotional maturity, emotional intelligence in leadership and in policymaking?
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Danny Gluch: How is it that organizations, or even social circles, can start to bake in some of these kinds of questions and these kinds of responses to their people who are going through stuff.
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Danny Gluch: I love asking that question rather than answering it, because it's way easier to ask than answer.
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Marion: It's not. It's not a straightforward answer, you know.
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Marion: I think that it's a toolbox, right? I think it's about having lots of different things in your toolbox that you can lean into, and that you can pull on like, you know, in Hr teams we have certain things in our toolbox. We have eap, and we have insurance and things like that. But it's taken that. Beyond that, it's taken that to the next level and helping curate psychologically safe language curate,
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Marion: groups that understand that are able to, I guess, like with ergs. Right? You know, you find a community. You find people that understand that you can lean into. I think that these are just examples of of tools that we can have at our disposal. That, again might be right for
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Marion: Leah tomorrow, but not right for Marion until next week. You know that sort of thing.
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Marion: but you know I'm I'm curious to hear from from my friends here as well the things that they've experienced or seen that have worked well, because toolbox are infinite, right? We have to just keep adding to them. There's certainly no limitation here. I'd like to think.
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Don Ryan: I think the answer for me is
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Don Ryan: excellent communication, not good communication, but excellent means.
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Don Ryan: You need to know, even even if it's on my agenda to talk about how Lee is doing.
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Don Ryan: I need to understand that Leah may not be able to talk about that, and I'm going to talk to her about it in 3 days.
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Don Ryan: I think being a good manager is all about good communication positives, negatives.
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Don Ryan: Nobody should go into an annual review
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Don Ryan: and not know exactly what is going to be in that review. That manager, if they're doing a good job, they're talking to that person about their positives and their needs throughout the entire year.
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Don Ryan: This is the same thing.
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Don Ryan: It's all about. What do you need? How do we communicate?
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Don Ryan: How can you tell me what you need, and how can I offer something without being intrusive? And once you have that good communication, professional communication, not a personal relationship.
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Don Ryan: Then I think you are ahead of the game when it comes to dealing with this kind of stuff.
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Lia Seth: And it's also not just a conversation you have once right? Because, like, we've said.
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Lia Seth: what do you need? That answer could be one thing one week and a week later it might be something else. It might be like, I've just gone through this really traumatic experience. But I'm kind of coping by just focusing on work. And I'm just doubling down on that. And that's a great distraction for me. And in a week the answer might be, actually, I need some time to deal with some logistics. Or actually, I can no longer focus. You know what I've just realized, that my brain is no longer in a place where I can be productive, and I need to step back for a little bit.
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Lia Seth: So it's it's not a conversation you can have once. And I agree, Marianne, it's not a a 1. Size fits all a toolbox. It's a great way of looking at it versus like
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Lia Seth: a you know. Think about like an Ikea, how to build a couch booklet. It's not that. It's just. It's just all the tools, and you can't follow a step. One insert screw a into hole. Y. It's
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Lia Seth: here are some different tools.
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Lia Seth: Try some out and see see what's gonna work this week, and then keep trying because it'll change.
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Danny Gluch: Because we're human.
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Marion: Yeah. And I think that's the key word layout. Right is human, is we just? We forget even what's in the title Human Resources, which I hate to be honest, there's so much baggage attached to it. But human is the critical point there, and we forget especially, I think.
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Marion: the bigger the organization the more of a number you become, and to be able to bring that back to a really human level
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Marion: is so important here, and and not to lose sight of that, and I think it's something we just have to keep talking about constantly.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, I think you know, you guys all touched on it. What Don was talking about the excellent communication and the the burden of having to talk about it for the 1st time when you're not comfortable, and you haven't found that language yet. And being able to be that.
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Danny Gluch: you know, experienced mature manager, supervisor, who can help ease that and take some of the burden off so that someone can feel comfortable as they find their language. Still having the conversation.
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Danny Gluch: and that that search certainly takes a lot of of skill as a communicator. And you know.
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Danny Gluch: boy, do we talk a lot about how managers have a tough, tough job, and
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Danny Gluch: you know, it's it's really important, though.
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Marion: Yeah. And I. And I also think we have to be as the manager. We have to be patient with ourselves. And do you know what you probably are going to put your foot in your mouth at 1 point you probably are going to say something that was maybe a little
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Marion: not well positioned, or or a little less delicate.
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Marion: and that's part of learning, and you've got to give yourself a little bit of grace and know that your heart is good, your heart is pure, and be able to say, Hey, do you know what I'm really sorry like? I probably didn't frame that in the best way.
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Marion: and as someone who's been navigating this journey. If some when someone says that to me, I'm gonna give them a whole lot more, you know grace and bandwidth there and be like, it's cool. It's okay. We're just figuring the show together
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Marion: as opposed to someone who is maybe not as
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Marion: gracious, and thinks that they know. And it really just comes off as a microaggression. So it's okay to to fuck it up. You are going to do it. We all do it. We're all human, right, just just acknowledge that your heart is pure, your heart is good. You just want to help and let the person that you're working with guide you to what they need, and maybe try not to assume that that you know because you might you might not. You know.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, absolutely being able to say sorry. And you know, not be scared. That, admitting a flaw is admitting that there's a flaw sort of, you know, can't say issue. Otherwise we assume there's an issue.
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Marion: She was a human.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, no, it really does. And it allows for that connection that allows for really good communication. And and I think a lot of
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Danny Gluch: a lot of people, especially in in Hr. Get scared to to be human. It's we have to be, you know.
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Danny Gluch: legally responsible for everything on behalf of the organization. And it, you know, it gets it gets hard to be human and connect. And and it's that's a barrier to communication that Don was talking about.
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Don Ryan: But if you do it, if you do it well.
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Don Ryan: there's a beautiful moment that can happen where someone comes back to you and says.
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Don Ryan: I just want to tell you I appreciate it, and I'm not in the same place that I was a month ago.
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Don Ryan: and I'm going to come to you if I need that support again, and and that is fantastic. Then you know you did your job well, because someone's able to come back to you and say, Not necessarily thank you. The thank you doesn't matter, but I'm good now. I don't need you to check up on me all the time, and and then, you know, you're in a different place. And again, it's all about good communication.
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Marion: Yeah, that is the thank you. When someone says, Hey.
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Marion: I'm in a better place like that. That's all you need. That's that's the gratifying moment. You know where you know that.
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Marion: Okay, I put something good back into the world, and it's not the thank you. It's knowing that another human
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Marion: has benefited from from an action. And what more could we ask for.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, Leah, did you have something to add?
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Lia Seth: Just yeah. That that moment of.
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Lia Seth: you know. Not necessarily. Thank you. But you know
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Lia Seth: you gave me the resources or the space to
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Lia Seth: do what I needed to do, to feel what I needed to feel, to figure things out that that's
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Lia Seth: that's worth it. That's amazing. That's like the highlight of my job is when someone says like this helped.
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Danny Gluch: That's amazing. And it's such a emotionally rewarding experience. And I think a lot of people who get into leadership and Hr. Want to
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Danny Gluch: be people leaders. They want to help. People have good experiences. And
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Danny Gluch: it's not all roses. We are human, and it's really tough. And I loved all of your perspectives. Thank you so much for sharing, and I just wanted to ask if you had any
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Danny Gluch: final thoughts, whether it's something that you would like people to keep in mind, or words of wisdom, or something from your experience of helping
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Danny Gluch: managers or individuals navigate this journey of emotions and disability in the workplace.
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Lia Seth: I don't know if we've used the word exactly, but I think so much of what we've talked about really comes back to trust. And that relationship between 2 people, I think, especially today. Given how many folks are fully virtual, fully remote, maybe hybrid that can be harder to build than it was when we were sitting in the same office, sitting in the cube right across from each other right down the hall. One thing that's been really helpful for me is
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Lia Seth: being really intentional and almost formalizing the casual relationships. So like scheduling time to just be human with someone else, and just check in be like, Hey, this is a space where, like we can talk about whatever's kind of top of mind for you, or we can just chat, because if we were in an office together we would run into each other in the kitchen. We'd say, How was your weekend? How's your family? What's going on.
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Lia Seth: And you have to kind of build that space to have those relationships. So if you are in that virtual environment, if you are remote, if you're not next to that person.
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Lia Seth: Make sure that you're building those relationships, because that's really the key thing. It comes back to community. If you're fully remote. And you, you know, have your weekly one on one with your manager and your weekly team stand up, and your monthly all hands, and that's the only time you talk to people, you're not going to have any kind of relationship, and when things go poorly you're not going to feel comfortable talking to anyone, and if you're that manager, your employees aren't going to feel comfortable talking to you, if the only time you see them is, you know, once or twice a week.
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Lia Seth: So you've got to check in and be human.
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Danny Gluch: That's amazing.
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Marion: Stuffing things, Danny stuffing things.
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Danny Gluch: I was gonna bring it up. We used to have. So we were a, you know, dispersed workforce. A lot of us were in Southern California. But we were, you know, virtual. We almost never met in person, and we would have regular stuff and things meetings. Sometimes we would do stuff. Sometimes we do things. It's whatever people needed. And it was. It was exactly what Leah talked about. And you know it's it's really wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that, Leah. Mary, do you have anything to add other than stuff and things.
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Marion: Stuff and things. I mean, that's it. Probably one of those gorgeous things about when we worked together the 1st time was that the natural organic growth of that initiative, and
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Marion: it works because the strength in the relationships, the trust that when you know the shit's hitting the fan, you learn very quickly who's there for you and who you can lean into, and I think that you can't underestimate the power of just building those relationships kind of
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Marion: not off book, but certainly not focused on the day-to-day production, but actually really focusing on the strength of the relationships of those around you. So there's there's that. But
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Marion: over and above that, I think from a leadership perspective is just
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Marion: Remember that no one expects you to know everything.
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Marion: You might be the leader. But you you might need to be led by by the person. And that's okay, too. That's part of leadership.
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Marion: and just
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Marion: cut yourself some slack. You don't have to carry it all alone. You don't need to have all the answers. Just have a good heart. Be open. Listen.
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Marion: lesson, and these things have got a way of figuring themselves out. That's it.
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Marion: No.
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Danny Gluch: Don any final words.
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Don Ryan: One of my favorite expressions is
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Don Ryan: today is the 1st day of the rest of my life, and
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Don Ryan: usually I say it because I made a lot of mistakes the day before.
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Don Ryan: I make mistakes every day.
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Don Ryan: But seriously.
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Don Ryan: that that freeze helps me start over every day and know that each day. I'm building on
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Don Ryan: on something that happened yesterday, and it gives me the the grace to move forward. And that's what helps me when when I think about that that question, David?
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Danny Gluch: Thank you. It's it's so interesting that, you know. Here we're talking about work. We're talking about disabilities, but we're also talking about trust and fear and shame, and grace and grace is such a great thing to close on, because I think
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Danny Gluch: it allows us to accept each other, being human, and I think it breaks down some of those barriers that shame puts up that keeps people from connecting. And that's so important. And that trust that Leah was talking about. Thank you for bringing that up explicitly. That was that was really important. Because that's what we need. We need to trust that I'm going to be able to connect, and that I can be honest with you, and that you're going to have Grace if I make mistakes and vice versa. And
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Danny Gluch: that's that's really powerful stuff.
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Marion: I think. Just remember that we're all just here having a human experience, and
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Marion: we're all just trying to walk each other home at the end of the day right? Just keep each other safe. Look out for each other, be kind, be gracious, and
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Marion: and that's it, and just keep that human experience at the forefront.
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Danny Gluch: Yeah, absolutely.
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Danny Gluch: Thank you all for for sharing your experience and your insights. Thank you all for listening. Be sure to be on the lookout for other podcasts in this series, like subscribe below so that you can be notified. Do a little bell thing if if that's on your platform, so you can be notified when the new episodes come out. We're really looking forward to this journey with you guys. Thank you.
