ReThink Ability Episode 4 - “You Don’t Look Disabled”: Stereotypes We’re Still Fighting

What’s the most common workplace stereotype about disabled people?
According to our live “Family Feud”-style panel game: "They’re not as capable as their peers."

In this fiery and funny episode of Rethink Ability, host Danny Gluch is joined by five powerhouse advocates and professionals to unpack the lazy assumptions, outdated beliefs, and quiet biases that disabled folks still face at work — especially if their disability isn’t visible.

We’re getting real about:

• Why being “well-intentioned” isn’t enough
• The real cost of rest — and why it’s not accessible for everyone
• Spoon theory, short-term disability nightmares, and energy budgeting
• How workplaces can move beyond performative allyship
• Turning accommodations into standard practice (hint: they cost less than your happy hour)

Whether you're navigating your own disability, managing someone who is, or ready to unlearn what society taught you, this episode brings both insight and action.

🎧 Featuring:

• Greer Procich – Founder, Rethink Ability & Head of Delivery, Sproutwise
• Lia Seth – Director of People, Cylinder & Accessibility Queen
• Dr. Akilah Cadet – Founder/CEO, Change Cadet & Author, White Supremacy is All Around
• AnnE Diemer – Founder, aedHR & HR contradiction-embracer
• Aubria Ralph, Esq. – CEO, Scrappy Girl Project & Creator of The Quantum Lead®

Rethink Ability is a limited seven-part podcast series that explores the often unseen dimensions of disability in the workplace — and what it takes to build environments where everyone can thrive.

Brought to you by The Fearless PX and the team behind The Elephant in the Org, in collaboration with ReThink Ability,  Invisible Condition and The Performance Innovation Collective, the series centers the lived experiences of disabled employees, HR leaders, and workplace change-makers. Across seven honest, human, and action-driven episodes, we unpack the gap between intention and impact and explore h

🐘 Connect with Us:

🚀 Follow The Fearless PX on LinkedIn: The Fearless PX
📩 Got a hot take or a workplace horror story? Email Marion, Cacha, and Danny at elephant@thefearlesspx.com
🎧 Catch every episode of The Elephant in the Org: All Episodes Here

🚀Your Hosts on Linkedin:

🐘Marion Anderson

🐘Danny Gluch

🐘Cacha Dora

💬 Like what you hear?
Subscribe, leave a ★★★★★ review, and help us bring more elephants into the light.

🎙️ About the Show

The Elephant in the Org drops new episodes every two weeks starting April 2024.
Get ready for even more fearless conversations about leadership, psychological safety, and the future of work.

🎵 Music & Production Credits

🎶 Opening and closing theme music by The Toros
🎙️ Produced by The Fearless PX
✂️ Edited by Marion Anderson

⚠️ Disclaimer

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests, and do not necessarily reflect any affiliated organizations' official policy or position.

Transcript

0:0:0SPEAKER_04 : Hey everyone, it's Greer. Thanks so much for tuning in. This podcast is part of the Rethinkability Initiative, where we're focused on building more accessible, inclusive workplaces for disabled team members. If that's work you care about, join us October 28th through 30th for a free live virtual event. It's open to anyone ready to learn, unlearn, and take real action. We'll have expert-led sessions, honest conversations, and tangible tools you can take back to your organization, head to rethink-ability.com to learn more. Hope to see you there.

0:0:55SPEAKER_03 : Welcome to Rethinkability, a limited podcast series about what it really means to create inclusive workspaces for people with disabilities, especially when those disabilities aren't visible. We're here to challenge assumptions, amplify lived experiences, and move the conversation from performative policy to real, practical change. This series is brought to you by the creators behind the Elephant in the Org podcast, the Fearless PX, in collaboration with the Invisible Condition and the Performance Innovation Collective. If you're in HR or leadership, and you're serious about inclusion, this one's for you. Let's go.

0:1:38SPEAKER_00 : You're listening to Rethinkability. Today's episode is titled, You Don't Look Disabled, Stereotypes We're Still Fighting. I'm Danny Glutch and I'm here with my co-hosts Greer Prosich and Leah Sait. We're diving into the assumptions, judgments, and everyday biases that disabled people continue to face at work, especially when their disabilities are invisible. The truth is, the problem isn't disability, it's how society and workplaces choose to misunderstand ability. We're lucky to be joined in this conversation by three incredible panelists. Dr. Akhila Kadeh, founder of Change Cadet and author of White Supremacy is all around. We're also joined by Annie Diemer, inclusive policy and HR leader, and Aubria Ralph, attorney, strategist, and unapologetic advocate for disability justice.

0:2:27SPEAKER_00 : Together, they unpack how stereotypes get reinforced through systems, language, and culture, and what it takes to challenge them. It's time to rethink ability. Welcome everyone to the episode about stereotypes, biases, and emotional responses around disabilities in the workplace. Our expert panel and guests here are going to go through and really dig deep. We're really excited and we're going to start off with a game, making sure that we have the best people who know disabilities in the workplace. I polled a hundred adjacent people about their most common stereotypes about disabilities in the workplace. So panelists, whenever you're ready, raise your hand and you'll get points based on how high it ranked in the responses.

0:3:14SPEAKER_00 : Dr. Akilah Gadet, I saw an unmute. What is your first guess?

0:3:20SPEAKER_07 : Well, we aren't smart. We aren't smart.

0:3:24SPEAKER_00 : Not as capable as their peers. Number one stereotype in the workplace. The number one. Oh my goodness. I thought that one would take a while.

0:3:36SPEAKER_02 : Well, I'm disabled and I'm also black and I'm also a woman, so yes.

0:3:42SPEAKER_00 : Leah, I saw a hand.

0:3:45SPEAKER_06 : I'm going to say that a common one is that young people can't be disabled.

0:3:50SPEAKER_00 : Ooh, that did not come up. That's a good one. That is quite the assumption. I saw Aubria.

0:4:0SPEAKER_01 : Yeah, so if it's not visible, it's not real.

0:4:4SPEAKER_00 : Absolutely, that one's on there. That one was number seven. And Greer, I saw a hand, goodness.

0:4:10SPEAKER_04 : I think Aubria might have beaten me to it, but I was going to definitely say that we're faking it, that it's not as bad as it seems, and we're taking advantage of the system.

0:4:22SPEAKER_00 : Taking advantage of the system, looking for an excuse to get out of work or assignments, number five.

0:4:31SPEAKER_05 : Okay, I'll throw out there. It's a burden or inconvenience for the business.

0:4:36SPEAKER_00 : Their accommodations are costly or expensive. Number three. There we go. Got a couple others. Anybody? I can do the Steve Harvey style and reveal the common answers.

0:4:49SPEAKER_04 : Yeah, let's do that.

0:4:50SPEAKER_00 : All right. The number six was cannot work in some fast paced environments. Number five was the looking to get out of works or assignments. Number four, cannot handle failure or criticism. Who said that? That's wild. A number of people. That's one of the stereotypes. The stereotype was, you need to be careful about giving them criticism or pointing out flaws or failures in the work.

0:5:18SPEAKER_02 : This is coming from a perspective of a non-disabled person having feelings. Yeah. We deal with failure all the time. We navigate disability. So whatever. We don't even think about that.

0:5:28SPEAKER_00 : Absolutely. Wow. And the number two, disabled people are more consistently absent from work.

0:5:36SPEAKER_04 : I think disabled people are more likely to manage their time and energy better to be able to show up better to work.

0:5:43SPEAKER_06 : I was going to say there's times that I have been like on the floor in pain, like barely coherent. And I'm like, I know that I've got a presentation I have to do. I'm going to pull it together for these 45 minutes and then I'm going back to the floor. That is that is wild to me because I feel like I hear people who are like, oh I like sprained my ankle I've got to go to the hospital do physical therapy I'm like I sprained my ankle all the time if I went to the hospital every time I twisted my ankle.

0:6:13SPEAKER_02 : I'd never leave I was in tachycardia on a plane Went to have an urgent care appointment with an irregular EKG was sent to Cedars-Sidon I had to talk in LA went to ER. I Had to have my heart medication adjusted And I had a student put in my IV, so I was bleeding out all over the place, which was fine. And they wrapped me up and I went and did a keynote. And then I got on a plane the next day and I came back home.

0:6:41SPEAKER_04 : I don't think anybody has anything to say to that.

0:6:44SPEAKER_01 : I mean, I was going to say mine, but now I'll just shut my mouth and we can move on.

0:6:50SPEAKER_00 : Oh, my goodness. We all just collective shock. But the stereotype versus the reality is honestly, that's the problem. Where do these stereotypes come from? They come from social messages, from media, from all these implicit things. We're not blaming people for having these stereotypes. They exist. This is what society thinks. That's not the reality. Well, that's fair because they should update their beliefs. Absolutely. Because it's not the reality. And you just shared what the reality is. You all shared, you know, I get a little cold and I'm like, I'm not coming into work. And it's not nearly what someone with chronic illness has to deal with.

0:7:30SPEAKER_00 : And they're always there.

0:7:33SPEAKER_02 : So you haven't even talked about how we are all women identifying folks. And we also are on our periods once a month. and we still navigate things. So, you know, I think when it comes to folks talking about like, I don't know, this pity thing and what we can and cannot do, we're not even acknowledged as women who function just with a menstrual cycle doing things. And a lot of us have chronic conditions that can exacerbate those symptoms as well. And so yes, Danny, some men have a cold or flu and cannot function. I want to celebrate you for sore throat being here, being present and doing an excellent job.

0:8:14SPEAKER_00 : Thank you. If my voice is raspy, that's why. Fun story. In the fourth grade, I had some weird condition in my stomach that the doctor said, oh, this is like as close to what we can figure out menstrual cramps would feel like. But for men, I missed most of the fourth grade because of that. Like I could not go to school.

0:8:32SPEAKER_02 : I love this so much for you. This is why you're already the better guy than most.

0:8:39SPEAKER_04 : The empathy is there. He gets it. He's been there. He's felt it. Danny, thank you.

0:8:43SPEAKER_00 : I don't understand how anyone gets anything done in those conditions.

0:8:47SPEAKER_04 : But especially anything that I say during my luteal phase should never be listened to or taken seriously. So there are elements of it that I just don't even want to be present for.

0:8:57SPEAKER_06 : I will say some of my conditions, my symptoms were so bad. I actually got a full hysterectomy recently. So I no longer menstruate, which is one of the best things that has ever happened to me. I know I'm sharing this on a podcast. I don't care. Truly one of the best things that's ever happened to me that I no longer have to deal with. all the symptoms that came with it and it's not just the pain it's the like mental shifts and the fact that I was able to yeah get up go to school go to work every month for years and function yeah that's that and that hundreds of thousands of women are doing that same thing today, right now.

0:9:40SPEAKER_00 : Yeah, I was gonna say that's what the stereotypes miss. What are some of the other things that our listeners would like to hear or be informed about, especially those men who aren't experiencing this right now? What are some of those things that the stereotypes really miss?

0:9:55SPEAKER_05 : I was actually gonna say something different. I don't know if that takes off.

0:9:58SPEAKER_00 : Go for it, go for it.

0:9:58SPEAKER_05 : I wanted to yes and what folks are saying of like, this amazing resilience that folks with disabilities, that women, that other people who menstruate, et cetera, like bring to the table is impressive. And also, as much as we're cheering this on, can we also cheer on resting? Can we also cheer on? Like, Dr. Kade, I'm so impressed that you still did that keynote and like so many props to you for that. And can we get rid of the expectation that you have to do that? Can we encourage folks to rest more? Can HR make taking six days more accessible?

0:10:33SPEAKER_05 : Like, I think this resilience is amazing and impeccable. And can we make it unnecessary? You know what I mean?

0:10:41SPEAKER_02 : The rest is a privilege and we have to talk about the intersectionality of that, right? Before I go on any further for those who are listening, I am a stunning, beautiful black woman with hazel eyes and my curls are on top of my head. and my eyes get me whatever they want because they're hazel. I'm sitting in my office. You can see my book behind me, white supremacists all around, notes from a black disabled woman in a white world. But let's talk about intersectionality and privilege to risk. So I'm a founder and CEO of my own company.

0:11:11SPEAKER_02 : I have a mini empire that I run. I don't have someone else who can go do that keynote. if they don't do that keynote, I don't get the money. And I get a lot of money to talk, right? And so sometimes I have to push myself through things that are harder. Intersectionality. I'm a black person. I'm a woman. I'm disabled. I don't get paid the same as a white person. I don't get paid the same as a white disabled person. I'm fortunate enough to have my own company and be able to make money and have endless earning potential, which is another form of privilege where I can Factor in some rest.

0:11:42SPEAKER_02 : I always take six weeks off minimum a year I'm so they can rest but not everyone has that privilege to rest It could be the same person who's on SSDI Who people feel like they're just at home doing nothing, but they're managing their health. They're navigating this They're trying to find a little way to bring in supplemental income I can't tell you how many people have said I'm saving up to buy your book because I'm on SSDI My book is $29 Right. And I think that's really important. So the person who can bring in some supplemental income that's doing math every month, they have to think about, you know, how they can show up.

0:12:20SPEAKER_02 : I think about Priscilla, like, which is a wonderful movie, and a woman who's disabled who lost her job. and she couldn't afford the additional things that she wanted and her job gave her just the bare minimum to still get her benefits, right? And so we have to really, really be careful when we talk about rest. I would love to lay down all day, but no one has decided to be my benefactor and I have not married up.

0:12:43SPEAKER_04 : Yeah, I want to jump in on that just a little bit because I have been somebody who has had to administer, you know, short term disability and all of these sorts of things in the past. And I've done a really bad job at it because I haven't been trained or given the information to be supportive. And then all of a sudden I found myself in the position of needing the short term disability. I had no idea how to navigate it. I was told by the insurance company I wasn't disabled enough. so I had to take three months unpaid leave in order to just get my medicine in my system.

0:13:14SPEAKER_04 : And so another piece of this I really think is there's just so many barriers for us to even be able to rest. Because even though I took those three months off, I was dealing with insurance companies, I was trying to prove I was disabled, I was taking medicine that was ruining my body. And so coming back after three months of leave was the least stressful thing that I had done because I hadn't had the opportunity to just decompress and focus on my health and do all that stuff. So even if we have the privilege to take advantage of something like short-term disability leave, doesn't always work out in our favor in a lot of ways.

0:13:55SPEAKER_01 : Like this is like right up my alley on the rest. And so I'll go back to when I was like a 21 year old in college, and I had a full time job and a part time job. And I was helping out my mom with my my sister. And oh, yeah, I was still an undergrad taking way too many credits because I was pre med. chemistry, English, double major, philosophy, psychology minor, because why not? Right. And, and I was hit with chronic fatigue and I couldn't see anything and I couldn't hear. And it was funny because, and then my mom was like, oh, you can use my health insurance.

0:14:49SPEAKER_01 : And I went and like, we did all these tests and the doctor was like, dude, you just need to rest. And so I was 21 years old and she paid what? $2,000 for me to be told you need to go to sleep. And so sleep is free. Um, is, is the one thing, right? And so I like the most basic rest to resting our bodies. I think yes, rest is a privilege. Yes. There's intersectionality. Yes. To all of those things. Yes. Um, you know, I have a special medical, um, issue that prevents me from resting because I know, I know when we're experiencing our chronic pain, sometimes we can't sleep and we just kind of have to lay there.

0:15:38SPEAKER_01 : Right? Um, and so like being aware of all of these things, but I think we can also think of ways to not exacerbate, um, you know, the things that we have to deal with on any given day. I think that's really important and it's something I've been doing for, so I was 21, 19 years. Oh my God. Um, and I worked in big law just to give you some perspective. If you don't know what that is, that's like 90 hours a week. you're supposed to be available every single day. But I remember saying, Hey, I don't do Sundays.

0:16:14SPEAKER_01 : I might do some Saturdays, but I definitely don't do Sundays. And like, I just did what I had to do for myself. And I was doing better than the people that were there seven days a week anyway. And so and I want to say you're right. Can we make it so people don't have to do this resilient thing? For me, hypervigilance, hyperindependence, I think I was 25 when I said to somebody, yo, this shit is overrated. No, I don't want to do that. I don't want to work extra hard when there are people that are not working extra hard and getting more.

0:16:55SPEAKER_01 : That's BS. No, I don't want to work 200% and get 50%. No, go away. That's bogus. Why am I giving you 200% of my effort for 50%? That's absolute nonsense. And so how do we do that? Well, I think places like here, I think talking about it, having these hard conversations, and being willing to do it in real time, being willing to speak up when we have the ability to. instead of shying away because it's not the popular thing, you know?

0:17:26SPEAKER_00 : Yeah, I think that anytime, whether it's the HR department or a doctor or family or friends, whenever there's a prescription of why don't you just, it should probably stop talking. That's kind of the message I'm hearing. Because it's leaning into stereotypes and ignoring a lot of these actual physical realities of who you are as a person, what your job entails, and what your body's doing to you as far as your disability. But a lot of people are really well-intentioned when they're trying to say this. So how do you handle whether it's a boss or a HR department or a doctor or whoever it is, a client who might be well-intentioned but is just woefully uninformed of what it's like?

0:18:12SPEAKER_01 : You can't be well-intentioned if you are uninformed. I'm sorry. If you're not going to educate yourself, don't tell me that you're well-intentioned. because you haven't taken the time to learn. You haven't taken the time to know what's out there, to actually be aware of potential symptoms, to actually be aware of the invisible disabilities. If you haven't taken the time, if you haven't picked up a book, do not tell me that you are well-intentioned, because who are you well-intentioned for? You're well-intentioned for yourself. You're well-intentioned for your results. You're well-intentioned for all these things that don't actually really think about the individual.

0:18:57SPEAKER_01 : I'll, you know, this is my hill. You know, if we're not doing this for people, if all this stuff, all this talking, all this chatting, everything we're doing in every aspect of the world, if it's not for people, we should just burn everything down and go to sleep. Because what else, why are we doing it? Like, are the lions going to take care of us? Come on.

0:19:22SPEAKER_04 : Yeah, I agree. I think that there is a level of ignorance, like willful ignorance when it comes to disability. I think disability is one of those things that people don't really care or think about until it's literally at their doorstep in their front lap. And so there isn't a reason for them to think about it, right? And so I think part of our responsibility is creating the space that we need to succeed in these spaces, right? And so, yeah, people might not be aware of what I have of enclosing spondylitis. And I don't want to speak for Dr.

0:19:56SPEAKER_04 : Kadei, but I have to imagine that at some point in time, somebody has said, well, just do yoga. just do yoga. It'll make all your arthritis go away. It'll make everything better. And it's like, okay, first of all, that was the solution. I didn't need you to tell me that. And second of all, you don't understand what I have and the fact that sometimes doing yoga can actually make it worse. And so I do think that it is part of our own responsibility to change these stereotypes, right? Because what is a stereotype? It's something that helps you make a quick decision.

0:20:29SPEAKER_04 : It's usually in a time of survival. We know this, but Sometimes it's not in times of survival, but still people have stereotypes because we're being bombarded with so many pieces of information at once. So for me, one thing I really like to do when I start a new role or have a new manager is I send them an article about what I have. I said, this is what I have. This is how it manifests. These are the types of symptoms that I have that come along with it. Let me know if you have questions, because at that point, if they don't understand what I need and how it's affecting me, then it's definitely their fault.

0:20:59SPEAKER_04 : And there's nothing I can do about it at that point.

0:21:2SPEAKER_06 : I love the idea of sending an article. There's so many pain scales out there and I really like the Mankowski pain scale. So I always send that to managers and I'm like, hey, this is the pain scale I use because my seven out of 10 is not your seven out of 10. And so when I tell you I'm at an eight, that means I'm like, it's pretty bad. And if I'm at a 10, I'm unconscious. You're kind of understanding this is a great way for me to say like, hey, I'm in a pain flair. I'm out of this.

0:21:34SPEAKER_06 : So I'm going to need this from you. It just kind of helps them put it in context. I do agree, though, that the burden should still be on them. to take that in, understand it, ask questions when they're kind of like, okay, well, I get what you're saying, but I'm missing this context. And something else I wanted to say is I feel like those stereotypes, one example I have is if you go into any stock photos site or stock photos, like resource, and you just search disability, you will see children with Down syndrome, you will see elderly people, and you will see white men in wheelchairs.

0:22:10SPEAKER_06 : That is what you will see. And so that is something I'm surprised did not come up in the Family Feud game, as like a stereotype of like, disability looks one way, or maybe two ways, it looks like you either have Down syndrome, or you're in a wheelchair, like those are your choices for what disability looks like, like, and it's just it's just not accurate. So I think people sometimes don't know where to start. So Grier, I love your idea of like send one article and just be like, let me know if you have questions and then do your own research.

0:22:41SPEAKER_02 : I happen to have a book all about my disability, so folks can read that. It's just one of the things that's in there. But it's important to note, for those who are listening who don't report to a boss or you do your own thing, you have to actually communicate your boundaries, your capacity to the client, to the partners of what happened. So I'm very publicly known as a Black disabled woman, and I can't separate from those three identities. And so I have to let folks. know that. In addition, when it comes to talking about disability, we really have to think about words, right?

0:23:18SPEAKER_02 : So folks are non-disabled, not able-bodied. We have the ability to do things the same way, slightly different or modified. There's that. But when we use words like burden, we're saying that we are the problem. I'm not the fucking problem. I never am. I'm not. If I tell you I have EDS, Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, Google that shit. It's pre 99 to do. So yes, I can say this, you know, here's an article I can give that to if I want to, but I'm telling you what I have or I've done a rundown. Hey, right now, my first rib is out of place.

0:23:48SPEAKER_02 : So I'm having more pain on my left side. Um, so I may be a little bit slower of getting back to you or I had a really bad week. So I'm going to get back to you next week with X, Y, and Z, you know, um, type of things. But when we act as if we're the problem, we're adding into what the systems and structures have already done, which has said we are less than. Now, the other thing that came up is if you think about the symbol in America for someone who is disabled, it doesn't include me.

0:24:14SPEAKER_02 : I am not privileged enough and I don't use a wheelchair at this moment in time. It could happen potentially in my future. I have dynamic disabilities, so some days it's visible, some days it's invisible, so I'm dynamic with it. You'll see me with a cane from time to time, or I have a brace on right now, or maybe a brace on my neck, but I don't have an image that looks like me. So people are conditioned to think, oh, I have to see someone who looks like they're having a hard time, or they talk different, or they're in a wheelchair in order for me to give them accommodations.

0:24:49SPEAKER_02 : Here's the thing. Once we all say we're disabled, you have to give us those accommodations. You can't ask us what we have. You can't do any of that. So whether it is for your employer or you are working with a client, it's all the same thing.

0:25:2SPEAKER_04 : I will say, too, I think it's important to acknowledge that as people who live with disabilities, we embody a lot of the stereotypes as well. So I can say, working on this steering committee, there are people who I have spoken with who never really thought about people with invisible disabilities until we started this conversation. And it's because we are conditioned to also hold stereotypes against ourselves and to hold stereotypes against other people who are disabled as well. And so I think a lot of this visibility and talking about it, it's a practice for us too, to eliminate these stereotypes.

0:25:44SPEAKER_04 : Like I am verbalizing right now how I feel about myself in the workplace and the stereotypes I have about being a disabled person in the workplace. And so It's not just people looking at us. It's those of us living with disabilities looking at ourselves and each other in ways that we're also perpetuating the stereotypes.

0:26:4SPEAKER_00 : Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's where both organizations and the state, the law, has to play a role in both protection and you know, driving against the stereotypes. You know, the ADA is, you know, a big step. It obviously doesn't do enough and is kind of under attack right now, which is a whole other thing. But what are some things, whether it's, you see this and you know it's still a problem in policy or law, or you think like, you know, I would love to see organizations take on this policy because that is really what's going to help people work better because people want to work.

0:26:49SPEAKER_00 : People just want to work. They need to earn a living. And that's what they want to do. So what are some of the ways that we're still seeing barriers in the policies and in the law and where you would like it to go better?

0:27:0SPEAKER_05 : You know, this is such a small one, but can we stop requiring doctor's notes for being sick for more than however many days in our employee handbooks? I'm a person who writes employee handbooks, and I just take that out every time. Because one, we're not asking for them. As an HR person, I have never asked for them. In the circumstances where they are asking for them, I have a lot of questions about what biases are coming up. And also, let's not waste doctors and nurses' times on writing letters to tell people that they can take sick days.

0:27:34SPEAKER_05 : It's such a small thing, but that means it's really easy to do. Just delete that from your handbook right now, y'all.

0:27:42SPEAKER_01 : And really, like, start with... I have this perfect quote. from my field hockey coach, where she forced us to do these one mile runs every day. Every time we had practice, we started off with a one mile run. And of course, some people would fall off. And we would have maybe like three or four people that just couldn't finish that one mile run. And she would always holler from the seats. Hey guys, remember, you're only as strong as your weakest link. And that's always top of mind for me. Like, are we giving everyone everything they need to succeed in the workplace?

0:28:35SPEAKER_01 : Are we putting the right, like, if everybody thought like that, like, I'm only as strong, like, we have a team of three people, we're only as strong as the weakest link, like, how do we, okay, how do we do that while we have these conversations? One, right, to find out what people need to thrive, right? Like, if I need a mid-afternoon nap, like, because I get really tired because I have a weird sleeping disorder that has never been diagnosed. Let me get that. Let me get that 20-minute nap. You don't need to talk to me that badly.

0:29:11SPEAKER_01 : That 20-minute nap is like eight hours for me because you'll be like, dude, you only slept 20 minutes and this is what you're doing. I think that's one thing. I think that We can always be better than the laws, too. This idea of legality, for me, it makes me cringe. It made me cringe before I was an attorney and even more so now when I hear attorneys say, oh, well, under the law, this is okay. And I'm like, that's not the bar. The bare minimum. It's the bare minimum. That's not the bar.

0:29:53SPEAKER_04 : The law is the bare minimum. It shouldn't be the standard, like you're saying. It should be the guardrails around how we want people to act. I mean, what I'm hearing from you, Abria, and just listening to you from an HR and a learning perspective, what I'm really hearing is education and accountability. They're both really, really easy to do internally. People don't know how to act. People don't know how to talk. People don't know what they're supposed to do as managers or leaders or teammates. Teach them and then put mechanisms for reinforcement in. I don't know.

0:30:30SPEAKER_04 : Tie it to people's compensation. I will say this about everything, right? If we're going to look at engagement scores, if we're going to look at performance and productivity and all of these things, why are we not also making sure that people are supported in the ways that they need, and they have the resources that they need to be successful, and they feel like they can bring their whole selves to work. That's where the rubber meets the road. So if we can build in some accountability metrics, those are also free. And you can also do those right now.

0:30:59SPEAKER_05 : I'm in agreement.

0:31:1SPEAKER_04 : Yeah.

0:31:1SPEAKER_05 : And I think kind of building off of what Aubrey is saying, there's a common phrase in DEI work that if you build for the most marginalized, you build for everyone. And we've seen that so much, whether it's curb cuts or closed captioning on videos, like everyone is benefiting from this. And to be clear, I think we should do it whether or not, you know, white people, non-disabled people, et cetera, are benefiting from it. But since we are seeing that everyone's benefiting from it, let's just make the world, and especially our workplaces, because that's what we have a little bit more control over, more accessible.

0:31:35SPEAKER_05 : Let's do it.

0:31:35SPEAKER_01 : No, I think that's right. And it goes back to when I was hit by a car, the spring of my first year of law school and my con law professor. Hey, Bill. Miss you. Love you. You know, he saw me standing at the back of his class and like it was my normal seat and I hadn't talked to him yet. So like at the end, he like kind of looked at me like nodded, like, yeah, we're going to chat after class. Because why are you standing for two hours? And then I get down there and he's like, Oh, no, like, we're just going to record all of these classes.

0:32:11SPEAKER_01 : And I'm going to send an email and we're going to get you whatever you need. And it was like, perfect because like you said everybody got like we needed those recorded con law classes because that man he would ramble on for days and so like just by me being struck by a car I you know I was like a messiah bringing these con law you know lectures recorded for my classmates, you know, I was the fatted calf, you know, and so like, and to me, it goes back to like, for him, like, he could have been like, oh, sorted out.

0:32:51SPEAKER_01 : And you know, it was really awesome, because he did it. All of the other professors did it. Like, we didn't have to go and convince each professor to do it. It was like, oh, Bill's doing it. Okay, cool. Well, we'll record them too.

0:33:7SPEAKER_00 : So what is it that an organization, team leaders, whatever it is, where they can make that transition? They clearly weren't doing that before. Does it have to take someone having an accident and then responding to it? Where's the path from not being Bill to being Bill? What are some of your advices for people who are wanting to do better in their organization?

0:33:32SPEAKER_01 : What I will say is it has to start at the top. I think a lot of times, even in professional development, everything, like, oh, we want to have more diversity, all of these things that we want more of in the workplace, there's this well-being, like people should be well, right? Everyone's seemingly expecting folks that are really low on that pyramid of leadership to roll out and hold people accountable and be taken seriously. But I don't think me as somebody who's been at a company for a year, even though I'm senior in my role, I may not have the social capital to do that.

0:34:23SPEAKER_01 : And so we need the most powerful people in the organization to be the face of a lot of these. programs and also showing showing their work right you know having those conversations like being part of those meetings where where they're actually holding departments accountable for these these systems that they actually want in place to be better. I think you can expect to me, you know, I remember I worked at a place where they collected all of this data. And, you know, I was a bit naive. I thought they were actually going to do something with that data.

0:35:6SPEAKER_01 : And it turned out that no, they were just collecting data.

0:35:12SPEAKER_00 : That's all too common. We've all.

0:35:15SPEAKER_01 : And so Timmy is like, let's move beyond the paperwork. This is why it's burdensome. Because you're doing too much unnecessary paperwork. I think it was Anne who said that. You're just adding more things. Get rid of these extra forms that you don't actually need. and put your best foot forward and say, hey, if I'm going to be in business, if I'm going to have this organization, and let's keep it real. It's not always corporate. Some of these nonprofit organizations, they are the biggest culprits of not doing what they need to do for their employees, whether it's paying them well enough so that they can afford their meds, et cetera, et cetera.

0:35:59SPEAKER_01 : And so what we need to do is actually get in front of the words.

0:36:6SPEAKER_00 : Yeah. And the words are so important. Like Akila was talking, I can't even remember if this was on the recording or not, but she was talking about the language that we use and the language shapes attitudes and so much of the stereotypes, right? People are carrying those attitudes. What are some of the language that we would like to see changed that will help shape the attitudes that will get us to where we want to go?

0:36:30SPEAKER_02 : That was part of the podcast. So wonderful. Glad you got that, Danny. I think we have yet to talk about the fear non-disabled folks have around being disabled, right? And it's that fear that makes this process harder because as disabled people in society and the systems and structures of white supremacy, we are viewed as less than. That is not purposeful. That's actionable. That is the plan, right? So that's why you have those family feud stereotypes of us not being smart, right? Folks need to understand the only thing they can become is disabled and the only thing they will become is disabled.

0:37:12SPEAKER_02 : We're living longer. So it's going to happen. You're going to have a comorbidity. You're going to get something that's chronic, that's going to happen. And so the accommodations that are happening now can be the very accommodations that you may need or a loved one may need tomorrow. Right? I wasn't born disabled. I realize after the fact I've had this thing my whole life, but I wasn't diagnosed until eight years ago. So I'm newer and being part of the disability community. I've had to learn and unlearn a lot of things. I've had to deal with my own internalized ableism.

0:37:40SPEAKER_02 : And all of that comes from the fear of I have seen and been conditioned that we are less than. But I'm like, I have a doctorate. I have three degrees. I run a business. I'm on a Forbes list. I do all of these things. And so again, that's why you'll hear me keep talking about intersectionality. That's why I have a cane on my cover because people don't even think you can be pretty or successful or intelligent or not use a wheelchair. And the list goes on and on to be disabled. And so I know that power and privilege that I have.

0:38:9SPEAKER_02 : And that's why it's always front and center. I don't have to say shit because I can pass. I could have an injury on my wrist or I hurt my, you know, my back, my knee, my ankle using a cane. I have the privilege to do that, but I park in VIP upfront in an ADA spot for a reason. So you can address your bias and your fear and ask me whether or not that's my pass and if I can park there, you know? So we have to keep reminding people that this is their reality. And the more they see people like all of us on this call, and me being a little public figure that I am, that helps do the same thing that has happened to make us feel less than and have the fear of being disabled.

0:38:51SPEAKER_04 : Wow. I would like all of that on a shirt. So when you get your merch done, I'm your first customer because- It's a long coat. Or I could- Blab coming. Yeah, or I'll tattoo that somewhere on my body. I mean, that was phenomenal. I think too, we have to think about One of the things I love to think about is creating a common language, too. And so for me, I'm a big spoon theory gal. You'll always hear me talk about it. And so another free thing you can do immediately at your organization is start to talk about capacity and bandwidth.

0:39:24SPEAKER_04 : Because even if you are a non-disabled person, your capacity and your bandwidth is limited in a lot of ways. And so if we can start a conversation around bandwidth For abled and non-abled people, it's going to benefit everybody. So yeah, in the same sense that Dr. Cadet is saying, it's not a matter of if you're going to become disabled. It's a matter of when, right? When? How? Let's put the systems in place so that you're not scrambling. your family members aren't scrambling when you have to do something for them and so having these conversations creating a common language is the way to start making it more tangible because i think a lot of people don't get involved because they're afraid of doing it wrong.

0:40:10SPEAKER_04 : Right? And as a disabled person, I consistently say, I live with a disability. I am not an expert on disability. And so even for me, I feel sometimes like, am I using the right language? Am I doing this the right way? Am I having the right conversations? Am I including the right people? And so there is an internalized stereotype we have to get over ourselves before we can have other people come along the journey with us.

0:40:37SPEAKER_00 : Yeah, I think that, you know, in philosophy, there's the idea of that common language helps avoid the otherness, right? When people seem foreign and other, it's easy to be scared. And for people not familiar with Greer's spoons theory, it's how many spoons do you have today? Oh, I've got 10 spoons. I'm good to go. This task is going to take one spoon. That task is going to take two. Eventually, no matter what, at the end of the day, you either are out of spoons or you just got a couple of spoons left and you need to go to sleep.

0:41:8SPEAKER_04 : Or I'm in a literal spoon deficit and that's then going to carry on not only to the next day but the next few days. I am somebody who I have to manage my energy every single day. I have to be conscious. I have the best partner in the world. I will say it all the time. But he'll look at me and he'll go, do you have the spoons to wash the dishes right now? Because sometimes washing the dishes takes a spoon. Sometimes showering. Actually, I will say always showering takes a spoon. And then it's another spoon to do my hair and then another spoon to do my makeup.

0:41:41SPEAKER_04 : So that's three spoons where I might only have six spoons for a whole day. Right and so we have to think about return to work policies we have to think about how works having people show up like i'm consistently show up no camera. Because it's a lot of energy for me personally sometimes to show up and be conscious of how i'm looking and especially if i don't feel well right it takes it derails me and so. We have to be conscious and create this language and this way of speaking and like people who aren't disabled, they have limited spoons as well.

0:42:15SPEAKER_00 : Yeah. And I think having that organizationally where people can talk about that freely, it creates a commonality. And I think would hopefully get away from some of that fear of my possible future of being disabled. that fear of our eventual mortality. Boy, this took a great turn. But we do want to wrap up. For my lovely panelists, thank you for joining us. What do you want to leave our folks with who've been listening to this little journey about stereotypes and biases in the workplace?

0:42:50SPEAKER_07 : I want folks to trust lived experiences.

0:42:53SPEAKER_05 : And I say this as a person who was really bad at trusting lived experiences because that's an element of white supremacy. That's an element of ableism. And I'm really grateful for my feminist education in college that taught me to trust lived experiences. because one, it's the right thing to do, but two, it's also just easier. If you're spending time trying to disprove someone's lived experience or say, no, I don't wanna use that language that you're telling me to use, that's taking up spoons. When people tell you something about their lived experience, there's no reason for them to be making up a story, just trust it.

0:43:34SPEAKER_00 : Wow, that would do so much. Aubrey, Akilah, any last thoughts?

0:43:40SPEAKER_01 : I'll say it's going to sound kind of hippie, but lead with love. I think we have to first love ourselves before we can love others. And so loving everything about ourselves I think is really important. And then loving people as we love ourselves. And this is why we have to love ourselves first. Because if I don't love me, I don't really care about you. That's just because I can't care. I can't care for anybody more than I care about myself. I know that sounds good in the rom-coms, but that's not actually a real thing. And so, you know, we have to take the time to do the deep work for ourselves, you know, and learn about ourselves and be willing to just learn about other experiences, you know, taking people at face value until new evidence arrives, because sometimes new evidence arrives.

0:44:42SPEAKER_01 : You can't you can't fake a lot of these things that we're talking about. It's kind of hard. It's hard to fake chronic pain. OK, like people going to figure you out quick and in a hurry. And so and so to me, you know, get to that place where we just want to spread more love and encouragement and support and less of whatever it is we're doing right now.

0:45:9SPEAKER_00 : Yeah. lots of skepticism and distrust. Let's do the opposite of that.

0:45:15SPEAKER_02 : You can use your spoon for ice cream. Just a fun fact. It is really important to understand your intersectionality because that's where you can start to advocate for yourself and then advocate for others. So like Aubrey saying oxygen mask on yourself first before you're taking care of others, right, is really important. And then for those who see disabled people, and those who are disabled. Just want to remind you what my sweater says, my black sweater and white letter says, keep being amazing. So just remember that. It's not lost on me that brushing teeth is hard, putting on deodorant is hard.

0:45:55SPEAKER_02 : I live in a home that has steps inside. Steps are hard, you know? So the simple fact that we are here today and that we are advocating for others and we continually do this work in spaces and places that do not see us, that is nothing short of amazing. So every day you're up and you're present, good for you.

0:46:12SPEAKER_00 : I love that. It's such an honoring way, not patronizing. It's truly great that people are showing up, working so hard, showing that resilience, working to a point where they can get rest. It's hard out there, y'all. Keep working, keep coming back, keep listening, keep sharing with each other, supporting each other.

0:46:32SPEAKER_06 : I just had a very quick thought, which is basically if we're talking about disability in the workplace, I think the biggest takeaway I'd say is that reframe accommodations as like a standard practice. It's not a special treatment. It's not like a nice extra bonus that disabled people get. Y'all have heard me talk about this a lot. Everybody gets accommodations. They just look different. If you have an employee who says like, hey, I really need this morning to do some deep work and then let's catch up in the afternoon, you're accommodating their schedule. That's an accommodation, even if they're not disabled.

0:47:11SPEAKER_06 : It's all business. It's all personal. It's all just part of the human experience that we accommodate each other. So accommodations at work, that stereotype that they're super costly, they're usually not. They're usually about a very, very small shift in working styles.

0:47:32SPEAKER_07 : Wow.

0:47:34SPEAKER_01 : And if you have money for happy hours, I've seen how much those costs you can afford. You can afford special accommodations. They don't have to be general.

0:47:47SPEAKER_00 : That's incredible. And they build such more camaraderie to have everybody actually feel included and like they can do their work there as opposed to happy hour where it's all awkward and you hope someone doesn't drink too much. Thank you all for listening. Thank you all for joining us. That's it for this episode of Rethinkability. You don't look disabled, stereotypes were still fighting. A huge thank you to our incredible panelists, Dr. Akhila Kadeh, Annie Diemer, Aubria Ralph, Greer Prosich, and Leah Sate. Your wisdom, passion, and practicality really made this conversation fantastic. If you found this conversation encouraging or thought provoking, please let us know in the comments.

0:48:28SPEAKER_00 : And share this wherever you can. This podcast is proud to collaborate with the Invisible Condition and the Performance Innovation Collective. These three communities work separately and together to help people thrive in workplaces everywhere they can. If you have thoughts, feedback, or your own story to share, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at elephant at thefearlesspx.com and check the show notes for LinkedIn links of all our brilliant guests. Be sure to follow and subscribe because our next episode is coming out soon. And finally, from all of us at the Fearless PX and the Elephant in the Org, Marion Anderson, Koshadora, and myself, Danny Glutch.

0:49:8SPEAKER_00 : Thank you for listening, reflecting, and doing the work to rethink ability. We'll see you next time. Strength in the unseen Power in every voice This is the sound of breaking bias Rethinkability